Yep, sounds about right. I don't grow many Pembertons, and this is exactly why. The Kordes HMs are a bit hardier, and would probably have handled those temperatures fine.

They are not considered very hardy here. I grow a few of them as I live near the coast, but no way they would do well inland, near the Alps. And they are all with south-exposure.
They also do not like the wind...

Instead, you should consider roses by Kordes, as mad gallica suggests, and you should also consider rugosa roses (my favourite group btw): you could grow a magnificent and reblooming rugosa-garden mixing the larger and the smaller sorts, such as the tall Roseraie de l'Hay and the small Dagmar Haartrup.

Kathleen was tip-hardy for me at zero F, so maybe she's hardier than the other Pembertons.

It's been a brutal winter for sure...Cornelia and Buff Beauty have considerable dieback(almost to the ground!) Sally Holmes looks completely dead but Penelope and Felicia seem to have survived rather nicely along our backyard fence with a western exposure, however along that same fenceline, my beloved 15 year old Cecile Bruner,cl. is 100% dead(grafted) Bummer!

Some great suggestions for you here-- maybe Lavender Dream or Lyda Rose would be better? Kordes shrub Sparrieshoop for sure. We saw temps in the teens twice here & none of these had any dieback at all-- we're normally in the 30's or 40's at night so teens were a shock. I am growing Vanity and Cornelia but too soon to report on how those cope with our high winds and occ. cold snaps.

There have been quite a few recommendations for Kordes Hybrid Musks... are the Kordes HMs as graceful as the Pembertons? I've not really considered Kordes.... I've got Erfurt, howevever, and I think that may be Kordes.

Robert

Thanks to you all.
I have been redoing my research and it is Botannica that gives a Zone 4 to the Hybrid Musks. I am used to that book being generous in its evaluations but really! None of my other books mention them being tender though except Vintage-how did I miss that-they say mainly good to 15 degrees-that seems about right. Of the lot Thisbe and Moonlight came through is good shape-I wonder why?
As for the Kordes-Lavender Lassie was one of the worst hit and Rostock is a goner-but it was in a pot so that probably contributed. At least it is not just me.
I already grow plenty of cold hardy roses-I have maybe 30 Rugosas which I also love and I dont know how many Gallicas and Mosses-none of them cared a bit of course.
I think it is interesting that my Noisettes came through just fine-except Blush Noisette had a little top damage-not too bad.
Robert-I dont think the Kordes in general are as attractive in growth habit-they are often angular and the thorns are large-compared to Cornelia for instance which is the sort I like best. I think Erfurt is supposed to be more relaxed. I should give that one a try perhaps.
Flowerpower- I feel your pain about your Cl CB-I grow-or perhaps grew?-the whole family-shrub, spray and Cl and they are badly damaged..I expected that as I know they are tender. My Polyanthas in general were hit but fortunately we had deep snow and they are short.
anyway thanks to you all again. I am writing an article on winter damage for our Northwest Antique Rose group and needed some more input.

patricia

HMsk can be grown as dieback shrubs like HTs, so maybe that's what Botanica is thinking about.

patricia,

I don't think we got as cold as you--we were down in the low teens with a lot of 20s, but my HMs fared better than a lot of the others--Buff Beauty looks as good as the gallicas. Lyda Rose has a little damage, but I don't think it was the cold--looks like a bit of canker possibly on one cane. Jeri Jennings is ok. Bubble Bath and Dr Robert Korns are brand new and just starting to show signs of life, but I think they made it through fine--maybe a little tip dieback.

Several other roses really got hit--don't know if they'll recover--but the HMs seemed to fare better than most.

I have 3 Penelopes and 3 or 4 Ballerinas, and they are fine in Tulsa, zone 7A.

I think what is almost as important as the winter weather is how well they are established. If we have a super cold winter, I may lose more of my first year roses than usual.

