My comment is please don't put any more on. It must surely be very harmful to your soil life, as well as extremely expensive!
I suggest sheet-mulching with cardboard and a really thick layer of mulch (chipped trees, spoiled hay, leaves...)
A caveat: I don't have Bermuda grass here, or know your conditions, so hopefully someone with local knowledge will chip in.
Gypsum may also help, but mulch and compost are always my first recommendations!

Ditto. My soil can get as hard packed as yours, no room for worms, etc. Solid like rock. DON'T put that stuff on it!! Lasagna garden or sheet mulching will take a few years, but it's the best way to go. You can start planting in a lasagna garden a few months after setting it up, and your first job is to grow the dirt in which to grow the plants. Check out the great info on this forum and other places, and remember, there are no shortcuts to good soil. Whatever possessed you to try fabric softener, for heaven's sake?!?!

What that fabric softener does is redfuces the surface tension of the water so it appears to flow through things easier, giving the allusion that, in this instance, the soil has been improved. The only real way to improve clay soils, or sandy soils for that matter, is to add organic matter to those soils. In clay the organic matter gets between the soil particles, seperates them so water, nutrients, and plant roots can move through that soil more freely. In sand the organci matter fills in the pore spcaes between the soil particles so water and nutrients are held in that soil ratheer then flowing out with the water and your plant roots then have ample time to utilize them.
Most all fabric softeners are made from materials that are not sustainable.

Re: dense clay .... My clay deposits range in color from red to gray. If you are on a housing tract lot, you may find that the soil has been layered. I found [along with construction debris] DG under the clay layer, followed by more clay. You may want to test how deep the layer/strata of clay is.

Re: fabric softener ... you may want to grow a test plant/seedling in the spots treated with softener ... and I would guess that the 'stuff' in the softener will not build healthy soil ... pretty sure worms will not like it.

Re: worms ... I've found worms the next thing to magic in taming my clay/DG combo. As an experiment, I built several cones of fertilizer/soil mix ... populated with red worms harvested from horse manure pile .. kept it moist and added kitchen scraps. At the end of about a year, when I dug under the 'cone', the soil was amazing ... MAGIC!

Re: Bermuda grass ... that's a whole 'nother problem! Took me several years to finally see the last of that horrid plant!. Layers of cardboard and carpet in pathways and dilligent digging the slightest sprout in raised beds were what won the day in that battle.

BTW in my opinion clay soils [once tamed/ammended] are THE BEST IN THE WORLD!

Yes, amended clays are the best. I now have just that here in OR.

As for adding gypsum to any clay soil, forget it unless you have a professional soil test that says your soil has excess sodium.

Among the reasons why clay is so hard:
1. The tiny particles fit together very tightly
2. The clay is dry
3. Little to no organic matter

So as has been said several times, add organic matter. Lots. And continue to add more every season. Choose the method(s) that sound best to you. All work.

Jean,
who previously gardened for 30-some years in SoCal.

I have bermuda grass...it is the only thing I have found that will come up thru 12 layers of newspapers! ((eye-roll))
Don't think fabric softener will help anything much & doubt it is good for the soil & the micro organisims that live there.
All the suggestions above are good. I have concrete hard clay soil down here in SW Ga. You know, that red stuff you see in pictures...well, mine isn't really red it is sort of orange & some places require a pick ax to dig 3" deep!
The areas where I have put down mulch (no tilling) have softened over the years & are no longer orange...they look more like dirt & feel like dirt. It is a slow process but I now have WORMS, LOTS of worms but just in those areas!!!

I agree with those who opt for mulch and/or compost. Lasagna compost would be ideal here; it has worked wonders in my garden that was hard as a rock. In fact, I though it was rock! True story.
I also agree fabric softener (fabric softener?) would probably harm your soil ... and, I might add, the very worms you are trying to cultivate!

Stop doing that!

Fabric softeners can act as soil dispersant, which would only make the clay worse as it degrades any natural structure it may have.

