There was just an article in the Washington Post this morning on the environmental drawbacks of concrete "hardscape" in the garden, primarily the fact that it causes run-off and drainage problems because it is impermeable. Pavers do allow for some permeability. There is a permeable type of concrete, but it is hard to work with (and therefore probably more expensive).

Why not have the flagstone pavers seated properly? My terraces and all my garden paths are flagstone, and I have had no problem with shifting. I can also grow things (like creeping thyme) between the pavers, to beautiful effect. I think that flagstone can be quite aesthetically pleasing in the garden.

We considered stamped concrete, but ultimately decided to install a deck (our septic system lines are in that area). There are many nice designs available for stamped concrete.

As far as I know, pavers will move around over time, especially in an area with harsh winter weather. They will shift and heave somewhat, unless you set them in concrete. I think pavers would look nicer than concrete, depending on the shape and pattern.

Concrete or pavers will be less maintenance than a deck, because you won't have to keep staining it. But you may get moss growing on whatever surface you put in. Concrete or pavers will hold up better to moss than wood will.

Is this an area that you use a lot? I'm wondering if you could replace the grass with some other groundcover that would do better than grass, and forget about a hard surface all together. Even moss can be a lovely, carefree groundcover if done properly.

Kkay, that is one thing I am considering - having the flagstones put in properly. I do like the casual, woodsy look they give.
I just want a small patio area with some kind of walk into one of the beds on the side where I can put the barbeque grill. Uxioral, I am thinking that the moss might not be so bad.
I am a salesperson (own business) and I hate to have my time wasted, so am very respectful of the time of others.
We are pretty much DIY, but when I need someone to come in, I usually get a referral, have someone in and that's it. Like the guy I just hired to trim a lot of trees - price sounded reasonable - so let's do it.
But in this case, I really think I need to have several people out here to get their opinions.
A former neighbor was planning on re-landscaping. They had a lot of people out, got all of their ideas, then did it themselves. They had no intention of hiring anyone!! I think I need several opinions - and yes, we can have harsh winters here. The many inches of wet, heavy snow this year gave snowmold unlike I have seen before. Thanks a lot for the thoughts.

At Dh's office they redid the entry with stamped concrete. To me, it looks plasticky and I really did not care for it. I prefer the appearance of bricks or flagstone. If I were to do concrete, I would have it acid washed instead of the stamping, but that is of course just my personal preference.

I'd do a beautiful flagstone, maybe in an irregular shape, and set properly. Definitely not concrete with your home : )

That's what I am thinking, Tish. I have a friend who did it last year. I think it is the sealer or something. Thanks for your kind words, Squirrel. You are reinforcing what I think I am already thinking. I am trying to talk myself into something other than what I have. I really think I need to find someone who can incorporate some of what I already have.

I forgot to post the link to photos of the flagstone I installed last year.

Here is a link that might be useful: deck and path construction

Geez, Uxorial, now you have me thinking deck again! I looked at your pictures and your yard is beautiful - much more than I will ever have --- I am going to take a few more pix tonight --- it has dried out a bit and the pictures won't look as bad as they did the first time! more later. thanks

no-green-thumb,

We will be having a patio installed this summer. Our house was constructed last summer, and we opted out of the standard concrete patio. Concrete has its drawbacks, including cracks which cannot be repaired. Patio pavers can be repaired or replaced if needed. And, if they are installed properly, they are very durable. Pavers come in lots of great styles.

If it were me, I'd go with either the flagstone or patio paver options. Concrete (even washed or stained) is still concrete, and it can crack, especially with the freeze/thaw cycle. It is not easily modified either. Decks are high maintenance, unless you go with a composite type of product or something.

Here is a picture of the brussels paver blocks we're getting, which come in a variety of colors:

Here is a link to the Brussels block, made by Unilock that we're going to have our patio constructed with:

Here is a link that might be useful: Unilock Wall and Pavers

"If I were to do concrete, I would have it acid washed instead of the stamping, but that is of course just my personal preference."

