kmama, I'll look for photos, but Grandmother's Hat is one that YOU decide.
You can let it grow upright to maybe 8 ft., narrower at the base, wider toward the top. You can prune it, and make a rounded shrubby plant, perhaps 5 ft. tall x 6 ft. It is upright in habit, and does not require espaliering to bloom, but more bloom will occur at the top than at the bottom. In maturity, you may see a couple of ft. of "naked knees" at the base.

Excellenz von Schubert is a vigorous grower with thick foliage (and some prickles!) which can be trained over an arch.
We trained it, rather, to a broad tripod years ago, and to this day it remains an quite large ball of a plant, which blooms all over. But it is not a plant for a constricted space.

Hope this helps. (Note that EvS, typical for one of them Multiflora-purples, is sensitive to alkalinity, but your environment should be acidic enough to make it happy.)

Jeri
In Alkaline Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal

Exzellenz von Schubert is a polyantha bush of unremarkable habit. The ones I've seen have been no more than maybe 4' tall.

Grandmother's Hat, on the other hand, inclines towards being a 7' tree. If you've ever seen a really old and established alba, or maybe Mme. Hardy, you know the kind. Not all that different from a small fruit tree. Given long enough, GH will get canes that are 2"-3" thick, completing the look.

The Excellenz von Schubert that I have is a Hybrid Musk rather than a Polyantha.

Looking over at HMF I find that there is quite a bit of discussion about this rose and that there may well be two different roses in circulation with this name. One is pink with little or no scent; the other is mauve and quite fragrant.

Although mine is just a huge band right now, and waiting to go into the ground later this weekend, I am quite sure that I am planting the mauve, fragrant Hybrid Musk.

Vintage sells the mauve, fragrant HM EVS. The pink one is actually Gartendirecktor Otto. EVS will tolerate a far bit of shade, if that helps.

Thanks, everyone for your help. I think I have them planned OK. The EVS is the one I think I'll put in the slightly less sunny spot so that I can let it sprawl a little.

Land -- The ARS calls EvS a Polyantha, but if it is one, it should properly be called a Cl. Poly -- and it could equally be considered an HM (like its close relative, 'Gartendirektor Otto Linne').

These roses were LAMBERTIANAS -- created by Lambert. Any other classification is the work of those who came along after Lambert died. They certainly are related to HM's, and it makes more sense to me to call 'em that. But I ain't ARS.

In any case, if it is EvS, and it is poiple and fragrant, it IS GOING TO GET BIG IN CALIFORNIA. I would strongly recommend that you not plant it in a location where space is tight.

Jeri in Coastal Ventura Co.
(Who has grown EvS for a decade or more)

Hi everyone,
I just had another thought about where I might put EVS, but wanted to find out if EvS MUST climb or can it be more shrub-like if it has horizontal space to spread/fan out.

I have a big front window that is about 5' above ground, and about 6' wide. Does EVS have to be a climber? If left to its own devices, does it sort of spray up and out, tumble and fall, I don't know the lingo yet. But I guess I'm wondering if 5' tall and 6' wide (even with some pruning) would be sufficient for EVS (in NorCal) if not trained to a trellis but allowed to become a shrub.

If it can be grown this way, does it still need some sort of grid/trellis/cattle panel something or other behind it (up against the house) to train the plant initially?

With the Celebration just a few days away, I'm still trying to decide where to place the plants I already *own* so that I can justify buying *more*. LOL

Thanks!

You might be able to "girdle" or "corral" EvS -- but you have here a rose which either wants a lot of space, or needs to be tied UP.

Jeri

Thanks, Jeri. I'll try to find you at the Celebration, too. But I want you to know how much I appreciate your help before the event. I'm playing a bit of "landscape architect" this spring... and trying to place plants in an empty canvas (completely empty beds) without having seen most of these roses in person.

My GH wants to grow as a rounded vase. Here it likes to be about seven feet high and I have it placed in full sun. I do not have any problem with it that way. While its form is upright rather than sprawling, it does take a fair amount of horizontal real estate. You can underplant it with lilies, sages, dianthus, irises, what every you like. However, I don't think it can fit comfortably into a narrow place.

Funny that you mention Rose de Rescht. I have it planted right next to GH.

Rosefolly

Rosefolly's right. Any way you cut it, once mature, these roses take up considerable horizontal space.

I fought my way through the jungle this morning, all the way to the bottom of the hill. I felt like Jack at the foot of a field of beanstalks! Those roses down there are WAY bigger than I am!

Jeri