Keep in mind that fabric softeners can induce attacks in Asthmatics. People thinking of using these tings might want to read the attached.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fabric softeners

Thanks all. I have been doing battle with the clay for many years. I live in the Mojave High Desert. I have six "rooms" appx 14 ft x 16 ft, plus the 4000+ sq ft of turf/native grass area. The heavy rains of the last 3 yrs, surprisingly is bringing to the surface, some of the original soil that I believe existed prior to the tract of homes being built. Some areas are downright easy to work in. The soil here seems to run in ribbon patterns. When digging, I have found a thread of sandy soil, then some feet away, I hit hard red clay. The soil is very alkaline and there isn't enough money or amendments to treat this yard of 72 ft x 78 ft. I used the fabric softener on an area where the bermuda grass is growing to cut the tension in the soil so digging out the bermuda would be easier. I was able to clear one bed but it required digging down 2 ft or more as the roots will go as deep as necessary to survive. It will lay dormant waiting for necessary positive conditions to grow. You cannot leave any root in the ground at all. Covering it over with cardboard, carpet, newspapers is simply giving you a false sense that you have successfully conquered it. You must dig it out. Building the soil at this immediate time is not my concern, only getting the bermuda out. Once out, I can begin to build the soil. Also, I found the bermuda will grow and attach itself to cement curbing, stone stepping stones, or under cement patios, again waiting. Once I discovered that and scraped everything clean, that gave me the triumph over bermuda in the one bed. I swear that stuff is a thinking alien. Mainly wondered if anyone had found a way to break the soil tension to make digging easier. At 59, I've worn my body out doing this very hard gardening and am looking for any easier solutions. I have come to the realization that I must rely on native plants only and if I want some little color spots, they must be small, very managable, close to the house to enjoy and of course xeric due to water issuses. The battle rages on.

Well kids, I just spent the last hour or so doing some raking and decided to go over to my fabric softener test patch of soil to see if I could move the big clumps of bermuda grass out of the soil. Not only did my garden fork sink into 8 - 9 inches of clay soil easily but I was able to go around the patch that had come to the surface, approx 14" around(bermuda exists deep under the earth and comes up to set new patches)and lifted the patch out with ALL the roots attached. I know I should report to Soil Jail but if I can lift out these patches sooner, I can begin to put down manure, compost, and compost tea. My body will likely be thanking me for this also. This was a test to see if would work. It was not meant to be a solution as a soil amender used throughout my yard, just to get the patches of bermuda out. The spring weeds by the way don't seem to be bothered by the fabric softener at all, they are still flourishing. Those I'll get with the hula hoe.

I've followed this thread but stayed out of it 'cause I have no clue what the softener would do.

I am curious to know just how much it was diluted and most of all, what made you think to try this method. I have never heard of doing this so was wondering if this was just something out of the blue or was there some background information you had. I'm just curious.

Lloyd

Well Lloyd, you know what curiousity can do. Solve problems, create problems, never know till tried.

As I posted my whereabouts and have battled with clay soil for years, I simply wanted to break the tension in the soil that holds clay soil together as that hard, sticky substance that is horrid to garden in. Over the years people on the "organic gardening" forum talked about a variety of different "things" to use to help break apart clay. Baby shampoo cut with water is a common one, surfecants basically are what one looks for, meaning what will separate those very fine soil particles that hold so tightly. There are many on the market, Lazy Man, Aerify, Soil Soup etc. They put beneficial bacteria into the soil plus add surfecants like soap or other chemical agents similar to Jet Dry or water softeners. Surfecants are what give dish detergent or cleaning solutions their slippery feel. I am becoming kind of desperate due to wearing my body out trying to dig in amendments to my soil, spraying on soil treatments, to break up the soil. I need to get some patches of bermuda grass dug out. They are anchored firmly in rock hard clay soil. I just got a little desperate trying to figure out how to work the soil and get the bermuda grass out. So I was thinking that about the most concentrated surfecant that I had in the house was fabric softener. So I tossed in the same amount that would go into a wash load and added about 6 gallons of water to apply it to the area of bermuda I wanted to dig out. Ask your wife or another gal what her washing is like if softener is not added. Towels are scratchy, not soft. Clothing will wrinkle and not relax w/o the addition of softener. You've likely felt the difference bwtwn softened water and untreated water with all the minerals in place. Softened water makes your skin feel soft, your hair isn't tangled. Untreated water causes water spots on glass, skin feels dried out after drying off. Surfecants relax the surfaces that it touches basically. This is not the way to treat clay soil in the yard. But I needed an easy solution to a tough problem that plagues soil around here and that is bermuda. It loves hot weather, is a weed often unless you get a hybrid of bermuda.