Don't use the acid wash stain. For the second year in a row, our patio has started flaking after the moisture underneath the concrete rises to the surface and freezes.

My brother has also had trouble with the stamped concrete.

We have friends with a multi level deck. They come out of their house at ground level, with a nice wide, covered "bar" area and then step up to a "lounge" area around their pool.

We have concrete slab patio with brick landings at our many sliders. I have a love-hate relationship with the concrete slab patios. UGLY. But, a smooth surface that's easy to walk on, great for bike and trike riding, sidewalk chalk, messy activities, easy to clean, doesn't get as hot as the brick during the summer, etc. I much prefer the look of the brick landings (ours are mortared -- no shifting here), but the slab patio has its perks, too. That said, when we redo the kitchen and replace the sliders, we have to take it all out because the landings are too low and don't meet code in our area (we're no longer allowed to have step-ups to get into the house).

Thanks for the thoughts. Jan, I had considered those pavers. What is concerning me about the pavers is the freeze-thaw - heaving, how long will they stay in place, etc. The area I have is mostly shaded, damp ground.
What I am thinking about now is:

Put a deck outside the sliding doors from the kitchen. It would also come off the door perpendicular to it which is one of the sunroom doors. That deck would have to be low to the ground as the door from the sunroom is only about 8 or so inches off the ground. Then I am thinking of taking out the step and concrete slab that comes out of the other door which is the laundry room. I would replace those with wooden steps?
Then I am thinking of using the largest of the pavers to come off of the deck and create a smaller area and also to go into the bed where the purple fence and AC is. So this walkway of sorts would go into that area and then I would have an area there for the grill. I hate having it sit on the patio.
I am thinking deck at the moment (and I know they require maintenance but I spend endless hours every summer filling in areas and trying to make those pavers even) because it will be above the ground. I would think given that my backyard is so shaded (although we are having a lot cut out in a week or so) even the pavers might be a problem. They would probably get all mossy. If I had a small deck, I could put my table out there, go out of the kitchen and drink my tea (either Salada or Long Island depending on time of day).
I don't want the deck to go the entire way across the back and really want another place for the grill - and since I have the pavers, I could use them.
If anyone has any thoughts on my latest idea, I would appreciate it!
I have taken a few new pix. It is still very wet out there and snow mold has killed most of the grass, but these are better than the ones I posted a few weeks ago.

This is a view of the entire area.

This is the right side facing the house, showing the laundry room door where I want to take out the concrete step and also where I want to extend the pavers to create a place for the grill.

This is a shot moving to the left.

This shows the door from the kitchen as well as the door from the sunroom.

A closer shot of how bad a job you can get for a lot of money!!

This shows the back of the sunroom last summer --- so I do get plants to grow!! mostly fern!

Pretty home with lot's of potential!

"That said, when we redo the kitchen and replace the sliders, we have to take it all out because the landings are too low and don't meet code in our area (we're no longer allowed to have step-ups to get into the house)."

That's the oddest code I have ever heard of. I would not want a house that I couldn't "climb" to get into. What's the reason and where do you live?

Newhomebuilder -- it was Sarschlos who commented about the code and the landings being too low, not me. It is very strange, isn't it. Maybe she will happen by again and explain.

Yes, I knew it wasn't you. I forgot to add Sarschlos name before the quote.

I'd do pavers...It would look beautiful. Just make sure you get someone who's done alot of patios and get some references from folks who had theirs done a few years back, and check whether they've had any of the issues you are worried about.

Nothing's 100% perfect, but I think the pavers that Jan in Wisconsin has planned would be beautiful in your yard too. I have seen some beautiful stamped concrete patios, there are all kinds of designs, colors and finishes, I know that they do stress joints and seams to avoid cracking.

