Help me understand full sun/part sun for difficult spot

12 years ago

Hi everyone,

I'm fairly clear on full sun and full shade concepts, but I need help interpreting the sun rules for a difficult spot here in the East Bay where I want to put at least *one* of my roses.

It's in a slightly shaded alcove in my front yard in a prominent space in front of my dining room bay window. The space faces due west--which for those of you unfamiliar with northern california is pretty darn hot and sunny in the summer. But there's an overhang, so in the morning, this spot is completely shaded by the house--year round. In the Winter and Early Spring, is is shaded until about 1:30 pm. In the summer and fall, with the sun higher in the sky, it gets direct overhead sun starting by noon, and goes strong until sunset. And the sun is pretty intense.

So "shade" doesn't exactly describe this spot, especially with the reflected heat off the house.

The question is, is it enough sunshine for an OGR rose? What roses can handle that extreme shift from cool (sometimes dewy/damp) dark spot in the morning to blaring dry hot sun in the afternoon). I started out initially with mostly HPs and have expanded out to Bourbons and Teas. (I keep buying... aack.)

This bed is a bit shallow (i.e. not far away from the foundation to the lawn), so the roses I'm considering for this spot (below) are based entirely on my understand of their final size hoping they'd get to 4-5' tall and about 4-5' wide max.

How would these tolerate this kind of sun exposure?

-Vick's Caprice

-Gruss an Aachen

-Pink Gruss an Aachen

-Vineyard Song

-Sophie's Perpetual

-Souvenir de Victor Hugo

I also have Mrs. Dudley Cross, but I was *slightly* worried she might be too large for this space... but upon further research I think she might stay 5' tall x 5' wide? (And they're slow to build?) And did you know she was designated earthkind last year?

(I also have Souvenir de la Malmaison, but she seems to be happiest in a container where she stays dry and gets about 8 solid hours of sun year round... so why tempt fate where SdlM is concerned. LOL).

Ahh... decisions decisions.

Thanks for your help,

Kmama

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Comments (13)

jacqueline9CA
12 years ago
I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with the roses you listed, but I am familiar with that kind of site - I have one with what sounds like exactly the same kind of exposure directly in front of my front stairs. The exposure is due West, but it is near our 3 story house, so in the morning it gets shaded by the house. It is Pax (Pemberton, 1918), an old hybrid musk. Look it up on HMF and see what you think. It has grown there happily for over 20 years.

Jackie
jerijen
12 years ago
We have several spots like this. Some are morning sun and some are afternoon sun, and they all putt along just fine.

I've come to think that, for California at least, the 8-hours-of-sun "thing" is a tad over-rated. Our hours of daylight are LONG. Half-day sun works pretty well for things that don't have biggie mildew problems.

The only concern I'd have is cane-burn? So if the roses develop "bare legs" over time, I'd be prepared to plant some dwarf lavender (or something like that) at their feet, to screen them?

I think I might go for one of the Gruss an Aachens, but that may be because three of the others committed suicide rather than live here.

And Vineyard Song was so chlorotic I put it out of its misery. (It, however, wanted to be drapey, like a giant 'Sweet Chariot,' so I consider it a rose to drape over a wall?)

What do we have in such spots? A whole lot of things, including Grandmother's Hat and even Fourth of July.

Jeri
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kristimama
Original Author
12 years ago
Jeri, is there a single thing that Grandmother's Hat won't do... a place she won't bloom? She sounds so wonderful, I think I'm going to have to see if I can manage to get *another* one at the celebration in El Cerrito. Are you planning to bring some for the auction?

Good to know about Vineyard Song being drapey... I bought it for its supposed resemblance to a small Excellenz von Schubert... but I can find a rock wall to trail it over.

I really do like the Gruss an Aachens and plan to use them in a few spots throughout the garden to fill in between the salvias. I first read about them on Carolyn Parker's blog... she says that Pink GaA grows fabulously here, so I'll take her word for it.

Jackie... I LOVE the hybrid musks. That was my initial thought, but I didn't make this bed very deep (i.e. away from the wall) and I'm afraid most of the hybrid musks I like would just be too massive. Maybe I'll look back into a hybrid musk... hmmm... just what I need... more roses to buy. :-)
rosefolly
12 years ago
Just thought I'd mention that I removed my own 'Vick's Caprice' because of rampant rust each and every year. I'm in the South Bay, and it was in an east-facing bed, morning to early afternoon sun, then mid-to-late afternoon shade. This was probably its ideal exposure, and it still rusted badly. I do have roses that rust that I keep because they are favorites, but they are nothing like as bad as this one was.

This ties in to our discussion elsewhere on regionalism. I believe this would be a fine rose where rust is not a problem, or is only a problem in late fall.

R
jerijen
12 years ago
Kristi -- Clay and I won't be at Celebration this spring. We'll be somewhere between TX and CA at about that time, likely headed West, but not home.