Sammy

Sammy
Most of my Hybrid Musks have been in the ground for several years-up to 9 years..I would say the average is 5 years. They are well established and are half grafted and half own root. Nothing there...I thought to check HMF and they are all listed as zone 6. Therefore I am still preplexed..or I have to think that the zone listings are in error. We had a deep snow cover and it is obvious in some of my roses where the snow line was...makes me nervous to get a true zone 7 winter for some of my supposedly zone ready roses.
Lucretia-I have a Bubblebath out there somewhere-in a pot-you give me hope...patricia

This info won't help your question but helps with relative hardiness. I planted and tested through winter protection all the ones Pickering had and these are still left and bloom with ages and number of zone 3 winters varying from 4 to 6 years (Felicia from Austins OGR nursery)... of course growth is nothing like you get.

Ballerina
Danae
Felicia
Lavender Lassie
Menja
Mozart
Nymphenburg
Paul's Himalayan Musk - 1 year and not a bit of damage over winter but against a south wall
Skyrocket (Wilhelm)

Thank you all-I continue to collect information...glad to hear that Bubblebath is so hardy-it is buried in the Ghetto... thankyou Riku-any information is useful..if you can grow them protected...

patricia

The HM I grow has never suffered any damage, even when we have dropped below 0. It is a Lens rose called Sweet Bouquet, aka Focus. It was planted directly as a band from Heirloom. I needed a step ladder to prune this year.

I have Francesca coming this Spring. I've heard reports that it's hardy to my zone and maybe even 5.

Eric

The only Hybrid Musk I grow is Danae. New last Spring (bareroot) and put on a bit of growth but not much. I am zone 5 (near Toronto, Canada) and when I bought her, I knew that she was rated hardy to Zone 7. I mounded some shredded cedar mulch around the base for the winter, and left her. Came back this Spring to find her alive. Cane dieback, to be sure, but about 2/3 of each cane is still alive. She is against a gazebo, which may help shield some of the harsh wind from the north. But with some shielding and winter protection, she seems hardy enough up here. I also grow Celine Forrestier, another rose that is not supposed to be hardy up here. With the same mulch around the base and no gazebo to protect her, she comes through the winters. Lots of cane dieback (i prune her back to about 2 ft tall in the Spring), but she'll grow past 6-7 feet in the summer and cover my archway. Don't know if this helps . . .

I grow HM in zone 6b and have found them hardy here with lows averaging 10F, but probably not as severe this year. I think this year I got a quite a bit of top damage on Felicia,but she had been struggling with BS all summer and went into winter weakened, just had to do some light pruning and shaping as necessary on BB, Cornelia, Ballerina, Darlow's Enigma.

Oh yeah, Darlow's Enigma. I forgot about that one. Yes it is probably even more hardy than Bubble Bath, no dieback at all. Love it! I keep forgetting it is classified as a Hybrid Musk.
Here's Darlow, just down the fence apiece from Bubble Bath
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My HMs (BB, Cornelia, Lavender Lassie, Nur Mahal, Kathleen, Felicia) are all in pots in a mulch pile, where they've been for over a year, waiting for their piece of earth to be graded and amended. They survived our Zone 7 winter in Central VA well, as did the gallicas, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Marchesa Boccelli, & White Pavement in the same mulch pile. Julia Child, sadly, did not make it.

Here is Sweet Bouquet cascading over my garden bench.

{{gwi:233503}}

Harry, how is the fragrance on Sweet Bouquet...good I'm assuming from the name? I may try this one as it's obviously doing well for you in zone 6. Also, is that Rose de Rescht to the right of the bench?

Eric

Finally! A mention of the Louis Lens "hybrid musks," most of which are hybrid multifloras. All are graceful. I'd expect them to be more hardy. I've read Plaisanterie described as hardy to Zone 4, altho I don't know for a fact it's true.

Plaisanterie, Bouquet Parfait and Focus (sold by Heirloom under the name Sweet Bouquet) are all great plants. Also other complicated hybrids by Louis Lens: Tapis Volant, huge and spectacular in the spring, but not fabulous in rebloom, Bukavu, Gravin Michel d'Ursel, Jacqueline Humery, Rosalita, Rosy Purple, Verdi.... the list goes on and on. They are hard to come by in the USA, but they are out there.