But, I forget you said this, maybe Jan, the pavers would be easier to repair in the event they do heave vs. concrete. Maybe you can check with the installer guy to see if they have any warranty or guarantee on installation if it heaves etc.

no-green-thumb,

What a beautiful home and location. I see what you're saying now about the low level/moss problem. I recommended pavers, however, our home is on top of a natural sand hill, and we have the opposite problem - lack of moisture. So your situation is very different, and I understand your concern about the pavers moving.

Have you thought about hiring a landscape professional to design the space for you? Even if you would like to do the work yourself, they are educated about the issues you're dealing with and what your options could be. It would prevent you from erring in your choice of deck/patio/pavers.

Lovely place. I hope you are able to create the space you'd love.

Jan

If the pavers are installed properly, and they have a substantial base beneath them, they shouldn't heave or sink. If you have freeze/thaw, and the run off accumulates beneath your hardscape, you'll have problem. I'd really suggest that the patio area is excavated below the freeze line, at least 8 inches deep, then has a deep, well tamped sand layer, then a deep gravel layer (for drainage). It won't be cheap, but you won't have the heaving problems.

A good concrete patio will be constructed the same way, and will have plenty of scored lines to allow for expansion/contraction. We're going to have our driveway done this summer and stamp/acid stain. We've got a contractor to do the pouring, but we'll do the finish ourselves. We'll stamp & stain, but do it right...haha. DH is a concrete guy and knows what he's doing. Our neighbors had a new driveway done and it looks terrible. It WILL be cracking before long, no expansion joints. And they put a crummy stain, was supposed to be brick color but is uniform rose now that it's dried, and a shiny sealer. Ugh.

The key to success for your patio will be good prep work. Labor intensive, but it will pay off in the long run.

Just a couple of thoughts:

Pavers installed properly will not move or heave. Talk to a professional hardscaper and get some ideas.

I love moss. I am starting a moss garden on a path up the side of my house. It's moist shade and nothing else will grow there, LOL, but I do love the soft green woodsy stuff. If you learn to love moss, you can expand your options tremendously.

We used stamped concrete on our new home for our patio, driveway and sidewalk. If you've already seen this pic, my apologies. This is the second house where we've used stamped concrete, and it's worked out well for us.

That being said, at our old house we used pavers for a walkway in the backyard, where it was shady and grass didn't grow and I loved the look of it. Either way, you can't go wrong....
{{!gwi}}

Thanks so much for all of your ideas. Uxorial, your backyard is beautiful. Mclarke, I do love those Brussels pavers.
All of you have helped me figure out what I want and don't want. I don't want a patio that will just go from one side of the house to the other. I would like an area off the kitchen sliders and then I am envisioning using some of the current flagstone and then as I said above going into the bed on the right to make an area for the grill.
I want some interest, not just a big, boring slab whether it be a deck, concrete or pavers.
I am going to call some people in and see what they have to say. This is not going to be a DIY. I also know that I want this done yesterday and that's not going to happen either. It is going to take time to research.
I think that is what happened the last time. We had remodeled the kitchen which is when we put in the slider door, I wanted a patio done in the fall, so that in the Spring it would all be done. So I went to a reputable (so I thought) nursery and got an estimate and then the troubles started. He did a horrible job. In fact, he originally only had enough stone to do half - like he didn't know that! - and said the rest would wait until Spring, then all of a sudden he finished with little tiny pavers. So we almost ended up in court until he took that part out, but it is still a mess.
I certainly blame him -- but I also blame myself for not doing enough research. I just assumed that he had a nursery/landscaping business in the community for years and was reputable.
So now I know better and although I certainly don't want to waste anyone's time, I think I need several people out here to hear what they have to say, how deep they plan to dig, what base they will use, etc., etc. Thanks again. I am excited!!

