My thoughts are exactly along catkim's lines. But I would just leave a very small opening (because it's only hard to pry out the first brick, and then you can always enlarge it). For a vine, you actually need just a very small opening into the ground. If you leave just two bricks out, let's say, you will be able to enlarge it if you like and the majority of your patio will be well-laid and leveled, plus the space for those two bricks will be pretty exact. Leave a bigger space than that, and it will be tricky to fill it in well. The thing about leaving a full bed the length of the stairs is everything from mess to weeding/making more mess (and dirt on patio = weed seeds sprouting on patio in the cracks), but also the risk of dropping a chair leg off the edge of the stone into the dirt. This patio is going to feel SMALL for the furniture you have in mind. I don't think you should shrink its effective size. Also keep in mind that your doorway is recessed and quite dark. A vine will make it feel and look more closed in, in case that matters to you. And these big perennial vines can get pretty overwhelming. I personally love clematis and would probably put one there, but I'm not sure I would put it in the ground. You could leave it in a pot, and always cut it back to the ground (or bottom two buds if a B-type) every year. And once it gets too vigorous (as many do after three or four years), you might like to put in a new one. This is very tricky to do in the ground adjacent to a patio without damaging the patio. Maybe some annual vines would be more fun. Again, way easier in a container. Plus, the container gives you another decor item to have some fun with. On the other hand, it takes up some space. So I would lay and tamp the whole patio but for two bricks. Undoing it later from there if you want a bigger bed is way easier than filling it in. You can minimize the crush layer in that area if you really feel you will want to open it up. By the way, is there a basement here? If so, you want your subgrade to tilt away from the house. Karin L

If anyone is still reading this thread, I'll give you an update. I cannot do any decking as I do not have enough clearance on the patio door. It is only 7". They need 11 -1/2". So that eliminated that possibility. I called a few people - and of course, haven't received callbacks yet. I did call one person that I had heard of through a friend. He has quite a large company, does landscaping, patios, etc. The way he works is that he comes out, looks the property over, then does a design. We paid $300 to have the design done, which I do not think is unreasonable. He, of course, hopes that we will work with him because he is certainly not making any money just doing designs! We talked about concrete and pavers. He suggested pavers for a number of reasons, the main one besides asthetics being that if they move or crack, they can be fixed. I need to read my paperwork, but I believe he said he guarantees them for two years and if during that time anything moves around, he will fix it. He also said that most, if any at all, movement will occur in the first two years. He suggested that the tree I want to get rid of might infringe on anything we do - the roots. With that, DH said to take it out. Yeah!!! Victory!! As I said, he asks for so little that I was not going to argue that point. So, I am awaiting his design which he said would be about 2 -3 weeks. JAN IN WISCONSIN -- if you see this ---- he showed me a book with pavers. He asked if I liked the sqaured off corners or the more rounded ones. I said the rounded ones. I picked out the Brussels pavers. I haven't seen them yet, but from the catalog, that would be my first choice. Then I reread this thread and see that is what you are using!!!!! What color did you choose??? I am excited. I know his plan is going to come in at way more than I am willing to pay. But he is also willing to work in stages or have us do part. He even said things like - the step coming from the sliding door. Right now, there are two steps. I really only need one, so that is a cost savings. I really think he knows what he is talking about, so we'll see what happens. Again, thanks to all for your help. I am so very excited!! As I thought about it, we haven't even used the back and the patio in the last few years. I didn't even like going out there. Now I look forward to being out there, drinking tea (Salada or Long Island depending on the time of day) and enjoying summer - at least part of it. I am sure this will all take awhile to get done.

You can do it either way..... In percentages, I would say most put it directly in sand. But the idea of pavers is to have some small amount of sinking and terrain changes---adds character. You can always remove the pavers and go back and add more sand and put them back level. Concrete always provides a more "stable foundation" since its heavy and doesn't move. So if you pour a slab and then put the pavers down, they won't sink at all and you will never have to remove them and replace them. But, yes, thats expensive and sort of defeats the purpose or reason most would say they want the pavers in the first place. The key to making the sand work the best is to make sure the person does it right. Make sure they "box" in the job site...this keeps water from getting in and moving the base. You will usually see the sides sink first or one side wall off if not. Make sure you have a good base beforehand or use base rock first. Make sure the sand is "compacted", watered down and then "compacted" again...this is very important. Use good sand. Some would throw the sand on and be done on to the pavers. The more you compact it, the less likely it is to settle later. Make sure the drainage around the deck is correct and you don't have a river flowing over it each time it rains.

I cannot recall seeing a concrete driveway in our neighborhood. I mostly see asphalt (blacktop) driveways and a handful of paver drive ways. I am starting to see more and more paver driveways though. Some other houses in the neighborhood had a paver driveway recently installed in the last few months. It looks really decorative but that's while it new. I've seen some other houses with paver driveways that are a few years old and some have started bulging, sinking, become overlayed with weeds and also seen them with intricate line of moss as well. It seems either an asphalt or paver driveway would need some kind of maintenance, but I'm going to make the assumption that asphalt is easier to maintain.