Don't ever not jump into a thread. Always ask questions, always contribute. Sometimes the responses sound harsh but you can't let that stop you. People are trying to help each other here even if it sounds a little harsh sometimes. Now the Organic Gardening forum can become kind of a real testosterone battle but you will learn by reading, asking, and contributing.

If you are struggling with clay soil or sandy soil or even if you have great soil a book worth reading to make you a soil expert would be: Teaming with Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels & Wayne Lewis. It's a small book, cheap on Amazon but they will teach you soil science basically. Every avid gardener should read this book.

Thanks for asking a question Lloyd. You'll find we all want to teach and we all have the best answers. LOL. Jump in anytime on any subject.

eureka, I didn't get from your initial post that it was a controlled experiment type situatiion, and I do wish you'd elaborated a bit...
maybe I should have investigated 'fabric softener, clay'.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it further.

Sometimes it's best to wait until all the dust has settled in a thread then ask for further information or clarification if it is not evident in posts. I don't have a clay issue but your method intrigued me. It didn't seem like you were a gardening nymph just trying something out of the blue so I suspected there was an underlying theory.

Thanks again.

Lloyd

Pippimac:

Now worries, as I said it was strickly an experiment in a patch. The bigger story of course is that it is an attempt to soften the soil so I can dig out the bermuda. I have a background in purchasing a wide variety of products for a school district. In buying janitorial supplies, I learned a lot about how cleaning products are mixed and what is added to break the bond of soil on tile, linoleum, all sorts of surfaces. The big item here is surfecants. Baby shampoo is, as I responded to Lloyd, one of the old time liquids thinned with water and applied to clay soil to break the soil up. If you read my post to Lloyd, you saw the book I recommended regarding soil and adding microbes which is also an easy way to get the soil loosened and able to release the nutrients that get locked up in clay.

It is very hard to decide to provide a lot of info or just basic due to how people will react. People in the threads tend towards over reaction and then instruct on all that they know on the topic. I am very well versed in soil science but I was curious if anyone else had gotten desperate enough to try some really off the wall solutions & what results they saw. It can be difficult to judge how much to share or not share, and of course no one wants to offend. I'm just relieved that the fabric softener seems to work at digging the bermuda out. I would really like to start a meadow type area in the designated turf area w/taller meadow grass further from the house and Buffalo grass closer to the house. I'd also like to throw some wild flower seed in the mix. When gardening in a desert atmosphere, I come to realize I can't grow a cottage garden, or an english garden, I need to grow things that make it in your area & Africa, Mexico, Arizona and that limits me in many ways especially because I would love a cottage type garden. My yard faces West which really makes it even harder. Container gardening is very hard as pots get so hot, plants steam to death. It's all very unique. Thank you for responding to my post.

Using fabric softners, shampoos, etc. as soil softeners is neither sustainable nor eco friendly because they are made of non renewable resources and do not, in the long run, improve the health of soils.
All that is needed to make any soil better is organic matter.

Your absolutely right kimmsr. As I said, it is a desperate measure for a desperate female trying to dig out a real nuisance plant. I kid you not when I say I have beaten my body up working this clay. With time, I just can't do what I used to, my back, hips and legs are damaged from pushing through too hard for too long. I don't have any help. This isn't a long term practice, just a quick solution hoping to save my body some pain and get rid of a nuisance. Promise. I can't let the bermuda exist while improving the soil. The bermuda must go now before it's growing season begins and it grows out further and deeper. That is my only goal at the moment.

After reading this thread a bit, I did some searching/researching on common fabric softener ingredients. Among the more common ones are:

1. Quaternary ammonium compounds - While these *do* have a surfactant effect, they also have antibacterial effects, so less-than-ideal for soil treatment on that count.

2. Imidazoliums; Another class of surfactants, which are anti-fungal in their action. So, probably "no" on those too.

The presence of the above certainly explains why your experiment worked - surfactants.

3. Alcohols - good ol' ethanol for one, and fatty alcohols like stearyl alcohol or cetyl alcohol. While most of these are produced from renewable sources, they're sub-optimal soil additives.