Good luck NGT! I think that you are wise to go with a true pro for this one. We are building a flagstone walk. Dh outlined it and I decided that I would surprise one day and he would come home from work and all of it would be excavated, 6 inches deep (we have freezes but not like you do). I am either incredibly optimistic or incredibly naive or maybe a little bit of both. I got about 2 feet worth excavated, that is hard, back breaking work. I keep hoping my neighbor with the tractor will see me doing it and come over and do it, otherwise, when it is done, my back and arm muscles are going to be nicely chiseled. If I had the money, I would definitely pay somebody else to it and stick with the flabby arms.

Tish, not that we have tons of money and I really prefer DIY, but I also know how heavy and hard this would be. We installed ceramic in the sunroom, about 20' x 24', and that was a back breaker! Plus, I want to make sure it is done right. I would have no problem if it were a much smaller area. Hey, you could do what my original guys did - take out the grass, plop the pavers down, voila - here's your patio lady!

Call in LOTS of hardscaping guys and pick their brains. They will all have ideas... and it won't cost you anything.

After they leave, write everything down. If you liked or didn't like them, whether they had good ideas...

When we had our front walk done, I interviewed twelve hardscapers. Yep, TWELVE! It was arduous, but I learned a lot.

And now that it's time to do our back patio, a much larger job, I have a very good idea what I'm doing. I will probably use the same guy, but I still called back three of the best contractors from the first encounter to get their ideas.

Mclarke, that is what I plan to do. I have now resigned myself to the fact that this is not going to be done in a blink! My plan was to have everything completed by the time by son and DIL move back at the end of June. I will need to help them. But at the same I do not want another fiasco like in the pictures above. I do a lot of sales presentations and don't always get the sale!! That's what these guys will have to do as well. I don't know that I could do 12, but I am sure I will have several people out here. Also, there are some who do just decks, some do just pavers. I would like their opinions as well as to why their materials are the best.

If you decide on a deck, there are some man-made materials that don't need to be re-stained yearly. One brand name is Trex; I'm sure that there are others. I don't have personal experience with it, but I think it's worth investigating. Good luck.

Lynne, the deck company I have a call into can use the Trex.
I just called someone who does pavers, but I think this guy is really big into landscape design. What I think he wants to do is come over, give a ballpark, then all the design is an additional charge. It almost sounds like he wants to dynamite my back yard and start from scratch! But maybe in the long run, that would be the best plan.

Does anyone have any idea ballpark of costs to do what I want. I was kind of thinking that for $5M or so I could get a decent patio????? This guy was talking like his jobs are a lot bigger - although he says he does the small stuff as well.

An interesting thread. I've dealt with some similar issues to ones mentioned.

Regarding no steps down to a patio, I addressed with an egress porch. Basically, I built a small deck with landing style steps.

Where we live, frost can penetrate up to 36". The gravel base is more than 12" at the outside edge of our paver patio. But, french drains were incorporated into the patio and they daylight about 25' away. There has been minimal frost heave in 10 years which has been easily corrected. We selected pavers so that any settling/frost heave problems would be correctable.

Our patio design was DIY, as was the construction. The flanking landscaping was designed by a local nursery to soften the patio and recommend the correct plants. I've linked photos of the patio below, last year the Pergola was added and it can be viewed from "My Page"

Here is a link that might be useful: Our Patio

I did not read all of the posts, but here's a shot of our small backyard. We have a concreted flagstone driveway turnaround and an island made out of chat (I think that's what it's called). I originally wanted the island made out of the flagstone, but for drainage reasons, we had to have a permeable material there. I really like how the chat turned out and it's easy maintenance ... just rake it. Having it outlined in stone contains all of the chat. I'm seeing more of this done in our area. Mostly in pathways through a garden and driveways even ... ours is the only island that I've seen. I now have a hammock on the island (but it's not pictured).

Someone above mentioned synthetic decking materials. I can't believe I don't have a picture of it, but we have a second-story balcony that spans the width of the house and it's made out of Trex or similar decking materials. It was installed about a year ago and it's holding its color nicely. Love that we don't have to worry about splinters and don't have to restain a second story deck ever. We were warned that it would fade some, though.

