Is it possible to grow enough food?

12 years ago

Greetings all:

I live in the Great Plains, surrounded in all directions for many 10's of thousands of acres, by agronomic crops and pasture. You could literally drive in any direction at 60 mph for many hours on end and still be seeing grain fields on both sides of the road. Yep, this country produces an enormous amount of grain which we in the US consume and the rest of the world relies on too.

For decades, all of this grain production has been accomplished with synthetic fertilizers that supplied the N, P and K needs of the crops.

sometimes I wonder, aware of this vast grain producing area if it would be possible to produce anywhere near as much grain using state of the art organic (for the soil part) methods. It seems there isn't any where near enough organic material to do the job even with cover cropping and manure additions. A great many animals are raised here on pasture and finished in feed lots yet the amount of manure they produce is tiny compared to the amount of land that surrounds them. It would require an enormous amount of energy to truck in and apply organics to all this ground out here. So, where is the organic supply of just the N, P and K supposed to come from?

I suppose we could simply not produce nearly as much grain and allow land to lay fallow and/or cover cropped for years on end, that would help the soil but not produce much grain.

Some say we need to increase the organic content of the soil, calculate out how much organic material it would take to raise the %O.M. of 1000 acres and you'll find out real quick the sort of dilemma I'm contemplating. One thousand acres of land out here is chump change, so to speak.

It is not at all my intent here to rag on organic production, just point out the corner we have backed ourselves into as a species...keep going with the current farming methods that got us here or, it seems to me, shrink the world population way back and switch to organic.

It would be a wonderful thing if everybody had their own garden but there again, I have to scrounge for enough O.M. from the trees around here just to keep my garden going and those leaves can no longer blow into the creek bottoms and other good places for them to be. I can get manure from a friends feed lot which is great for me but now there is less for his fields. In short, there is only so much O.M. to go around and no excess it seems to me, so, what are we to do in addition to cover cropping?

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (66)

Kimmsr
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The sources of synthetic N, P, and K are finite, so what will be done when those resources are no longer available?
The problem, today, is not quantity of food but distribution. Even when tons of food stuffs are delivered to many places suffering famine that food soes not reach those it is intended for.
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Biochar has basically zero nutrients. It is an excellent matrix for holding minerals and fungi.
Related Discussions
Is compost enough food?
Q
Comments (15)
to follow up on compost for the garden results: I might change my answer that compost is enough because we had different results last year when we moved the garden & built new raised beds in a recently cleared area. Our 1st garden in the new location with a lot more sunlight had amazing growth as compared to a few hundred feet away. We joked that with sunlight you can grow anything & there must be some truth to that though some of the stunted growth in the old garden was from the tall conifer roots soaking up the moisture & nutrients. I moved our rhubarb one day in late March to the new spot outside of the raised beds & observed incredible growth all season. Granted the plants were larger last year than 5 years ago when first planted, but still it was an amazing difference from 2013 to last year 2014 in the new spot. You'd think the plants would have been stunted by digging them up, but because my soil was so loose from the compost amendments it was easy to keep the clumps intact & cart them over to the new spot with the clump of soil attached then I just mulched around after planting. Where before I would wonder what was wrong with my rhubarb that wasn't huge yet like my dad's now I know it was lacking sunlight not nutrients. Mulch & occasional watering was all we did for the rhubarb back in the old garden & the new spot. I won't spread my compost on it because applying manure when dormant in fall and early winter is easily composted by spring with the rain washing the nutrients down into the soil. I save the compost for mulching in early summer when the soil has warmed.
...See More
Best place to grow food on Big Island
Q
Comments (6)
I used to Freecycle here, but it's gotten full of flakes who want something for nothing--they post endless "WANTEDs" then don't show up when you make arrangements with them. Not really trenches; long paths where the rock is broken up. To plant, you move some rocks to make a hole, and fill with mulch and amendments. There are lots of natural cracks in lava, so drainage isn't generally an issue. The only pig I've seen on our property was our neighbor's pet. Haven't seen him in a while, think he got eaten. But there are wild pigs here, and many gardens are ravaged. The only other mammals are rats, mice, and mongoose (brought here to control the rats, but rats come out at night and mongoose are daytime animals, so it didn't work out). A mouse ate all my sprouting seeds in the greenhouse once, but that's the only garden-rodent problem we've had. Our cats think it's great fun to bring mice into the house for a nice chase, but that's a whole other issue. We garden in patches, a little bit here and there, couldn't say how big. Haven't tried rice or grain, have heard some people grow amaranth. Yes, organic, yes, fewer pests in the cooler areas. It hasn't gotten below about 45 degrees F while I've been here at our house, and my weather-nut husband says 40 is as low as it goes, but there are stories that it actually snowed here once many years ago. Might be true, maybe not. More likely to frost in Volcano, but I don't actually know. It is too cold up there for me. VOG (acidic Volcanic smOG) is more of an issue around the park than it is here. The VOG seems to flow down the mountain through natural low channels, so if you're in one of those, you'll have it worse (we aren't). Lottta pigs in the forest reserve. Where there are pigs, there are hunters, who not only bring their guns, but fire them. Gunshots are common here. Incidentally, this area (well, much of Puna) is referred to as the Wild West. Police response time is slow (like half an hour or so) and some people here don't believe laws apply to them. Loose dogs, pilfering (and stealing!), loud music, ATVs, speeders, abandoned cars and dumped garbage (c'mon, people, the dump is free!) are all issues around here. Oh, and the $&$%##!!! helicopters taking tourists up to the volcano. Sometimes I can see three or four at one time, and they're noisy. Some of the larger subdivisions have discussion groups and websites with great info. On the groups, lots of people have already posted "tell me everything there is to know" type questions, so you'll get more info if you join the group, then search the archives. Fern Acres discussion is on y@hoo groups (this site won't let me post that) and website www.fernacres.org/ Hawaiian Acres hawaiianacres.org group link below. Here is a link that might be useful: Hawaiian Acres
...See More
possible food shortage
Q
Comments (37)
David and quietlife were at least reading the newspapers ;-); this is not an entirely fabricated concern. There *has* been a food shortage, boys and girls - Africa and Asia have borne witness to it this year. In Asia, India and China - remember the two countries with the two most massive populations? - went from being a net exporters of food to net importers. Both Asia and Africa - beyond the standard stock of drought-prone areas - were sorely short of food. Both continents saw a huge uptick in food prices, and, btw, so did we with bread and bananas grossly more expensive than even just last year and most vegetables substantially more. (Last week on either WSJ or NYTimes or WashingtonPost or The Economist there was a comparison made of the price of various food commodities betwen 1998, 2007 and 2008 - in general, small differences in price between 1998 and 2007 but LARGE differences between 2007 and 2008 for most of those items). I never did get so panicked about food that I would horde it (I'd rather reduce my intake and eat less of the fresh stuff than continue to eat the same quantity of canned/tinned/stored food). But I certainly noticed it in the RAPID and substantial increase in our green-grocery bills this year - and in my house, it is just DH and me. I can't believe you folks didn't notice it! You all have to tell me where you live so I can move there because out here in Boston parts, we certainly felt the pinch. Oh yes, in addition to the increasing cost of food, I did notice that there were more empty shelves at times also - in particular, I think, over the summer time. Causes for the shortage (yes, shortage) and the high costs in the US? Well, this was all being speculated on A LOT earlier this year. High oil costs and some climactic crises were thought to partly blame but those are 1-off things, right? True, but one concern the economists had was if the weather thing was going to be more habitual than aberrant if this is a by-product of climate change. For the veracity of that hypothesis, I imagine we'd have to see what next year and the years after bring - if more food shortages in India/China/Africa; well, that does put pressure on global food stocks. More pressingly, as quietlife said, the wide-scale subsidies on food crops and the huge market for ethanol - which is not subsidized - was considered much more worrisome as growing corn for ethanol is so much more lucrative for farmers over growing food. I'm a bit surprised that so many of you missed all this debate about the food crisis - whether it was the shortage overseas or the price hikes globally. WSJ and The Economist were all over this subject for several months earlier this year.
...See More
Getting enough food for the bins
Q
Comments (21)
I dont have a lot in my freezer so I have room to cut some up into small chunks into gal. freezer bags. Any excess can be stored outside as by then the temps should be about the same as a freezer. Might be a good idea for any brought inside from outside to freeze for a while to kill any unwanted critters and mites.
...See More
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
kimm has raised an excellent point here. Even when tons of food stuffs are delivered to many places suffering famine that food soes not reach those it is intended for.