4. Antistatic agents - common ones are cocamidopropyl betaine, esters of phosphoric acid or polyethylene glycol, and a bunch of others I can't pronounce.

5. Some softeners also contain silicone compounds, both as softeners and anti-foaming agents. While the aforementioned ingredients are biodegradable, silicones are not. Definitely don't want 'em in yer garden.

And there are bunches of other chemicals in fabric softeners as well - pH adjusters (acidic & basic), colorings, perfumes, and who knows what else.

While a purpose-made soil surfactant might work, it's still less than friendly to any subsoil critters.

In a high-desert climate like yours, I'd definitely look into gypsum - I'm no soils expert, but I've got to think that if anywhere would have clay soils high in sodium, the Mojave is it. It's a temporary fix, but one that would allow you to get a bunch of organic matter turned in.

Jason

OP's county Extension office has the correct advice for management of her soil, and will certainly know if it has excess sodium.

Use this clickable map from the USDA
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/

Here is a link that might be useful: locate your county Extenion office

Maybe I sound dense, But considering all those chemicals that Jason found, wouldn't it be just as good (or bad) to use some roundup on that grass and be done with it?

Nope. RoundUp does not work on Bermuda grass because it does not travel all the way down to the roots. It will kill off the visible bermuda grass and will take it back to maybe a couple of inches of root but that will not kill the very obnoxious roots that will lay under cement, down deep in soil 16" down and will stay put until the conditions are right for it to spring forth again. That's why as I wrote earlier, I dug down at least 2 ft. to make sure I had dug out all of the roots of bermuda. If one hasn't pulled out a thick, about half a pencil thickness, ropey yellowish root completly. I also actually flipped over 3 of the 3 ft molded cement edgings to scrape the underside clean to make sure there were no roots attached there and hiding.

I have now been able to dig out a patch of bermuda that is actually more like 4ft x 5ft underground, something I didn't want to find out but was able to because I WAS ABLE TO DIG DOWN BECAUSE THE SOIL WAS SOFTENED BY THE FABRIC SOFTENER before the bermuda could begin sending out the new thick roots. AND as I said, once I can clear the bernuda, I can begin to build the soil again.

Folks, we need to be reading the full posts of why people are doing what they are doing, we do not need to bash people over the head and preach unless you have done the same amount of work in the same soil that I am. No amount of amendment will make the bermuda go away. No matter how long I wait and add more soil amendments to work their way down 12 - 24", the bermuda will just continue to increase it's area. Are we taking that into consideration while your telling me all the bad things I'm doing to my soil. Have you read all the soil science about how quickly soil amendments break down in clay soil? Did you know that amendments can disappear in as little as two months, DISAPPEAR, NO SIGN THAT THEY WERE THERE. Clay soil breaks down amendments so fast that it is difficult to stay up with the breaking down. Did you see the size of my yard? Can you turn over all that soil every two months with new amendments and where will you get a minumum of 15 YARDS of amendments every 2 months? That isn't supossition, that is soil science fact. Have you read all MY posts on this thread to understand what & why I was willing to give the fabric softener a try? Do you understand that in the Mojave our soil can be cement like and hopefully we don't run into caliche' clay that requires a jack hammer to break through. So as an experiment as I said in the very beginning, I tried some fabric softener cut with six gallons of water to hopefully break the soil a bit so I didn't have to kill myself trying to dig the bermuda out of hard, very hard soil. So please take your self righteous, organic mind set and stick it under my cement like soil because YOU won't be tough enough to dig it out. Read, listen to what the writer is saying, and help. Don't preach.

Hi Kimmsr:
I've got no arguement with what you say. I know how fast any amendment breaks down in this soil. I do get a fair amount of smaller leaves in my backyard in the planter areas. I often rake them into smaller piles and let them break down in place and spread out the resulting compost. What is hard is to come up with enough amending matter to cover what is the outlined turf area. This isn't an area to have true grass but buffalo grass is great and with that I also wanted to try meadow planting of native grasses. I sure would like to clear out the bermuda but ultimately I suppose that is a losing battle, I just hate to let it take over because it does invade everything.
By digging it out now prior to the heat, I have a fighting chance. Actually, I'm feeling very defeated because I do work hard using clippings, leaves, etc. that I do have access to. I have the medium size chipper that takes up 1 1/2" branches but this is a desert and there is a limited amount of stuff to munch up. Also, we just get hit each year by so many weeds even though there is landscape fabric on about half the yard with thick inch size rocks on top. It's highly frustrating and my body is wearing out. I'm tired of hurting and I'm tired of not winning any weed battles,& soil battles. I just detest the tone that many of the people take on these threads; they bash people over the head without fully taking in the info, I hate that attitude. Words convey more than facts.