If Plaisanterie really is hardy to zone 4, I'd a) be surprised and b) want it. My experience with Lens HMs was underwhelming enough that it's totally irrelevant to my life that they are hard to find.

BTW, with the exception of Darlow's Whatever It Is (and I don't think it's a hybrid musk) none of them have been remotely hardy enough to worry about growth habits. Things that die back that much only have one growth habit - up.

Eric,
I can smell it. It smells nice. There is a musk note I think. No rose seems really strong to me.

That is a Rose de Rescht sucker child growing to right of the bench.

MG, I have a sucker child of Sweet Bouquet getting started in a pot. The next time I visit in NY I might just bring it to you. How close are you to Red Hook?

{{gwi:231141}}

We're near Bard, ideally situated between the Bard sports camps and the rec park, and not too far from the middle and high school ballfields. If you do come visit, I can probably find you some siberian iris, among other things...

You're on MG! I would be curious to see if this HM can survive up there.

I have been most intrigued by these comments. I am growing quite a few HMs in both 6a and 6b. The 6a plants are too new to really evaluate. Buff Beauty and Cornelia have been through two winters and look fine. Felicia was a stunted plant but is now recovering well.

Eleven more (from various breeders including five from Lens) were planted last fall and all survived winter. In this same winter and location, Berries n Cream, Comtesse de Provence and White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth all died to the ground.

In my 6b garden my only death ever has been Daybreak during its first winter in a very exposed site. Other results in this garden:

Pembertons doing very well:
Nur Mahal, Thisbe

Doing well: Francesca

Pembertons with too much shade and not impressive: Cornelia, Prosperity

Since the fatal temperatures reported here are not as low as what mine experience and survive easily, I wonder whether the Pemberton HMs have a special dislike for wet feet when dormant.

Regina

Hmmmm...I have plenty to digest here..
Regina-alas it is not as simple as drainage-though we get lots of rain I live on a gravel hill and value every bit of clay inclusion that I have.
I love that Sweet Bouquet....yum..I think I need that one.

patricia

I don't really know about roses but with a lot of the border pushing tropicals that I grow their winter hardiness is dependent upon summer heat. With a good hot, long summer (which is about the only kind we ever get) they can withstand a lot more cold. If you had a cool or cooler than usual summer and then a colder than usual winter perhaps that might have affected them. We had a teens and a ton of 20's but my hybrid musks came through fine (moonlight, cornelia, clytemnestra). yolana

^ Apparently summer heat is a factor with some roses as well. Tea roses that might survive zone 6-7 winters in the US may not be hardy in zone 8 areas of the UK.

Wet winters and springs are a factor in making roses less hardy in the eastern US than in the West. Canker disease is part of winter damage in my garden.

Finally, big temperature swings in the winter are a huge factor. Here, tender roses can start into growth during any winter month and always too early in March.

Now that is very interesting. We did have a very cool year. Spring was so late that when I returned from 3 weeks in Germany in mid June my spring flush hadn't even started. It was wet(normal) and cold(not)We never had the usual summer dry spell and it never got really hot. I have no luck with Tea roses here. They do not freeze, they just get The Dwindles. The Director of Sangerhausen where they do grow Teas with colder temps thought it had to do with soil temperatures. Warmer spring soil got them growing and theirs did better in warmer springs. Thank you both for that insight.

patricia

I think there is something to warmer soil temperatures as well. I'm thinking that if I mulch too heavily, the soil stays too cool for some of the Teas. If the earth is more exposed for them, they seem to do better. This is a very early observation, so take it as such.