I also wonder why the people are so unable to help themselves more. Oftentimes there is a warlord or dictator political situation...like in Somalia or Mugabe. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Too often there has not been enough of the Lord in these places. I certainly covet my liberty when it comes to my own choices for health and want no Washington warlords imposing things like Codex Alimentarius.
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Not to touch off an esoteric debate, but I will say that I think it is not an absence of piety that is the cause of malnourishment in various parts of the world. There is no shortage of catholics and evangelicals in brazil, for instance, and yet malnourishment - "fome" - certainly exists.

Shall we discuss the connection between the Inquisition and destitution and starvation? Or that without those heathen crops of Maize and Potato most christian europeans would have died of want during the 17th century?
Michael
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Bi11me: aint no thang. One thing unique to this area and others is the low annual precipitation. Soil moisture must be managed. If one cover crops (I am a big proponent of them) they take water from the soil that will not be there for a subsequent food crop. some may think that is not a problem but in economical terms it means that fewer food crops can be grown commercially. So, if one is farming to make a living one must be able to not grow as many crops. That would be economically unfeasible to many if not all farmers out here without somebody carrying the financial burden.

Having spoken over the years with many grain farmers around here, I can assure you that NOBODY is telling any of these guys what, where or when to grow anything. these guys make their decisions to plant in advance of planting season based on what they think the markets for their grain will be in the future (a real crap shoot), where they are in their rotations, what they think the costs of outputs will be, the possibilities of whether or not they may be able to rent a particular field or not existing soil moisture, etc., etc., etc.. They don't give a damn what their neighbor thinks, let alone what Mansanto et. al. think.

As far as the O.M. goes, of course there ways to create it in situ and, as you point out, it takes time. How is a farmer supposed to grow grain crops out here in this soil as it is and make a living? Nobody is willing or able to do it and take huge losses while the O.M. builds up or is maintained, we are where we are. When the millions of people in the US and abroad completely stop eating poultry, beef and pork, maybe there will be time for the soil to recover with cover cropping, etc.. Till then, I really don't understand how the soil can improved significantly without imported organic inputs and no cropping.

Lloyd: I saw a guy on TV the other day with a wood fired pickup truck, it was pretty neat! Of course, the guy was an engineer and built the thing himself.

shebear: oops, forgot about all the grass fed beef, one of my neighbors is a big producer of that and sheep. Them critters haven't had anything but grass all their lives.

Popeye: agreed, the petrochemical age will come to an end at some point, most likely because of economics(to darned expensive for people to afford petrochemical derived stuff). I'm just thinking down the road in time and wondering if it is feasible to get the world off the conventional, sorry, way of growing crops and onto others while not starving anybody to death in the mean time, the task is gargantuan. I AM NOT saying it is impossible, just that it is difficult to envision on such a scale.

bi11me: "Not everyone has the space to quadruple the size of their garden to incorporate a significant portion in cover crop rotation every year, but that is part of what it takes to eliminate the extractive nature of gardening by the methods that people currently use - always locked into the system of needing to get more OM, or buy more products, from off-farm sources." Well put, boy do I yearn for more garden space for the reasons you pointed out. The best I can do is to plant oats in August every year after the garden is done. Rotating would be a great addition. Guess I could just idlw my garden 3 or 4 out of every 5 years but the pantry would be awful bare most of the time.

jonhughes: thanks for the kind words, I didn't feel beat down cause I don't take this stuff personally the vast majority of the time and folks here don't make personal attacks hardly ever it seems to me. I do enjoy spirited debate though as long as the shouting is left out. By all means, keep paddling!

Wayne_5: Washington Warlords, I about peed my pants laughing at that one, thanks!

Oh, I know, one of these days I should look up one of the outfits that is currently producing organic wheat commercially to see how they are doing it.
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"Or that without those heathen crops of Maize and Potato most christian europeans would have died of want during the 17th century?."

Huh? Pat, I wasn't aware that there was much maize and potatoes in Europe in the 1600s.
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Yes, should have said 18th century, though the potato was already common by the mid- 1600's. By the mid-19th any problem with the potato supply meant massive malnourishment for the massively-ballooned populations, as per the Famine in ireland and later in russia.