I'll go take a couple of Aleve and keep trying.

"So please take your self righteous, organic mind set "

rude

Dorisl:

You you haven't spent enough time around here to fully understand how preachy people can be and yes very rude. If you read a lot more of this stuff, you would find that there is way too much preaching and bashing poeple over the head and very little understanding or reading what the author has posted well, numerous times. It is as I said "very frustrating that people do not read all of the postings to get a really good understanding of what the author is saying." Kimmsr has been around longer than me and he understands that this also happens and that is why I wrote back to him specifically. And did you read all my postings and my remarks about my body failings and what needs to be done in my yard and what I'm trying to do? Did you read everything before you commented. The low side of this particular web site is that people do wave their power and great pronouncements over others and often are very hyerarchial. It is not right and there is a point when the scales finally tip and people get fed up. You can find many of these instances throughout these threads with people bashing others with their supposed knowledge. It becomes tiring, frustrating, and mostly others haven't read or absorbed what the writers are saying. Even the most relaxed, even tempered person can finally get fed up and I did. You would be surprised to see how many people get burned and burned out. You should easily have picked up on that if you had read my last post.

Hang in there Eurka! I understand about thinking outside the box and hey, if it works, why not? No, it's not the optimal solution but getting over that hump with whatever works so you can continue to garden without putting yourself in pain, well, go for it. I have also had to give up the cottage garden and my old ideas about what I want to plant, as my garden in Chicago would die a slow and painful death here. Raised beds, so your soil is above the hardpan, might help, it's not containers and it's slow, but you might like them, if made by lasagna method they get you great soil. The grass problem is foreign to me, and it's causing you to curse and moan, so what the heck. Please let us know how you're getting on. I hear Spring in the high desert is lovely!

Well I'm glad I'm not dealing with Bermuda grass! Sorry to hear that you have to work so hard to deal with this invasive plant. If the fabric softener works, that's great. I wonder if there are better products you could use as a surfactant? This may not be a long-term, eco-friendly solution, but it doesn't sound like you're planning to use it long-term. And it's ironic that this is a product that people use in vast quantities to soften clothing that then goes next to their bodies! And is flushed into our water treatment systems.

I was curious Eureka, what kind of meadow you are hoping to grow in the desert? I'm a big fan of native plants, btw.

Eureka,
How to get rid of Bermuda Grass the easy way.
Buy industrial strength (full strength) Round up at Home Depot. About 80.00 that covers alot of ground.
Wiat til the bermuda greens up and is actively growing.
SPray the Round up throughly on the GREEN bermuda grass and weeds.
Wait 2 weeks.
THen water for 2 weeks, use Miracle Grow on the "dead" bermuda grass and it will start to grow again.
As soon as it starts to get about 2 inches,
HIT it again with the ROund UP and spray everything that is green. Make sure you can see it's growing, (the stuff your spraying).
Wait 2 weeks.
Start watering it again, use Miracle Grow to fertilize and see if anything comes up green that is Bermuda.
I will make you a bet, it won't.
If it does, repeat the above again.
It will save you back breaking work, and I totally get your point on this, I live in SC, so we get bermuda grass too, please try this method.
If I'm right, you would have killed it by the end of June.
GOod Luck to you!

Oh my gosh, WOW, what a lovely bunch of sunbeams came into my life. Thank you batya, terrene,& butterfly4u. Thank you so much for your kind words. As you restated, fabric softener was never going to be my new soil treatment of choice. It was an experiment, a trial to see if I could make a task easier. I am a problem solver by nature. I am always looking for solutions to all kinds of things. I'm willing to as was said, think out of the box. I think I colored out of the lines also as a kid.