We're leaving in the last days of April for Tulsa, OK, for a big dog event, and will head East and South following it. We'll be visiting family, and friends, and rose gardens as well, with an agenda still not set in concrete.

So, no HRG Silent Auction this spring. Maybe next year? :-)

Jeri
kristimama
Original Author
12 years ago
Rosefolly... that is interesting about Vick's Caprice... yes these regional anecdotes are very helpful. I have a spot where I can put Mr. Caprice where it will get a longer period of sunshine in a drier spot... and hopefully that will keep the rust away? Are you also the one who said Honorine de Brabant does well in your yard? She is covered in rust (or some other sort of black spots) in my yard right now. Go figure.

Jeri, you and Clay sound like you have a wonderful spring planned. You'll be missed at the Celebration, I'm sure. Happy travels.
organic_tosca
12 years ago
I, too, have a very similar exposure - although my garden is on a balcony with an overhang (the floor of the balcony of the 3rd floor apartment - I am on the 2nd). In midsummer it faces directly west, and the rest of the time it has the sun angled to the south. My problem is magnified by the big trees that grow about 8-10 yards away. It's an extremely challenging situation for my roses. I only have 3, and they are in containers. I did have more, but I had to give away the deep red ones, as one simply couldn't take the heat, and the other was going to turn out to be a monster. I loved them both, but it was for the best. Of my 3 remaining ones, they all get the blooms a bit singed in the really hot weather. I move them around from time to time to help them out. They do bloom, and they seem healthy, but it's clear that they would be happier in a more optimal situation.

Laura
kristimama
Original Author
12 years ago
Laura, Brava to you for growing them where you can. I do a lot in containers too, and I am going to end up putting at least a couple in containers this year.

Just curious as I hijack my own thread... what potting mix do you use?

-k
seil zone 6b MI
12 years ago
All my rose beds have a western exposure here. The roses seem to like it. But then I don't get the heat that you get either. At least not for as long a stretch as you do. It does seem to be plenty enough sun for them to bloom though!
strawchicago z5
12 years ago
Hi Kristimama: Douglas Green in his book for Northern climate had a chart that specified what time frame of the day constitute partial shade versus full sun. If you google "Douglas Green" in this forum, you will find my summary of his definition of partial shade.

Hi Seil: I love western exposure. It gets the warmest sun in the winter for the roses. In the summer, there's a nice breeze in the west to cool off, versus a scorching hot sourthern exposure.
organic_tosca
12 years ago
Kristimama - I use Black Magic potting soil. It seems to be widely available, and it was highly recommended by a very knowledgeable person on this forum. It's a tad expensive, but since my roses have so much to contend with already, I felt they deserved it. I should have mentioned that I have only had roses for about 4 years, so I'm far from expert. I've learned a lot, however, due to volunteering once a week at the Sacramento Historic Rose Garden in the old city cemetery (a wonderful place to spend a few hours, working or not!).

I also should have mentioned that my roses are about to face an even more challenging environment: After yellowjackets came every summer that we've been here (4 years), last summer they built a nest in the rolled-up "privacy screens" on the balcony, directly above my roses. The exterminator said that they would be bound to come back, as they find those rolled-up screens to be a perfect nesting site (it keeps them warm, etc.), and that it would be best to keep the screens rolled down. They're part of the balcony (i.e., the property of the apartment complex), so I can't get rid of them. They are down now, as I am allergic to bees and wasps. SO... the roses (and my other plants, succulents) will get even less sun than before. This coming summer is an experiment - I'm hoping that the screens being down will produce a dappled shade effect, thus shielding things from frying, while still letting in enough sunlight to keep everything more or less happy. We shall see. As Amelia Peabody would say, "Another challenge! I'm up to it!" -- at least, I hope so.

Laura
rathersmallbunny
12 years ago
Hi there, I'm on the SF peninsula and though I haven't grown the OGR roses you mentioned, I suspect that David Austin roses might work well for your spot. I found that they seemed pretty shade tolerant for me here (even balling and crisping when there's too much sun).

Last year I moved two DA roses in half barrels into a half shade situation much like yours -- maybe even less sun, since they were only getting about 3-4 hours max a day of direct sunlight. I was really surprised that they went right on blooming and actually seemed to do better. Just a suggestion if you're still thinking about it!
kristimama
Original Author
12 years ago
I love getting all the advice. Thanks everyone!

Can you believe I'm going to try the Mrs. Dudley Cross here, in part because I already own it... and I've seen a number of encouraging posts from Luxrosa's about how Teas (and Chinas) are best suited to our climate and bloom the most frequently here in the Bay Area. It's worth a shot, I suppose.

I also bought Souvenir de Victor Hugo... I may put this one there instead because Vintage Gardens says it grows to about 5' tall, which would be just perfect.

If those don't work, I guess I'll go back to the Mexican Sage that was there before because I. Must. Stop. Buying. Roses. LOL :-)

Thanks,
Kmama

Help me understand full sun/part sun for difficult spot

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