Robert

I've grown many hybrid musks both Pemberton and Louis Lens and find the Pembertons do not thrive for me. The Lens' roses have a nice bushy shape with smaller leaves and are hardier with almost no winter dieback. The Lens' roses are very healthy, too. The Pembertons are rather awkward growing whereas most of the Lens' could almost be classified as landscape roses. One rose, Petit Rat de l' Opera, should be more widely grown - similar to Ballerina but without the blackspot.
This was the worst winter kill ever for my roses. It seems every day I have to lop off a cane (older ones). Many grew new leaves and even had buds on them and suddenly died. I think it was a late hard frost not the winter cold that did them in.

Darlows Enigma is, indeed, a hybrid musk, and it was one of my hardiest roses through a brutal winter here in northern Illinois. I also have Cornelia and Lavendar Lassie, and they hade cane dieback but are coming back real nicely.

Forgot to say that all were bands planted in the ground, new to me just last year.

I have all sort of HMs and they all made it thru both the winter and then the late freeze. Some had a bit of die back, but nothing to worry about. It was my Chinas that got creamed this year.

The Dwindles....I fully intend to steal that one.

Just for the record, Focus has powerful myrrh scent. I have it planted close to Bouquet Parfait, and the scent floats on the air, so I don't mind that Bouquet Parfait is scentless.

greenhaven - I can't remember planting a band directly into the garden and have it survive the winter. Usually they are potted up into a one gallon pot and grown on first. Unless it is a vigorous rose, it is potted up again to a two gallon size pot before planting.

subrosa, what can I say? It can be done. I have pretty good soil, so roots have an excellent opportunity to gorw in before winter comes. If I had bad soil I would pot them first. Some I do pot, but because I don't know exactly where (or when) they are getting planted.

Last summer I direct-planted eight bands, all lived.

About eight years ago, we went to a rose thing up in Ohio and a lovely lady from near Columbus gave a talk about her Hybrid Musks. About all the hybrid musks she'd been growing for a couple of decades. No one in the audience questioned the hardyness of them. Maybe consistency of winter could be important.

I planted Lavender Lassie against a fence with very little sunlight and it didn't do much for 2 years but this summer! wow! huge & covered in beautiful pinky/mauve flowers & frequently blooming with a nice scent. my husband and i can't get over how beautiful it is. no winter coverage or anything (im a plant and go kinda gardener :) Buff Beauty did not make it.

Consistency could be the clue-it certainly makes a difference in Perennials...so that if it gets that cold it needs to stay cold which it never does here but goes up and down all through the winter. We frequently have very warm spells in February. I was looking through my low temp records and had 18 degrees in March after 30's and even high 40's in February. food for thought.

patricia

My recollections of life near Ohio is mostly of very dry winters. It wasn't that is necessarily got cold and stayed cold, but that snow accumulation was fairly rare, so the warm spells didn't automatically mean everything turned into a mud hole. It was definitely a much easier climate on HTs than here, and it wouldn't shock me if other 'modern' roses agreed with the HTs.

Here, we could have a temperature of 45°F 365 days of the year.

Well, my Bubblebath turned out to be mislabelled (I think it's actually Cornelia) so that's not a good data point.

I've planted all my bands directly into the ground. I like to order/put them in around September when we start to get decent rain. They go dormant and grown roots all winter, then really take off in the spring. I've planted well over 100 roses this way, and only lost a few (and those looked like the roots were really too tiny for them to have been sold.) It probably all depends on where you live and what your soil & weather conditions are. I put some in later this spring due to some various sales, and they haven't done nearly as well as the fall planted bands. Of course, we've been having ridiculously dry weather--only about 1/3" total rain for the last 3 months, and NOTHING is like rain for watering the plants.

Thank you all....I can see still no concensus. I am being asked to do a follow up on the article I wrote. What can I say but that the jury is still out. The damaged bushes are recovering. I got some replacements to try out in some different spots. I have lots to think about and some new things to try...I apparently need Sweet Bouquet-and some Louis Lens. Of course this may never happen again-it was an unusually awful winter.

patricia

This is great information, I'm thinking of reccomending a few Hybrid Musks to my Aunt, who lives in Kodiak, Alaska, where winter tempetures stay above 25 degrees F.
Lux.