Maybe I need to start a new thread "Aleve for your Garden". I have made the effort to take two Aleve prior to heading outside to do any chores and if I've worked fairly hard, when I come in, I immediately get into a hot bath with epsom salts, soak for awhile till I'm sure my muscles are thoroughly warmed. At bedtime I take two more Aleve and find that in the morning I can move with no pain or very little. If I've worked extra hard, I do give myself a break the following day. I had just read an article about Jane Fonda keeping in shape but she does the the Aleve in the a.m. & p.m. maybe I could and should also give it a try. My finger joints don't hurt nearly as much and I think the swelling has gone down, my knees are better also, my low back is better also so that I don't walk hunched over while working outside. I really have paid a toll with my body, pushing too hard for too long but maybe I've found a bit of relief.

Batya, when this subdivision was first built 21 yrs ago, one of the first in the So CA High Desert, everyone poured up through the pass into this open area w/clean air, dazzling blue skies and AFFORDABLE housing. All of the new homes had huge green lawns in front. All these crazy So Calif people started planting their petunias, carnations, impatiens, azales, etc. We all poured water on everything like we did when we lived BELOW in LA, OC, & Riverside counties. Then we went through a summer, then a winter and everything was wiped out. Few of us have tried to learn about the soil. Some have kept their lawns but they are chemical lawns, they haven't seen any steer manure, or natural anything since they were planted. The water rates are going to bring everyone to their knees soon. My in-laws lived in Elgin,IL & had a lush acre w/forest, gorgeous.

Butterfly4u, I will give your RoundUp method a whirl. The thing about RUp is that once it hits the ground, it is nuetralized and is no longer effective so I'm a little confused but since you were willing to give me an understanding nod, I certainly can reciprocate and try it out. I hope to get back to Charleston & Savannah to walk the two cities thoroughly.

Terrene, your right, I could have tried the baby shampoo, dog shampoo, Castille soap, virtually anything that creates "slip". When I was thinking my idea through, I wanted the most bang for my buck and fabric softener struck me as truly concentrated with slip properties, although as I think about it, hair conditioner is right up their also. Wonder if I would have created such a stir if I had used hair conditioner, I bet not cuz it doesn't seem SO chemical and a whole lot of people use it daily. Yet chemically I bet fabric softener & hair conditioner are very close in chemical makeup. Hmmmm, interesting.

Oh I must share that as I was overturning the soil and pulling out the roots of bermuda, I found a nice long worm. I'm sure I heard him say something about "never smelling so good..."

My meadow idea, actually came from High Country Gardens catalog and as I look at their picture, I see they are calling it a Western Prairie. I have a horseshoe shape of turf area, it's not planted, just named. It is apprx 4000 sq ft. The back portion I'm thinking would be planted in HCG native grasses for the high desert and I'd mix in wild flower seed that is natural to the area also. The garden was designed by Dan Johnson as a short grass Cottonwood Garden displayed at Denver Botanic Gardens. It uses Legacy buffalo grass, and Hachita Blue Gramma grass. To that is added Mirablis, Oenothera, Callirhoe, Sporobolus. They also add Asclepias, Dales, Artemisia, & Schizachyrium. You can see it online at HCG's website. I still have the large planting areas or rooms as I call them and like you Batya, I know I must give up my flower filled garden idea but I have found at Annie's Annuals.com several flowers that will make it here. She does a great job of finding the species that are truly resiliant, not the big box flowers that don't stand a chance in our environment.

The good news is that I ran all over the backyard gathering twigs, branches, dried weeds, anything I could find and raked them altogether and have been putting them through my shredder, then spreading it in the planter beds. Wow, I put what seemed like a lot through the shredder and got kind of a pitiful pile but I'll keep at it and I do have a compost pile though due to the dryness, it takes a good amount of supervision. I also started looking for anything that could be used as cover for some of the more obnoxious weeds so they will die out. I will likely need to water here and there to loosen the soil to pull some weeds but I can sit on a garden stool to do that. I have a very bad habit of bending over at the waist which is the worst thing anyone can do. My knees are both injured from a car accident several years ago so I really hate to bend them and getting up isn't pretty. So kids, I am trying to be resourceful while the weather is cool. Our winters the last 2 years have been long, into May but this year I'm thinking we may see a warming much earlier. The jury is still out. So I need to be very busy while I can work outside. Is it just CA or have you all seen the dramatic rise in the cost of steer manure, compost and other amendments? Geez.