Wow, Fnm - you did that yourselves! What a lot of work, but worth the end results. Your yard is beautiful. I wish ours wasn't quite so shaded. I know a lot of great stuff grows in the shade, but there is nothing like the colors of flowers growing in the sun.
Sooner, another great idea. I am going to investigate Trex, although I know it is expensive.
The guy I just called is starting to freak me out. I have an online questionnaire to fill out and he wants blueprints of the property. Huh? The phone lines in the middle of the woods and the fence on the side. What more boundaries does he need. I think he does really high end stuff. I have calls in to a few other people. So far no one has returned my calls.

We replaced an old wood deck with pavers several years ago and still LOVE the pavers. We don't have any freeze/thaw issues here, so I can't help you with that, but I would suspect if the pavers are correctly installed, they should be stable.

I think your $5K estimate seems reasonable as your area doesn't look too large and the area is flat. But I don't know how much excavation would be needed to put in a stable base, so the cost could go higher.

We used Pavestone pavers and contracted with an installer via Home Depot. The installer did an awesome job and we were extremely pleased. I did the design (long story - tried for months to hire a landscape architect) but I would do it again. The pavers gave me the flexibility to soften the concrete look with terraced beds (on a sloping backyard). I didn't have room to use curved edges, but you seem to have plenty of space for that and the pavers work well for that, too. You could do a similar look with beds bordering the patio area AND curved edges. There are lots of different colors and looks available in the pavers and I think you could find some that work with your home style.

My only issue with the pavers after several years of use is that seeds sprout in the cracks (filled with sand) and I have to either spray or pull them periodically. But that's a relatively minor issue IMO.

You have a lovely setting! Can't wait to see what you decide.


Our Pavestone deck

{{!gwi}}

Native, that is sooooo gorgeous. I could only dream of living on the water!!
I just talked with a deck guy that I really wanted to come out here. I don't think I can do anything with a deck as I only have 6-1/2" depth outside the patio door. So now my vision is shot. He said he would still come out as he might be able to come up with something. He was so nice. He went to the same school as my kids a few years prior. I told him I would send pictures first as I did not want to waste his time if he couldn't help me.
Wodka, your concrete looks absolutely beautiful. I just took another look at your picture.
The deck person I just talked to said he is doing stamped around his deck and for the walkway. I asked him - why not pavers??? He said because of the huge freeze/thaw we have around here. Of course, this is just his opinion, but something to consider.
So I will keep you posted - this is turning into a very interesting project for me!!

soonermagic: Do you find that the chat gets dragged into the house at all? I am looking at doing something similar but am worried about my wood floors getting scratched.

NGT,
We have stained/stamped concrete around the pool.
I like it but would have loved travertine pavers - too much $$
Anyways, here is a pic for you. I love pics when making a decision:)
Oh, and your backyard is not a war zone!!

Another vote here for pavers. I just don't like the way that concrete eventually cracks. Pavers are easily repairable if installed properly.

You can also use the pattern and different colors to lay out different areas, which lends a nice architectural feel to the decorating. Here's a shot of my travertine pavers. You can see we used a different color for the border, and also laid the border at a different angle from the field.

If you decide to get pavers, make sure you get the polymeric sand to fill between them rather than regular sand. I didn't know about it at the time, and I regret not doing it! The polymeric sand hardens up to prevent shifting and loose sand, and also keeps weeds from sprouting between the pavers.

Johna, yours is beautiful. Neil, yours is beautiful.

Before everyone gets sick of hearing about my patio --- let me ask another question.
Somewhere along the way, someone mentioned setting the flagstone I have in concrete. Does anyone have pictures of that? I am intrigued by the idea.
Right now, I am going to pour a glass of wine, make some fajitas and go sit on my now yucky patio contemplating the future one. It is a beautiful day here, rare for mid-April so we need to enjoy!! Back later!! Thanks!!

johnatemp, your pool and patio are beautiful. People keep mentioning here about concrete cracking, I was wondering how yours was holding up. We had stamped concrete at both our old house and now at our new one, but have not experienced the cracked concrete that is mentioned here. Is it because we have mild winters or have just been lucky? (with the exception of Katrina.)