Billme, you are surely right about having enough fallowing space in one's food production system. Which, writ large means ultimately less population.
organic_popeye
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Ya'll there is so much good stuff here on your posts. Again, when talking of OM, we must learn that HUMUS is the way out of our dilemma, not OM. Om is Soil Food Web food, not a source of humus, new research findings. Mycorrhizae produce humus, approximately 98% in grassland and mixed herbage. Forests and non mycorrhizal plants have much less humus in their soils. Organic matter and compost contribute 1 maybe 2% at the most. Not much. Roger on warlords and political BS. I have been to Mogadishu and Berbera, Somalia (1983 and 1984 while aircrew in the Navy) and what I observed there was obscene. Man's inhumanity to man. We can do better with our own problems here in the U.S.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Secrets Blog
Michael
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Ok Popeye, I started looking into the humus briefly and came up with this site below, whaddya think of it?

Here is a link that might be useful: The Theory Behind Humates
coconut_head
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I'll do a quick math problem.

According to Ohio State Univ. A raised bed can produce 1.25 Lbs of food per year per square foot. I think that's rediculously low. I would be interested in how much John Huges produces per square foot in his setup. But, let's use it for arguments sake.

An average human needs to consume roughly 800 Lbs of food per year. So dividing 800 into 1.25 gives us 640 square feet to produce roughly enough food to feed a human for 1 year. I'm not counting meat, I'm just saying if people ate a plant based diet (which they could survive off and be healthy).

So in one acre there is 43,560 square feet, if we divid that by 640 (the space required to produce enough to feed one human), we get 68. Lets assume we can't use the full square footage of the acre of land for growing, we do need paths and maybe a structure or two for housing and processing. Cut the acerage in half, and we can still feed 34 people annually on one acre of land.

In just NY state (I am using it because I live here) there are 35 Million acres of land. Again assuming we can use only half of that, we could feed 595 Million people annually. The entire US population is 313 Million. So just on a pure calorie basis, we could feed nearly double the entire population of the US on 50% of the land in NY and only utilizing 50% of that space as raised bed gardening.
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Based on my experience, which is pretty extensive regarding mixed crops grown in various labor-intensive arrangements, 1.25 lbs per square foot per year is very optimistic. Due to the fact, as pointed out earlier, that ground must be fallowed and allowed to grow biomass quite regularly. Even with non-organic mineral inputs for most soil/climate situations that figure will not hold, certainly not if those pounds of food are calorie-dense.
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The math is good, but some basic assumptions skew the results.

1) Not all of the land is arable.
2) Not all of the land is usable year-round.
3) Most Americans eat far more than that.
4) 1.25 seems like some poor gardening, even with a short growing season.

But the concept, and the reality, once we move a bit further out from the NY limits, is that it is possible to produce enough. The more people take responsibility for producing at least some portion of their own food, the more becomes available to those who can't.
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Not to mention that the idea of 1/4 the surface area of NY state in raised beds is an ecological disaster on a Chinese scale.

The concept of 'gardening' is useful on a small scale. For really large areas to be food-productive sustainably, we have to think of permaculture. Very low intensity, reliant on perennial and naturalized crops as forbs, bushes and trees rather than massive inputs of energy and fertilizer to annual plants only.
Lloyd
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I am quite often amused when the 'theoretically' issues come up.

Theoretically, if we stop consuming meat,
Theoretically, if we eat only the bare minimum calories,
Theoretically, if everyone grew most of their own food,
Theoretically, if everyone had time to devote to growing food,
Theoretically, if there was never a crop failure,
Theoretically, if everyone had space to grow their own food,
Theoretically, theoretically, theoretically....

One of the main reasons 'western' civilizations were able to achieve what we have achieved is because people were able to devote less time to hunting/gathering/growing and more time to industrialization. I wonder how many people would be willing to go back to subsistence living?

Lloyd
Michael
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi Lloyd: in addition to your list - if all that was harvested was eaten.
elisa_z5
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Isn't one acre considered the amount of good land needed to provide for 25 CSA members? That would be the veggie portion of their calories, anyway.

I'm still thinking about the "heathen" crops of maize and potatoes. Add tobacco to that list, and think of those friendly Natives with gratitude the next time you're at the County Fair eatin' corn dogs and french fries and smokin' a cigar. :)
jonhughes
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Since you asked ;-)

I have 1379 square feet of growing beds

I donated 9173 lbs of Vegetables to the Food Bank last year.
(I didn't weigh what my family and I ate)

Here is the timing and harvesting breakdown:

15 lbs of Onions��..� 4-18-2011
46 lbs of Broccoli��.4-18-2011
70 lbs of Swiss Chard �� 4-18-2011
6 lbs of Spinach��.�4-27-2011
10 lbs of Broccoli��.�4-27-2011
46 lbs of Onions��.�.4-27-2011 (193 lbs total )
6 lbs of Beets��..5-9-2011
27 lbs of Onions��.5-9-2011
45 lbs of Red Lettuce��.5-9-2011 (271 lbs total )
5 lbs of Broccoli ��.��5-20-2011
34 lbs of Onions��..5-24-2011
61 lbs of Lettuce��.5-24-2011
72 lbs of Swiss Chard��..5-24-2011 (443 lbs total )
18 lbs of Lettuce��.��5-26-2011
12 lbs of Spinach��.5-26-2011
18 lbs of Beets��..5-26-2011
7 lbs of Radishes��..5-26-2011 (498 lbs total )
15 lbs of Radishes��.6-1-2011
25 lbs of Onions��..6-1-2011
9 lbs of Broccoli��.6-1-2011
106 lbs of Lettuce��.6-1-2011 (653 lbs total )
6 lbs of Lettuce��6-2-2011
7 lbs of Onions��.6-2-2011
52 lbs of Onions��6-8-2011
61 lbs of Radishes��..6-8-2011
13 lbs of Swiss Chard��6-9-2011
8 lbs of Lettuce��.6-9-2011 (800 lbs total)
4 lbs of Lettuce��.6-14-2011
84 lbs of Garlic��6-14-2011
10 lbs of Onions��.6-14-2011
18 lbs of Potatoes��.6-16-2011
16 lbs of Broccoli��6-16-2011
5 lbs of Radishes��.6-16-2011
75 lbs of Onions��..6-20-2011
43 lbs of Garlic��6-20-2011
25 lbs of Potatoes��.6-20-2011 (1080 lbs total)
109 lbs of Onions��6-21-2011
79 lbs of Garlic��..6-21-2011
15 lbs of Lettuce��.6-21-2011 (1283 lbs total)
31 lbs of Garlic��..6-22-2011
75 lbs of Onions��6-22-2011 ( 1389 lbs total)
5 lbs of Lettuce��.6-27-2011
12 lbs of Broccoli��..6-27-2011
9 lbs of Squash��.6-27-2011
10 lbs of Sugar Snap Peas�.6-27-2011
47 lbs of Onions��6-27-2011
17 lbs of Carrots��..6-27-2011
22 lbs of Potatoes��6-27-2011
19 lbs of Garlic��6-27-2011 (1530 lbs total)
5 lbs of Broccoli��.�..7-5-2011
4 lbs of Cucumbers��....7-5-2011
3 lbs of Artichokes��...7-5-2011
14 lbs of Squash��.7-5-2011
40 lbs of Onions��.7-5-2011
12 lbs of Swiss Chard��..7-5-2011
10 lbs of Lettuce��.7-5-2011
2 lbs of Squash��.7-6-2011
4 lbs of Lettuce��.7-6-2011
4 lbs of Radishes��..7-6-2011
5 lbs of Carrots��..7-6-2011
28 lbs of Onions��7-6-2011 (1661 lbs Total)
6 lbs of Squash��..7-7-2011
33 lbs of Squash��7-11-2011
28 lbs of Onions��.7-11-2011
6 lbs of Cucumbers��..7-11-2011
2 lbs of Cucumbers��..7-13-2011
34 lbs of Squash��.7-13-2011
80 lbs of Squash��.7-18-2011
24 lbs of Onions��..7-18-2011
4 lbs of Turnips��.7-18-2011
4 lbs of Cucumbers��.7-18-2011 (1882 lbs total)
4 lbs of Onions��..�7-22-2011
40 lbs of Squash��..��7-22-2011
24 lbs of Cucumbers��.7-22-2011
4 lbs of Peppers��7-22-2011
3 lbs of Carrots.��..7-22-2011
43 lbs of Cucumbers��..7-25-2011
37 lbs of Squash��7-25-2011
5 lbs of Onions��7-25-2011
3 lbs of Peppers��.7-25-2011
28 lbs of Cucumbers��..7-28-2011
50 lbs of Squash��.7-28-2011
13 lbs of Onions��..7-28-2011 (2136 lbs Total)
Lettuce��.��282 lbs��.. Harvest Totals to date: 7-28-2011
Onions��.�.664 lbs
Broccoli��....103 lbs
Swiss Chard��..�.167 lbs
Spinach��..�.18 lbs
Beets ��...24 lbs
Radishes��92 lbs
Garlic��..256 lbs
Potatoes ��..65 lbs
Squash��305 lbs
Sugar Snap Peas��.10 lbs
Cucumbers��..111 lbs
Peppers��..7 lbs
Carrots��25 lbs
Artichokes��..3 lbs
Turnips��4 lbs ,��.TOTAL POUNDAGE ��..2136 lbs
104 lbs of Squash��.��..8-1-2011
50 lbs of Cucumbers��.�8-1-2011
31 lbs of Cucumbers��.�..8-4-2011
37 lbs of Peppers��.�..8-4-2011
63 lbs of Squash��..8-4-2011
5 lbs of Tomatoes��8-4-2011
76 lbs of Squash��8-8-2011
81 lbs of Cucumbers��..8-8-2011
8 lbs of Tomatoes��.8-8-2011
6 lbs of Peppers��.8-8-2011��2597 lbs total
1 lb of Squash��..8-9-2011
5 lbs of Cucumbers��..8-9-2011
10 lbs of Tomatoes��8-9-2011��2613 lbs total
1 lb of Onions��..8-15-2011
2 lbs of Potatoes��8-15-2011
2 lbs of Peppers��.8-15-2011
30 lbs of Bartlett Pears��.8-15-2011
63 lbs of Squash��....8-15-2011
70 lbs of Tomatoes��..8-15-2011
72 lbs of Cucumbers��8-15-2011��.2853 lbs total
46 lbs of Squash��..8-18-2011
59 lbs of Tomatoes��8-18-2011
23 lbs of Cantaloupe��8-18-2011
23 lbs of Cucumbers��.8-18-2011
51 lbs of Peppers��.8-18-2011
5 lbs of Butternut ��..8-18-2011
1 lb of Onions��.8-18-2011��3061 lbs total
60 lbs of Cucumbers��8-22-2011
53 lbs of Squash��..8-22-2011
203 lbs of Tomatoes��.8-22-2011
3 lbs of Turnips��.8-22-2011��3380 lbs total
Last year on this date:�(8-22-2010)��..This year�s Harvest��.
Squash��.306 lbs��..�.711 lbs
Tomatoes��113 lbs��355 lbs
Cucumbers��.176 lbs��..��.433 lbs

67 lbs of Cucumbers��8-25-2011
23 lbs of Squash��..��8-25-2011
198 lbs of Butternut (compost pile)��..8-29-2011
77 lbs of Peppers��8-29-2011
591 lbs of Tomatoes��8-29-2011
55 lbs of Squash��8-29-2011
95 lbs of Cucumbers��8-29-2011
63 lbs of Pears��.8-29-2011
8 lbs of Watermelon��8-29-2011
4 lbs of Cantaloupe��8-29-2011
4 lbs of Grapes��..��8-29-2011��..4565 lbs total
743 lbs Tomatoes��..9-5-2011
60 lbs of Squash��..9-5-2011
14 lbs of Cantaloupe��.9-5-2011
78 lbs of Cucumbers��..9-5-2011
14 lbs of Grapes��..9-5-2011
14 lbs of Bartlett Pears��9-5-2011
63 lbs of Butternut��.9-5-2011
3 lbs of Potatoes��9-5-2011��..5554 lbs total
2 lbs of Potatoes��9-8-2011
1 lb of Swiss Chard��9-8-2011
3 lbs of Butternut��9-8-2011
4 lbs of Cantaloupe��9-8-2011
11 lbs of Cucumbers��.9-8-2011
50 lbs of Tomatoes��.9-8-2011
14 lbs of Squash��9-8-2011��.5639 lbs total
468 lbs of Tomatoes��9-12-2011
125 lbs of Cucumbers��..9-12-2011
25 lbs of Squash��9-12-2011
6 lbs of Peppers��9-12-2011
30 lbs of Cantaloupe��.9-12-2011��..6293 lbs total
48 lbs of Butternut (Compost Pile)��9-14-2011
7 lbs of Potatoes��..9-14-2011
5 lbs of Squash��..9-14-2011
6 lbs of Honeydew��9-14-2011
135 lbs of Butternut��.9-14-2011
15 lbs of Cucumbers��..9-14-2011
10 lbs of Tomatoes��..9-14-2011
67 lbs of Peppers��..9-14-2011��6586 lbs total
Last year on this date:�(9-14-2010)��..This year�s Harvest��.
Squash��.690 lbs��..�.893 lbs
Tomatoes��367 lbs��2217 lbs
Cucumbers��.339 lbs��..��.824 lbs
88 lbs of Cucumbers��..9-19-2011
37 lbs of Squash��.9-19-2011
202 lbs of Tomatoes��..�.9-19-2011
18 lbs of Butternut��9-19-2011��6931 lbs total
61 lbs of Tomatoes��9-21-2011
6 lbs of Cucumbers��9-21-2011
58 lbs of Cantaloupe��.9-21-2011
30 lbs of Squash��9-21-2011
58 lbs of Peppers��..�..9-21-2011��..7144 lbs total
80 lbs of Tomatoes��..9-26-2011
57 lbs of Squash��.9-26-2011
30 lbs of Cucumbers��..9-26-2011
4 lbs of Cantaloupe��..9-26-2011��7315 lbs total
46 lbs of Cucumbers��9-28-2011
37 lbs of Squash��..9-28-2011
11 lbs of Cantaloupe��.9-28-2011
46 lbs of Tomatoes��.9-28-2011��.7455 lbs total
181 lbs of Tomatoes��..10-4-2011
44 lbs of Squash��10-4-2011
41 lbs of Cucumbers��.�..10-4-2011��7721 lbs total
169 lbs of Butternut��10-11-2011
119 lbs of Butternut (Compost pile)��10-11-2011
159 lbs of Tomatoes��..��10-11-2011
61 lbs of Squash��.�10-11-2011
8 lbs of Cantaloupe��.��..10-11-2011
22 lbs of Cucumbers��..10-11-2011��.8259 lbs total
133 lbs of Tomatoes��..10-18-2011
74 lbs of Peppers��..10-18-2011
10 lbs of Sweet Potatoes��.�...10-18-2011
31 lbs of Squash��..10-18-2011��8507 lbs total
32 lbs of Squash��..10-25-2011
168 lbs of Tomatoes��.10-25-2011
144 lbs of Butternut ��.10-25-2011..�.8851 lbs total
11 lbs of Sweet Potatoes��..11-2-2011
27 lbs of Butternut��11-2-2011
23 lbs of Cucumbers��..11-2-2011
77 pounds of Melons��..11-2-2011
37 lbs of Tomatoes��11-2-2011
147 lbs of Peppers��..11-2-2011��.9173 lbs Total