One question: I was reading about Soil Sulphur, the organic kind and thinking that it sure sounds like just the ticket for this very alkaline soil. Anyone ever used it? Gypsum is what is talked most about at this forum but it is very, very slow and takes forever to work. Why wouldn't I add either the sprayed on liquid or pellets. It is immediatley available to the soil, breaks it up, makes it much more difficult for weeds to set in and gives plants a fighting chance. I don't expect to get my soil to a nuetral ph but if I could lower the alkalinity some, it would make a big difference. I searched for sulphur & soil sulphur on this sight but nothing showed up. I suppose I could pose the question here and watch the fur fly or get beat into the ground again. Sometimes I don't understand why many people get upset if a quicker way is suggested to improve soil other than dropping leaves, twigs, compost (self made)only.

Again thank you so much for the kind words. I do appreciate it. Batya, I would love to hear about your moving to Israel from Chicago.

Mary

I've tried using soil sulfur, but with limited success. It would be especially difficult to have any effect on an area like a lawn. It's best used to target a couple of plants that need help. It will acidify a little bit if spread on the surface, but much of it will be lost to the atmosphere. The reason is that the way it works is there are bacteria in the soil that eat the sulfur and convert it to sulfur dioxide. The sulfur dioxide combines with water to become sulfurous acid and/or sulfuric acid. If it's on the surface, since sulfur dioxide is a gas, it may be lost to the atmosphere before it gets a chance to combine with water (especially in desert areas).

I like your idea of going with natives. I've been overseeding my lawn with native grasses (I should have killed it and started from scratch, but my idea was to blend it in). We average about an inch of rain a month from June through September. Most of my neighbors water every day. I water three times a summer.

The grasses I've used are western wheatgrass, streambank wheatgrass and some blue grama. Of those, the only one that would be a good choice for you would be the blue grama. The others are cool season grasses. One word of caution with the buffalo grass is that if you have allergies, you should avoid the seeded varieties. Buffalo grass has pollen that is really tough on people with allergies. But the varieties that are sold as sod and plugs don't put out pollen.

If you go with grasses that are native to desert areas, you won't need to worry about the alkalinity anyway. They're well adapted to alkaline soils (and often won't grow in areas where the soil isn't as alkaline).

Thank you BP for jumping in. I know you and kimmsr, David in San Antonio and a few others are knowledgable and I'm more than willing to learn from you.

So if I were to add ammonium sulfate; not sure I'm talking the same ingredient as soil sulfur but I think so; if I were to work it into the soil of the garden beds mainly was my thinking, am I basically going nowhere? We are located right smack in the So. wind corridor through the Cajon Pass, also the No. wind. We get bombarded with weed seed across the backyard and the wind swirls between the homes dropping even more. I'm not even sure what my goal is anymore, I think staying out of a wheel chair and findng some minor success in the yard. If I could find a native grass or one that will live here w/o a lot of work, I'd be satisfied. I also have the large planter areas that become weed infested every winter that need to be cleaned up every spring. It sounded as though getting the ph more balanced would help a lot. So am I outta luck here? Allergies are a huge issue for me w/my doc asking if I really needed to live here. I was so sick for 6 wks last yr due to the extreme pollen produced by the heavy rains. Thank you for mentioning the pollen issue.

People here water way too much or as many have chosen, they let both front & back yards go to hell. It makes the neighborhood special, ya know.

I do generally spray Alaskan fish fertilizer on a monthly basis, hoping to keep the soil bacteria happy. Not sure if it does what I'm hoping.

Ammonium sulfate is not the same thing as soil sulfur. It's a fertilizer. I've seen people claim that it lowers the pH in a lawn, but it's not going to have any noticeable effect on the pH in a desert lawn.

If you go with native grasses, you won't need to worry about pH. Most of the western native grasses do well in high pH soils.

Buffalo grass isn't native to the Mojave desert, but I think several varieties have been produced that are adapted to it. They're all are female only/plug varieties, so they should not be a problem for your allergies. The two most likely candidates I've found are UC Verde and Prestige. I'm not sure which would be the best choice for you. I'd ask someplace that carries both varieties.

