Camp -- Could it be that for a time in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, the Brits COULD grow Teas? Because, if it's not that, it almost has to be that they were grown under glass. (I gather that parts of Cornwall are good for Teas. Reading about Heligan was fascinating.)

The Cant's were an interesting family. There was, apparently, a really bitter rivalry between old Ben Cant and his younger nephew.

FROM HMF:
Nursery established by Frank Cant in the early 1880s. After learning the trade from his uncle Ben R. Cant, Frank Cant set up his own nursery in Colchester, which led to a feud lasting until 1967, when both nurseries were united under the name of "Cants of Colchester".

[From A Rose Odyssey, p. 111:]
Frank Cant is probably of the same family, but there seems to be a feud between the two houses. The firm was established in the early eighties. Frank Cant, who died in late 1928...Frank Cant was considered the premier rose grower of England...The traditions of the family are carried on by two sons, Sidney and Captain Harvey Cant.

[From "The Rose" Spring 1994:] Sidney Harvey-Cant's widow Mona Cant married Mr. Blyth, their field manager. Mona Cant retired when the company merged with Benjamin R. Cant & Sons to form Cants of Colchester. Mr. Clive Roberts, who had joined Frank Cant & Sons after the war, remained active in the running of the merged company until 1985, when he retired.
=========

Sounds like the nephew was more successful than the uncle, doesn't it?

Jeri

Teas were all the rage in late Victorian to Edwardian Britain, Camp. It was still the time of the landed gentry who had staffs and space under glass in which and with which to raise them for the flower shows. WW I and the arrival of the more cold hardy HTs put an end to much of that. The world changed. The HTs provided the high-centered flower shape the Teas introduced, only on plants which could more frequently be planted and left in place, eliminating the need for greenhouse space and people required to lift, move and maintain the tender plants.

You're right, once that creative spark is extinguished, it's virtually impossible to reignite. Few share the same vision and imagination of the originator. It's actually more than a little surprising future generations maintain the operations. Nurseries, like gardens, very seldom outlive their creators. Kim

As I remember, in one of Gertrude Jekyll's books on roses she devoted at least a chapter to roses in places like the south of France where the well-to-do English kept vacation homes (i.e. another mansion) to spend the damp and chilly English parts of the year. Teas and chinas would have loved it there, so that might have been another market in addition to the glassed-in plant rooms that many houses in England, even in the more prosperous middle class homes, boasted of.

Ingrid

Let's consider the many thornless mini-roses, and the varied origins of mini-roses, ranging from China to floribunda. Ralph Moore is truly a creative genius.

Kim Rupert (Roseseek) continues with that creative spark. Yesterday I pruned all my roses - they were all beastly thorny nuisances, except for Annie L. McDowell ... which were a joy to prune. American Yankee innovation is still at work.

There's the creative genius of Dr. Basye, professor of math at Texas A &M .... who created Belinda's Dream and Basye Blueberry.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Basyes and Disease Resistant roses

What a very interesting thread. I wish I had something great to add. I just want to express my apreciation.

Camp - You are certainly correct about teas not being in rose books (except in dismissive terms). I remember being very frustrated about this - one author even said that they were completely of no use whatever, except as historic examples of the roses that were one parent of the hybrid teas!

However, those of us who are in warm climates were saved a few years ago when the 5 tea rose ladies in Australia published the amazingly wonderful book "Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens". The amount of research they did is amazing, and the pictures of the "mystery" teas in Australia (which cannot be imported into the US) caused me more frustration, but there are plenty of teas in the book that are available here.

Anyway, if you can find it in a library (or ask for it for Chirstmas or something - it is on Amazon, but for $55US), I do think you would enjoy reading it - their stories of how they identified many old teas growing all over Australia are hilarious, and it is full of lots of good technical info.

My favorite story is about a rose that was called "Countess Bertha" in Australia. A rose person from another country said it might be "Comtesse de la Barthe" (aka Duchesse de Brabant), but how could that name possibly be corrupted into "Countess Bertha". The author immediately said "Oh, Australians could do that!".

Jackie

Camp -- that's lovely. I'll come back and read it again.

Look, HERE, we had the same books you did -- the joker in the deck is: we, here, live where Teas SHOULD be grown. But the books didn't tell us that. No, we muddled along, trying to grow HPs and Bourbons and the like -- because of the books.

The Tea Rose book helps -- but we still deal with disinformation.

OK.

But I wonder. Isn't your climate warming? Aren't they growing grapes there, again?

Jeri

Camp -- that's lovely. I'll come back and read it again.

Look, HERE, we had the same books you did -- the joker in the deck is: we, here, live where Teas SHOULD be grown. But the books didn't tell us that. No, we muddled along, trying to grow HPs and Bourbons and the like -- because of the books.

The Tea Rose book helps -- but we still deal with disinformation.

OK.

But I wonder. Isn't your climate warming? Aren't they growing grapes there, again?