Harvest Totals for Season: All was donated to the FoodBank.
Lettuce��.��282 lbs
Onions��.�.666 lbs
Broccoli��....105 lbs
Swiss Chard��..�.168 lbs
Spinach��..�.18 lbs
Beets ��...24 lbs
Radishes��92 lbs
Garlic��..256 lbs
Potatoes ��..79 lbs
Sweet Potatoes��...21 lbs
Sugar Snap Peas��.10 lbs
Carrots��25 lbs
Artichokes��..3 lbs
Turnips��7 lbs
Cucumbers��..1080 lbs
Peppers��..532 lbs
Squash��1222 lbs
Tomatoes��3284 lbs (80 plants) and Hundreds of Pounds on Plants when Frost Hit ;-(
Butternuts��..929 lbs
Melons��247 lbs
Bartlett Pears��107 lbs
Grapes��.18 lbs
Total Harvest for the season �.9173 lbs
(Does not include what was consumed by family and friends, just what was donated to the FoodBank).
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Anyway you slice it that is a lot of produce. If you remove the water, I would roughly guess you removed 1200 pounds of dry matter. That means you need a lot of replacement material.

I wish Garden Web would let us use more of the simple HTML characters....they used to.
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
PS, Quite a bit of that material comes from the air. Still there might be what?...150 pounds of minerals?
jonhughes
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I don't know anything about that ,but I top off my beds with 9 yards of homemade compost, that is pretty heavy, even though it is finished and I have never put any fertilizers in. Thinking about trying some this year though ,at least experimenting ;-)

{{gwi:110286}}

{{gwi:23549}}

{{gwi:65358}}

{{gwi:30778}}
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
That's 6.65 lbs/sq. ft. which is more like what I would expect. It just looks like more with all that punctuation ;^)
Lloyd
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Like any good farmer I have to ask what were the inputs required to produce this. Include equipment, structures, man hours/salaries, fuel and all the other costs. Then we can calculate the cost per pound as well.

Lloyd
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
It's clear that there was a lot of initial expense in the infrastructure, which to my mind is good thinking. Well designed system, accessible beds, a continual building of soil. No doubt there is no small amount of labor, either, both in the initial construction and operation. Given the final destination though, obviously a labor of love.
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Here's another part of the solution.

Here is a link that might be useful: 3 acre farm planned
Lloyd
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"The projected cost of the 3-acre rooftop farm is $2.5 million."

Out of my league.

Lloyd
jonhughes
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi Lloyd,
The Food Bank Garden (just acquired last year)produced 50,000lbs and had hundreds of volunteers ,planting, harvesting etc.

My Garden: 9173 lbs...ME ;-)

I did all of the Planting and Harvesting all by my lonesome (even my wife won't come out and help ;-(

But... it isn't done for them anyway.

God said in Deuteronomy 15:11 For the poor will never cease to be in the land; therefore I command you, saying, You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.

I'm just doing my share ;-)

{{gwi:28490}}
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Massive inputs for that kind of production are required of course. Still, intensive high-input gardening serves a useful purpose, namely making hand labor very effective on the cultivation of the crop. Making large amounts of compost by taking advantage of large machines (haying equipment, bucket-loaders, etc) makes the system a lot more feasible than otherwise.
Lloyd
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The answer to the question, "is it possible to grow enough food", is no doubt yes. However without analyzing how to accomplish this goal, we don't know if it is realistically feasible.

It has been my experience that people attempting to start up a market garden mostly underestimate the amount of time/labour, costs and overall difficulties. IOW, it sounds good on paper. I have to admit my experience with my fruit orchard was similar.

Lloyd
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I like your shirt Jon. You surely have invested a lot of time, dollars, and hauling miles in that ministry. Not a drop will fall to the ground unnoticed and unblessed by our Heavenly Father.
jonhughes
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hopefully I fixed that stupid HTML character problem.

