Flagstone Patio -- Disaster or will it be OK?

15 years ago

Hi,

We just had a flagstone (Tennessee fieldstone patio "finished" yesterday... it was a joint effort between our landscaper, his help & my husband..so semi diy. They dug out the sod, laid it on that gray sand mix stuff (sorry not sure what it is), placed the stones, then the guys swept Quikrete Sand topping mix over the whole surface, into the gaps. Guess what?? Now they are not the nice variety of colors anymore, they are all GREY/BROWN. My husband did not see the end result on the day until too late but I was assured we should leave it and let it set between the stones and that it would just wash off the stone surface easily. I was skeptical and it turns out, is not really the case. I think after researching a bit, that they should have actually used Power-Loc jointing sand, as they seemed to be using it in the same way as that describes. Needless to say it has turned out to be the blind leading the blind here & trying to do it on the cheap...! (except for the stones...). Our Landscaper (who has not yet been paid!)is bringing back "concrete cleaner" Monday -- does anyone have suggestions? Can you speak from experience & did yours recover?

It did seem to scrub off on spot test with water & stiff brush but not sure it will be the same as it was. This is really annoying when we purposely went with stone to get a nice naturally-varied look! Help?

Thank you!

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PRO

Synergy AVE

8 years ago

Sand topping mix is actually used in this exact application all the time. The only difference being that the tops of the stones are ALWAYS sealed FIRST. Typically the sides are not so the Quikcrete will stick to the stone.

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Comments (6)

laurafitz
Original Author
15 years ago
I should also add, more to the point --- Is time of the essence?? The Quikrete stuff has been on since Friday afternoon - Will Monday be soon enough to get the stuff off & save the stones???
Thanks again!
madtripper
15 years ago
I am sure it is too late for advice, but it may help others. We'd also like to hear how things turned out.

I beleive the quickrite sand is a mortor mix. It should be mixed with water and put into the cracks. Any excess is washed off right away.

I'll bet it is hard to get off now that it is dry.

If it is a problem, you might consider turning the stones over and redoing the patio?
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I'm a lurker here who is a homeowner and not a pro, and has little design knowledge/ability (which is why i lurk!), but I have used EnviroStone! We just finished laying a 500 sq ft flagstone patio ourselves with it and are very pleased. EnviroStone is designed for wider joints (the same company has different products for narrow joints). For your application, I think you would need to be able to dig ALL of the mud out of each joint. There is a PDF you can download online with the EnviroStone specs/instructions and it says that you should not have any other filler material in the bottom of each joint, otherwise that can wash out from under the EnviroStone and make the joint unstable. I don't know whether they just say that to make you buy enough product to fill all of the joint depth, but it made sense to us, so we followed that. We had a base of 3" compacted crush-and-run (like crushed stone, i think), topped with 1" of granite sand (we got a landscape company to do that part). Then we levelled the flagstones in the granite sand, and then we filled in the joints with EnviroStone and watered down. So far (only 2 months), it looks great and the stones feel solid. It was also easy enough to install to be a DIY job (easy for me to say, as my brother and husband did it all!). I think having a solid/level base is important -- especially in the North where you get more frost movement (we are in Atlanta). I am adding a pic of our patio to show how wide our joints are. We did this as a DIY project, so I'm aware that it doesn't look like a pro job! Hope this helps -- if you decide your base is good enough and you can dig out all that mud, i think EnviroStone would be a good option.
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I just built a quartzite patio in Reno, NV. I used the new product, polymeric sand and it worked great! I got the sand in 60 lb bags for $20 a bag from Home Depot. My patio is 9X27.5 and I used 5 bags. It looks like regular sand and sweeps into the joints. You then mist it 3-4 times waiting about 10 minutes between each misting. The water activates a weak polymer glue and locks the sand granules in place. We don't have much problems with frost heaves here, but if a stone moves you can pull up the sand in chunks and step on it or use a shovel to get it back to a granular stage, sweep it back in place and re-mist. Although the polymeric sand sets up pretty hard I don't think it would stand up to a leg from a patio chair, etc., so we plan on getting sled style chairs for the patio. It does do well with walking on it and the sand stays put! So far we are very happy with it. I'll let you know how it goes thru the winter. We get very little rain here but we do get snow.
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Michelle Roth , I'm going to retract my comment that the materials may not look good together. I'm posting pictures of a house that was for sale nearby that used pavers and river rock. (so not exactly flagstone but a similar). When I saw this listed on the MLS, I was wowed and thought this looked great. I wasn't thinking "Oh the materials are different." lol. (fwiw, there are pics that show off the yard better. I'm uploading the ones with the biggest swath of materials, so you can see). I think your contractors are probably right, that's the uneven flagstones could cause problems set in sand. If you're going dry-set, pavers can fit much closer together, so fewer weeds! Plus dry-set is permeable, so better for the environment. (rain can return to the water table). I think it's also easier to lay vs. concrete. I'm going to be re-doing my backyard patio later this year. My landscape architect said that cost-wise, the cheapest is stamped cement, then pavers, then stone. In addition to the cost of the stone, I think the labor is a lot more, trying to get everything to line up. Thanks for starting this thread. It's helping me decide. I think I'll do pavers set in sand! ;)
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tunilla
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HI all.Just popped over from the conifer-forum and bumped into this story.You could try vinegar or another acid (hydrochloric acid comes to mind) to clean off the excess cement... either with a cloth (stone by stone)or with a small hand-sprayer.After doing this you should wash the whole area copiously with clean water to get rid of any remaining acid.
PS: Hydrochloric acid is pokey stuff,so,be careful! T.
laurafitz
Original Author
15 years ago
Hi again
Belated Thanks for your replies. Our gardener tried very powerful pressure washing, alot of it did come off but there are bits left including some "very attactive" lines of it where the stream missed. A few softer stones also have lines etched in them. It also blasted out most of the Quikrete from between the stones, and generally made a huge mess of the whole surrounding area. In the meantime DH returned to Lowe's, and found that the stuff we should have used, JointLoc polymer sand was right beside the Sand topping mix & the assistant had recommended the wrong thing! He told them they could just sweep it over the top & it would wash off!! We added Joint loc sand on top of the reamaining base mixture and it is all settling in. We'll work on it more a bit later when weather improves. I considered whether we could turn stones over but they are all irregular shaped & with some it may work better than others. We didn't want to use strong acids if could avoid it, we may try with wire brushes and vinegar to get the remainder off. It mostly looks OK if you don't look too closely at it!! Anyway it was a mess & I hope others see this post, DO NOT use Sand Topping Mix with natural stone!, and just take your time & do some research before you dump something over your expensive stones!! Thank you all again!
paves
15 years ago
I must say first you should have gone with Pavers. But, go to your local rent-all place and rent a power washer and at a 45 degree angle start going to town until it's gone! Peace love and paving

Here is a link that might be useful: Denver paver driveway

Flagstone Patio -- Disaster or will it be OK?

Synergy AVE

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laurafitz
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madtripper

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tunilla

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Flagstone Patio -- Disaster or will it be OK?

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madtripper

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laurafitzOriginal Author

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