At our old house we had the Brussels pavers for a shady walkway in our backyard and we did experience the weeds and also little tiny "critters" that would appear through the cracks. That's good to know for future reference the difference between the polymeric sand and the regular sand (we apparently had the "regular.")

no-green-thumb,

You mentioned your huge freeze-thaw cycle. Where do you live? We live in northern Wisconsin where the winters drop to 35 degrees below zero (with the wind chill, it's much worse) and the summers heat up to over 100 degrees some days. A lot of people have pavers in our area.

Jan (in Wisconsin)

Jan, I live in northern Ohio - it would be better if it stayed cold, but what happens most winters is that we have cold spells, then warm spells (I mean warmer than the cold ones). That causes lots of problems with our roads, huge potholes every Spring. Roads here are always a mess. It would be better if it stayed either warm or cold.
Maybe that won't even be an issue when I get people out here for estimates. I just know what it does to the roads -and this year what it did to our lawn. We had huge doses of wet, heavy snow - like 2 ft in one storm. It laid on the grass for a very long time and there is a lot of snow mold. Our fertilizer guy was out last week and said this is about the worst he has ever seen the snow mold. It usually happens when people don't rake up their leaves and they sit on the lawn all winter.
Again, maybe no big deal, but certainly something to ask about when I get people out here.

Someone above asked about the chat dragging into the house ... no I haven't had a problem with that, but I don't have pets or kiddos, and I use outdoor gardening shoes that stay outside about 90% of the time that I'm out in that area of the yard. I have hardwood floors, too, and have not experienced a problem with the chat. I've never even seen a piece of it inside the house.

If anyone is still reading this thread, I'll give you an update. I cannot do any decking as I do not have enough clearance on the patio door. It is only 7". They need 11 -1/2". So that eliminated that possibility.
I called a few people - and of course, haven't received callbacks yet.
I did call one person that I had heard of through a friend. He has quite a large company, does landscaping, patios, etc. The way he works is that he comes out, looks the property over, then does a design. We paid $300 to have the design done, which I do not think is unreasonable. He, of course, hopes that we will work with him because he is certainly not making any money just doing designs!
We talked about concrete and pavers. He suggested pavers for a number of reasons, the main one besides asthetics being that if they move or crack, they can be fixed. I need to read my paperwork, but I believe he said he guarantees them for two years and if during that time anything moves around, he will fix it. He also said that most, if any at all, movement will occur in the first two years.
He suggested that the tree I want to get rid of might infringe on anything we do - the roots. With that, DH said to take it out. Yeah!!! Victory!! As I said, he asks for so little that I was not going to argue that point.
So, I am awaiting his design which he said would be about 2 -3 weeks.
JAN IN WISCONSIN -- if you see this ---- he showed me a book with pavers. He asked if I liked the sqaured off corners or the more rounded ones. I said the rounded ones. I picked out the Brussels pavers. I haven't seen them yet, but from the catalog, that would be my first choice. Then I reread this thread and see that is what you are using!!!!! What color did you choose???
I am excited. I know his plan is going to come in at way more than I am willing to pay. But he is also willing to work in stages or have us do part. He even said things like - the step coming from the sliding door. Right now, there are two steps. I really only need one, so that is a cost savings. I really think he knows what he is talking about, so we'll see what happens.
Again, thanks to all for your help. I am so very excited!! As I thought about it, we haven't even used the back and the patio in the last few years. I didn't even like going out there. Now I look forward to being out there, drinking tea (Salada or Long Island depending on the time of day) and enjoying summer - at least part of it. I am sure this will all take awhile to get done.