15 lbs of Onions------------------------------------------- 4-18-2011
46 lbs of Broccoli-------------------------------------------4-18-2011
70 lbs of Swiss Chard -------------------------------------4-18-2011
6 lbs of Spinach---------------------------------------------4-27-2011
10 lbs of Broccoli-------------------------------------------4-27-2011
46 lbs of Onions---------------------------------------------4-27-2011 (193 lbs total )
6 lbs of Beets-------------------------------------------------5-9-2011
27 lbs of Onions---------------------------------------------5-9-2011
45 lbs of Red Lettuce---------------------------------------5-9-2011 (271 lbs total )
5 lbs of Broccoli --------------------------------------------5-20-2011
34 lbs of Onions---------------------------------------------5-24-2011
61 lbs of Lettuce--------------------------------------------5-24-2011
72 lbs of Swiss Chard--------------------------------------5-24-2011 (443 lbs total )
18 lbs of Lettuce--------------------------------------------5-26-2011
12 lbs of Spinach--------------------------------------------5-26-2011
18 lbs of Beets-----------------------------------------------5-26-2011
7 lbs of Radishes--------------------------------------------5-26-2011 (498 lbs total )
15 lbs of Radishes-------------------------------------------6-1-2011
25 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------6-1-2011
9 lbs of Broccoli-----------------------------------------------6-1-2011
106 lbs of Lettuce--------------------------------------------6-1-2011 (653 lbs total )
6 lbs of Lettuce------------------------------------------------6-2-2011
7 lbs of Onions------------------------------------------------6-2-2011
52 lbs of Onions-----------------------------------------------6-8-2011
61 lbs of Radishes--------------------------------------------6-8-2011
13 lbs of Swiss Chard----------------------------------------6-9-2011
8 lbs of Lettuce------------------------------------------------6-9-2011 (800 lbs total)
4 lbs of Lettuce------------------------------------------------6-14-2011
84 lbs of Garlic------------------------------------------------6-14-2011
10 lbs of Onions-----------------------------------------------6-14-2011
18 lbs of Potatoes---------------------------------------------6-16-2011
16 lbs of Broccoli----------------------------------------------6-16-2011
5 lbs of Radishes----------------------------------------------6-16-2011
75 lbs of Onions-----------------------------------------------6-20-2011
43 lbs of Garlic------------------------------------------------6-20-2011
25 lbs of Potatoes--------------------------------------------6-20-2011 (1080 lbs total)
109 lbs of Onions---------------------------------------------6-21-2011
79 lbs of Garlic------------------------------------------------6-21-2011
15 lbs of Lettuce----------------------------------------------6-21-2011 (1283 lbs total)
31 lbs of Garlic------------------------------------------------6-22-2011
75 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------6-22-2011 ( 1389 lbs total)
5 lbs of Lettuce-----------------------------------------------6-27-2011
12 lbs of Broccoli---------------------------------------------6-27-2011
9 lbs of Squash------------------------------------------------6-27-2011
10 lbs of Sugar Snap Peas----------------------------------6-27-2011
47 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------6-27-2011
17 lbs of Carrots---------------------------------------------6-27-2011
22 lbs of Potatoes-------------------------------------------6-27-2011
19 lbs of Garlic-----------------------------------------------6-27-2011 (1530 lbs total)
5 lbs of Broccoli----------------------------------------------7-5-2011
4 lbs of Cucumbers------------------------------------------7-5-2011
3 lbs of Artichokes-------------------------------------------7-5-2011
14 lbs of Squash----------------------------------------------7-5-2011
40 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------7-5-2011
12 lbs of Swiss Chard---------------------------------------7-5-2011
10 lbs of Lettuce-----------------------------------7-5-2011
2 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------7-6-2011
4 lbs of Lettuce-----------------------------------------------7-6-2011
4 lbs of Radishes---------------------------------------------7-6-2011
5 lbs of Carrots-----------------------------------------------7-6-2011
28 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------7-6-2011 (1661 lbs Total)
6 lbs of Squash------------------------------------------------7-7-2011
33 lbs of Squash----------------------------------------------7-11-2011
28 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------7-11-2011
6 lbs of Cucumbers-------------------------------------------7-11-2011
2 lbs of Cucumbers-------------------------------------------7-13-2011
34 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------7-13-2011
80 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------7-18-2011
24 lbs of Onions-----------------------------------------------7-18-2011
4 lbs of Turnips------------------------------------------------7-18-2011
4 lbs of Cucumbers-------------------------------------------7-18-2011 (1882 lbs total)
4 lbs of Onions-----------------------------------------------------7-22-2011
40 lbs of Squash---------------------------------------------------7-22-2011
24 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------7-22-2011
4 lbs of Peppers--------------------------------------------------7-22-2011
3 lbs of Carrots----------------------------------------------------7-22-2011
43 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------7-25-2011
37 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------7-25-2011
5 lbs of Onions-----------------------------------------------------7-25-2011
3 lbs of Peppers---------------------------------------------------7-25-2011
28 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------7-28-2011
50 lbs of Squash---------------------------------------------------7-28-2011
13 lbs of Onions----------------------------------------------------7-28-2011 (2136 lbs Total)
Lettuce--------------------------------282 lbs------------------- Harvest Totals to date: 7-28-2011
Onions---------------------------------664 lbs
Broccoli--------------------------------103 lbs
Swiss Chard---------------------------167 lbs
Spinach---------------------------------18 lbs
Beets ------------------------------------24 lbs
Radishes--------------------------------92 lbs
Garlic-------------------------------------256 lbs
Potatoes --------------------------------65 lbs
Squash----------------------------------305 lbs
Sugar Snap Peas----------------------10 lbs
Cucumbers-----------------------------111 lbs
Peppers------------------------------------7 lbs
Carrots------------------------------------25 lbs
Artichokes--------------------------------3 lbs
Turnips------------------------------------4 lbs ---------------TOTAL POUNDAGE ------------------------2136 lbs
104 lbs of Squash------------------------------------------------------8-1-2011
50 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------8-1-2011
31 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------8-4-2011
37 lbs of Peppers------------------------------------------------------8-4-2011
63 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------8-4-2011
5 lbs of Tomatoes------------------------------------------------------8-4-2011
76 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------8-8-2011
81 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------8-8-2011
8 lbs of Tomatoes---------------------------------------------------8-8-2011
6 lbs of Peppers-----------------------------------------------------8-8-2011---------------------2597 lbs total
1 lb of Squash--------------------------------------------------------8-9-2011
5 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------8-9-2011
10 lbs of Tomatoes--------------------------------------------------8-9-2011--------------------2613 lbs total
1 lb of Onions--------------------------------------------------------8-15-2011
2 lbs of Potatoes----------------------------------------------------8-15-2011
2 lbs of Peppers-----------------------------------------------------8-15-2011
30 lbs of Bartlett Pears--------------------------------------------8-15-2011
63 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------------8-15-2011
70 lbs of Tomatoes--------------------------------------------------8-15-2011
72 lbs of Cucumbers------------------------------------------------8-15-2011-----------------------2853 lbs total
46 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------------8-18-2011
59 lbs of Tomatoes-------------------------------------------------8-18-2011
23 lbs of Cantaloupe------------------------------------------------8-18-2011
23 lbs of Cucumbers------------------------------------------------8-18-2011
51 lbs of Peppers----------------------------------------------------8-18-2011
5 lbs of Butternut ---------------------------------------------------8-18-2011
1 lb of Onions---------------------------------------------------------8-18-2011--------------------------3061 lbs total
60 lbs of Cucumbers-------------------------------------------------8-22-2011
53 lbs of Squash------------------------------------------------------8-22-2011
203 lbs of Tomatoes-------------------------------------------------8-22-2011
3 lbs of Turnips-------------------------------------------------------8-22-2011---------------------3380 lbs total
Last year on this date:----(8-22-2010)---------------------------This years Harvest
Squash--------------------------306 lbs----------------------------------711 lbs
Tomatoes----------------------113 lbs---------------------------------355 lbs
Cucumbers---------------------176 lbs---------------------------------433 lbs