Jeri

I expect we could....if we could find any. The real shocker is that there is 1 (yes just 1) grower selling tea roses in the UK - Peter Beales. The wildly encouraging thing is that his nursery is less than 6 miles from my wood! A mere bicycle ride. The less encouraging part is the wood itself - although the southern edge is clear across water meadows, woodland is not a natural home for tea roses.
With Peter Beale's death earlier this year, the propagation of teas is on an extremely fragile footing. I suspect they do have a few devotees, especially in the southern counties....but I also believe that it was stubborness and a deeply personal decision of Mr.Beales to grow these roses - hope his daughter will be continuing. The slender handful of growers who do deal in old roses grow almost exclusively once flowering Europeans and a handful of bourbons..... although many people in the UK conflate old roses with ramblers and climbers - we are quite comfortable with Albertine, Madame Alfred, and the trove of enormous white ramblers such as Wedding Day and Bobbie James.
There has been an increasing interest in heirloom seeds (on both sides of the atlantic) but has tended to translate into a search for fruits and vegetables while flowers and shrubs are relegated to the second division. I tend to sit on the fence a bit since I grow a mix of open pollinated veggies (mainly so I can save the seeds) but also swear by some of the F1 varieties (for the health and vigour which is inbuilt) - yes, the taste of an heirloom tomato is nice...but no use at all if the row has gone down to blight. Moreover, while the fuss about organics rattles on: I have come to believe that there is NO difference in the organic-ness of a vegetable (taste-wise) - it is in the cultivation and the freshness where we get the real joy of growing your own....although there are big caveats when comparing home grown anything against intensive agriculture of monocrops.
Back to teas (it is hard to stick to the point, discussing horticulture since there are so many overlaps), I feel compelled to attempt at least one variety - a visit to Attleborough in June may well decide which one to choose as I would really be cross with myself if I lost the chance because of dithering (and yep, have been here before, pondering a tea to try, but bottled it at the last minute and bought another Hebe's Lip instead (for some reason, I was really hopeless striking cuttings on that one).

Obviously those Victorian British wanted to be Southerners in the US, so they bred the perfect rose for us :)

On the subject of teas, it is just amazing for me to see how easy they are to grow in my climate. I wouldn't say they grow like "weeds", but close to it. I rarely have any trouble growing any of them. Compare that to trouble I have with polyanthas and bourbons, for example (except for China Doll and a couple others). They will grow here, but require some effort, while the teas are nearly effortless.

I was talking to the "rose person" at a very well-regarded nursery here this spring. Of course, they offer very very few OGR's of course. I mentioned tea roses and how easy they were to grow here, and he said, "but they only bloom once per year", or something to that effect. I tried to explain, "no tea roses bloom all year long", but I doubt he heard or wanted to hear. EEYYYY, drives me crazy!!!

Jasper -- I've lived that nightmare. :-(
For decades.

Jeri

I will be very interested to hear which tea(s) the Beales people recommend for your wood. I'm pulling for Mrs B R. She is so vigorous and probably fairly hardy that maybe she won't mind your shorter, cooler season.

Today as I was tidying up after the latest armadillo assault in the back garden, DH was sitting on the red bench, and I mentioned your observation that the Cants haven't followed through on their rose-hybridizing heritage. He astutely made the connection with his one-time vocation, antique clock repair. Try as he might, he was never able to interest his son's in his "hobby", and the number of working clock repairmen gets smaller and smaller. Passing on a passion or even an ongoing business to the next generation is harder than one might think. It made me think of the generations of David Austin (II, III and even IV, I think) and what an amazing thing it is that each son's son has had the rose bug bite his heart, continuing the old passion with more passion. I remember a long time ago on this forum people saying that David Austin was just a good marketer (maybe you were one, Suzy), but I think it's obvious that that family is seriously in love with roses. There is also the Meilland family still at it after 100 years or more. And others in France, I'm sure. Too bad Uncle and Nephew Cant had their falling out. I just checked for MBRC's descendants and found that there are only three, a climbing sport and two recent Gigantea hybrids by M.S. Viraraghavan in India. Unbelievable that such a fantastic rose is almost childless. I wonder how many hybridizers tried. Just in the last week or so I saw Girija post this photo of one of them on Facebook. You'll love it! It's a single.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.205350

Sherry

P.S. People that don't "get" the distinctiveness of Tea roses do seem to be a hard-headed lot, resistant to even trying them (assuming they're in an appropriate zone). I have relatives who habitually refer to HT's as tea roses. Makes me grind my teeth. I don't bother correcting them anymore. It's useless. Of course, if the garden centers/nurseries carried them - hey, this is Florida! - they might choose them, but the nursery people are clearly just as ignorant. Hmmm, my teas are about to burst forth in bloom. Maybe I should carry photos around to the nurseries and show them what they're missing.

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

David Austin roses have only been around since the late 60s - although DA comes from a farming family. He does have a son who has followed him in the family business and a daughter who specialises in bearded iris. However, in Europe, rose families have been continuing for several generations (Kordes, Poulsen, Meilland, Fryers, Cants, Harkness) - this longevity seems less likely in the US, at least as far as rose families go. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. Very frustrating for your better half, Sherry, to pass on knowledge which was no doubt hard earned and also useful (all manual dexterity is an asset and coupled with technical expertise, it becomes almost priceless) - this seems to be fairly common, that our children are reluctant to step in the footsteps of their parents unless a thriving business already exists.
At the moment, the wood is a completely blank space (in my head) - although I am already growing some plants, I still have only the broadest idea of what we might do - that is, in fact, one of the most thrilling aspects of this whole thing - everything is just a possibility, infinitely elastic, no deadlines, no plans.

I've been looking through Paul Zimmerman's new book and was very encouraged at his clear description of tea roses and how they differ from hybrid teas. Maybe this will help with some of the confusion about the differences. It's a good step, don't you think?

Someone earlier [sorry forgot the name, with all the posts here] mentioned teas growing in Cornwall, England. When I lived there I grew Beales Mons. Tillier which I think should now be called 'Marie Nabonnand' and is no longer available here, which is a shame. It grew into a lovely large gangly bush, continuous flowering...

Don't ever believe anyone who says roses don't grow well in Cornwall. I had a whole garden full of them. Shelter from S.W. winds was important I think.. Garden soil full of clay, maximum 6 inches top soil, rest pure white China Clay underneath - horrible stuff, but they all thrived... except one called 'Agathe Incarnata', I wouldn't try that one again...

This post was edited by Marlorena on Sun, Apr 7, 13 at 18:44