67 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------------8-25-2011
23 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------------8-25-2011
198 lbs of Butternut (from compost pile)------------------------------8-29-2011
77 lbs of Peppers-------------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
591 lbs of Tomatoes---------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
55 lbs of Squash---------------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
95 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
63 lbs of Pears-----------------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
8 lbs of Watermelon---------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
4 lbs of Cantaloupe------------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011
4 lbs of Grapes------------------------------------------------------------------8-29-2011----------------4565 lbs total
743 lbs Tomatoes---------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
60 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
14 lbs of Cantaloupe------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
78 lbs of Cucumbers------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
14 lbs of Grapes------------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
14 lbs of Bartlett Pears---------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
63 lbs of Butternut---------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011
3 lbs of Potatoes------------------------------------------------------------------9-5-2011--------------------5554 lbs total
2 lbs of Potatoes------------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011
1 lb of Swiss Chard---------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011
3 lbs of Butternut----------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011
4 lbs of Cantaloupe--------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011
11 lbs of Cucumbers------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011
50 lbs of Tomatoes--------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011
14 lbs of Squash-----------------------------------------------------------------9-8-2011-----------------5639 lbs total
468 lbs of Tomatoes------------------------------------------------------------9-12-2011
125 lbs of Cucumbers-----------------------------------------------------------9-12-2011
25 lbs of Squash------------------------------------------------------------------9-12-2011
6 lbs of Peppers-------------------------------------------------------------------9-12-2011
30 lbs of Cantaloupe-------------------------------------------------------------9-12-2011-----------------6293 lbs total
48 lbs of Butternut (from Compost Pile)------------------------------------9-14-2011
7 lbs of Potatoes------------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011
5 lbs of Squash---------------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011
6 lbs of Honeydew-----------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011
135 lbs of Butternut--------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011
15 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011
10 lbs of Tomatoes----------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011
67 lbs of Peppers-------------------------------------------------------------------9-14-2011----------------6586 lbs total
Last year on this date:-------(9-14-2010)------------------------------This years Harvest
Squash------------------------------690 lbs----------------------------------------893 lbs
Tomatoes--------------------------367 lbs----------------------------------------2217 lbs
Cucumbers------------------------339 lbs----------------------------------------824 lbs
88 lbs of Cucumbers--------------------------------------------------------------9-19-2011
37 lbs of Squash-------------------------------------------------------------------9-19-2011
202 lbs of Tomatoes--------------------------------------------------------------9-19-2011
18 lbs of Butternut----------------------------------------------------------------9-19-2011----------------6931 lbs total
61 lbs of Tomatoes----------------------------------------------------------------9-21-2011
6 lbs of Cucumbers----------------------------------------------------------------9-21-2011
58 lbs of Cantaloupe--------------------------------------------------------------9-21-2011
30 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------------------9-21-2011
58 lbs of Peppers------------------------------------------------------------------9-21-2011-------------------7144 lbs total
80 lbs of Tomatoes----------------------------------------------------------------9-26-2011
57 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------------------9-26-2011
30 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------------------------9-26-2011
4 lbs of Cantaloupe----------------------------------------------------------------9-26-2011--------------------7315 lbs total
46 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------------------------9-28-2011
37 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------------------9-28-2011
11 lbs of Cantaloupe--------------------------------------------------------------9-28-2011
46 lbs of Tomatoes----------------------------------------------------------------9-28-2011-----------------7455 lbs total
181 lbs of Tomatoes---------------------------------------------------------------10-4-2011
44 lbs of Squash---------------------------------------------------------------------10-4-2011
41 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------------------------10-4-2011-----------------7721 lbs total
169 lbs of Butternut---------------------------------------------------------------10-11-2011
119 lbs of Butternut (from Compost pile)------------------------------------10-11-2011
159 lbs of Tomatoes---------------------------------------------------------------10-11-2011
61 lbs of Squash--------------------------------------------------------------------10-11-2011
8 lbs of Cantaloupe----------------------------------------------------------------10-11-2011
22 lbs of Cucumbers---------------------------------------------------------------10-11-2011---------------------8259 lbs total
133 lbs of Tomatoes----------------------------------------------------------------10-18-2011
74 lbs of Peppers-------------------------------------------------------------------10-18-2011
10 lbs of Sweet Potatoes---------------------------------------------------------10-18-2011
31 lbs of Squash----------------------------------------------------------------------10-18-2011--------------------8507 lbs total
32 lbs of Squash---------------------------------------------------------------------10-25-2011
168 lbs of Tomatoes----------------------------------------------------------------10-25-2011
144 lbs of Butternut ----------------------------------------------------------------10-25-2011--------------------8851 lbs total
11 lbs of Sweet Potatoes------------------------------------------------------------11-2-2011
27 lbs of Butternut--------------------------------------------------------------------11-2-2011
23 lbs of Cucumbers------------------------------------------------------------------11-2-2011
77 pounds of Melons-----------------------------------------------------------------11-2-2011
37 lbs of Tomatoes--------------------------------------------------------------------11-2-2011
147 lbs of Peppers--------------------------------------------------------------------11-2-2011---------------------9173 lbs Total

Harvest Totals for Season: All was donated to the FoodBank.
Lettuce--------------------------------------------------------------------------282 lbs
Onions---------------------------------------------------------------------------666 lbs
Broccoli-------------------------------------------------------------------------105 lbs
Swiss Chard--------------------------------------------------------------------168 lbs
Spinach---------------------------------------------------------------------------18 lbs
Beets -----------------------------------------------------------------------------24 lbs
Radishes--------------------------------------------------------------------------92 lbs
Garlic-----------------------------------------------------------------------------256 lbs
Potatoes -------------------------------------------------------------------------79 lbs
Sweet Potatoes-----------------------------------------------------------------21 lbs
Sugar Snap Peas-----------------------------------------------------------------10 lbs
Carrots-----------------------------------------------------------------------------25 lbs
Artichokes-------------------------------------------------------------------------3 lbs
Turnips-----------------------------------------------------------------------------7 lbs
Cucumbers----------------------------------------------------------------------1080 lbs
Peppers----------------------------------------------------------------------------532 lbs
Squash----------------------------------------------------------------------------1222 lbs
Tomatoes-----------------------------3284 lbs (80 plants) and Hundreds of Pounds on Plants when Frost Hit ;-(
Butternuts----------------------------929 lbs
Melons---------------------------------247 lbs
Bartlett Pears-------------------------107 lbs
Grapes----------------------------------18 lbs
Total Harvest for the season -----------------------------------------9173 lbs
(Does not include what was consumed by family and friends, just what was donated to the FoodBank).
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Looks like Mr. Hughes better watch his back...

Here is a link that might be useful: the competition
organic_popeye
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Michael357, I am not a big fan of humates (salts of humic acids) because some are more effective than others and I have had mixed success in years past. More importantly, many of their claims are not backed up by research, in short, they can't prove how effective their product really is or what it contains. However, your reference had a lot of good info in it. Here again I would visit soilsecrets.com and their blog, soilsecretsblog.com for some great articles on humus.

This thread has some great posts and most of the problems have been well addressed. A lot of agribusiness production is exported to other countries and we don't benefit. I have never felt that it is America's job to feed the world. I would rather see us teaching other countries how to feed themselves but unfortunately they are only being taught heavy chemical input agriculture which they can neither afford or do sustainably. Hopefully this will change.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Secrets Blog
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Jon has an unusually fabulous soil/climate combo, I have always suspected. Either that or he is a genius.
jonhughes
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Well, If those are the only two options, I'm going with soil/climate ;-)
coconut_head
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks for the info John.

You're always an inspiration, both on a personal level and a gardening level.
Michael
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Popeye: I read through the "Soil Secrets" link and found it to have some interesting information in it, unfortunately it seems to be focused on selling a product rather heavily. Of note... the testimonials are useless in and of themselves, where is the research they talk about on more than one occasion. I'd love to see some actual research results from the field.
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I would say that it is fairly certain that the forest environment is highly dependent on fungal growth to break down the leaves, twigs, and sparse annual vegetation. Micorrhizal associations tend to abound.

When it comes to annual garden crops, bacteria play probably the dominant part. I read a comment on one micorrhizal site that noted, "Where there is moist soil and good soil fertility, the micorrhizal need is not so important."...the plants can fend for themselves. If this is so, and I don't claim to know that extent, just where is the micorrhizal association best manifested?

In a few short words, Is this a subject to get worked up about?
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
In the book "ecofarming", C. Walters talks about mycos at some length. For instance, he says one reason some weeds are so prolific in gardens and farms is that they are adapted to thrive without the mycos, which are typically absent in frequently tilled and under-nourished soils, whereas most cultivated crops need them.
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
pnbrown, If many of the cultivated crops "need them", why is this so? Would it be that the root system is weak or lacking?
coconut_head
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I am pretty interested in the soil secrets info as well. I did some searching on youtube and the web at large and "absorbed" some info on Humus or Humic acids, seems interesting and seems to fit pertty nicely within the no till camps ideology. I will be researching this thouroughly, and I enjoy capatalism, so have no problems with someone selling something, but that site does read pretty mich like a late night TV ad.
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Speaking of no-till.....the field around me is no-till. Years ago we tilled a lot. With a row crop we traversed the fields perhaps 8 times in a season. These traverses were with relatively narrow width equipment too. Now there are 3 or 4 passes with wide equipment....20 to 90 feet wide.

If you don't cultivate [bad for mycorrhizae?] for weeds in row crops, you gotta spray.....gottcha either way?
Lloyd
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
You could always weed by hand Wayne. ;-)

Lloyd
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
LLoyd says, "You could always weed by hand Wayne. ;-)

Yeah, why didn't I think of that. We only had about 150 acres then in row crops.
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
My parents' philosophy was "if you can't have slaves, have kids."
Lloyd
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"We only had about 150 acres then in row crops."

I don't see the problem. 1/4 acre per day, per person, you'd only need 85 people to get it weeded in a week. Pay these people ten bucks an hour for an eight hour day and you're only looking at sixty eight hundred bucks. (Hopefully you won't have to do this too often during a season though, it could get expensive.)

;-)

Lloyd
bi11me
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
There are two crops that would make this worthwhile. One doesn't grow in Indiana. Both are illegal.
wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Helicopters are frequent here...even in winter.
kqcrna
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Have you folks ever listened to the Survival Podcast? It can be pretty interesting, even to city folks like me. This episode is an interview with someone who, with his wife and 5 kids, runs a farm in Texas which is pretty much sustainable. They grow their own vegetables, raise some farm animals, obtain their milk from their own cows, make their own butter, cheese, and yogurt- pretty interesting stuff. My favorite line "If we go to the grocery store, it's pretty much because we want potato chips"

Karen

Here is a link that might be useful: Survival podcast
TheMasterGardener1
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Is it possible to grow enough food?

Well, stated by jonhughes:

"I have 1379 square feet of growing beds

I donated 9173 lbs of Vegetables to the Food Bank last year.
(I didn't weigh what my family and I ate)"

He gives away 9,000+ lbs of produce and he grows all of it him self!!!!

Then Yes is the answer.
pnbrown
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Michael, regarding your OP, specifically, could the OM percentage of much of the world's arable lands feasibly be raised.

One way that it might be feasible is to apply the lacking minerals to such lands in the form of powdered rocks. Albrecht's teaching is that if the macros are balanced properly crops produce more proteinacious matter which should over time raise humus levels of soil, and rock powders can also raise the deficient traces at the same time. For fields that have existing irrigations systems applying micronized rock powered through the water could be very effective. Non irrigated situations would need specialized spreaders that can handle 200 mesh powder.

This way we could use the already in-place photosynthetic engines, whatever they are (forage grasses, grains, orchards, etc) to raise the OM and thus the CEC and productivity of soils.

Is it possible to grow enough food?

Comments (66)

Related Discussions

MichaelOriginal Author

MichaelOriginal Author

MichaelOriginal Author

MichaelOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Michael
Original Author

Michael
Original Author

Michael
Original Author

Michael
Original Author