Blue grama is native to your area and blue grama is often planted with buffalo grass.

If I were you, I'd get some buffalo grass plugs and some blue grama seed or plugs and go with a native lawn. If you water once a month or so, you should be able to keep it green (but it will go dormant if it gets below freezing). You won't need to worry about the soil pH and you can skip fertilizing completely or fertilize about 1/2 lb N per 1000 sq ft per year if you want (Bermuda likes 1 lb per month). Let it grow to about 4 inches or more.

These grasses thrive in conditions that most grasses and weeds die in, so you may be able to get a good lawn through benign neglect.

Unfortunately, my yard is 100% bermuda. It was laid down INTENTIONALLY by my home builder. Bermuda grass takes less water, so in drought stricken central Texas, is the preferred lawn grass by the "greenies" who think it will save water. After living with it for six years, let me tell you, it doesn't. Some of my neighbors have St. Augustine grass and my lawn turns exactly the same shade of brown that theirs does and at the same time.

One thing I learned about Bermuda grass is that it needs sun and will not grow in shade. With that in mind, it would appear that simply covering it would work, but that is not the case. Bermuda will come up through any type of covering, including news paper, plastic, cardboard, "Weed Stop" and yes, even concrete. Concrete will crack eventually or have seems where it was laid in sections. Bermuda can and will come through in these spots. The only way to successfully shade out Bermuda is to grow thick, permanent shrubs and trees, but this will prevent you from growing anything but thick shrubs and trees.

There is an exception to the shade rule. On the north side of my house, I noticed that the Bermuda would not grow because it's in nearly perpetual shade. For the first few years in my house that area was simply mud/dirt. No amount of coaxing would get the grass to grow there, so I thought I could put a bed there. I put up edging, laid down weed block and covered the area with mulch and planted some shade tolerant anuals. Two years later, I notice coming up through the mulch and weedblock, you guessed it, BERMUDA GRASS! It grows better there now, right on top of the mulch and weedblock than even the sunny parts of my yard.

So, the trick to GROW Bermuda grass is to try to stop it. The trick to make it not grow in a particular location is to TRY to grow it there.

So far, the only thing I've seen that will compete with Bermuda grass is St. Augustine. My next door neighbor's St. Augustine seems to be winning the battle in the yard separating our two houses.

The good part about St. Augustine is that it pulls pretty easy from a garden, provided it has not completely covered the area. The bad part about this is that once you remove the St. Augustine from an area, the Bermuda will come back as there is no longer any competition.

I've given up on completely removing the Bermuda from my gardens. Every year, I till it and pull out all the Bermuda I can from the freshly till earth. I dig down two feet around the borders and pull any roots coming in from the outside under the partition. I remove the bricks that make up my border and remove any grass that was growing between them. Then, during the summer, I have to pull up all the Bermuda I can find coming up at least once a week. Still, by the end of the summer, it is hard to tell a difference between the beds and the yard.

In other words, you will never get rid of Bermuda grass unless you can completely eradicate it from not just your own yard, but your neighbor's yards as well. Even if you manage to make it extinct in your yard, it will simply move in from a next door neighbor's yard of field. The way I deal with it is to gain all the ground I can during the winter when it is dormant and cede ground as slowly as possible during the summer. Repeat.

Eureka- I am 63 and having quite a few back/body issues likely from my years of digging too. I lived with my sister a few years back and she had the hard as a rock clay, the kind your pick ax bounces off of and your wrists complain! Seen my share of bermuda over the years too. I got a real chuckle from your earthworm that loved the smell! Fortunately, I am now in sandy soil which drains too fast but at least I can dig it! Im in Riverside County in an area called Sun City, now named Menifee just North of Temecula. Gets pretty hot here too. I read on the container post somebody said painting your black plastic pots white would help, dont know about that, I guess I'll try a few and see. Where are you?

Add lots of compost, manure and other organic matter with a small amount of sand. Coffee grounds will attract worms. The spagetti method is great for reducing weeds. Bermuda always beats St Augustine, except near trees. Short of digging and removing all of the top soil, it is almost impossible to eliminate. Even weed killer is only a temporary fix.

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I'm not too far removed from the Mojave myself. I'm downwind from you so go light on the beans. OK. Brutal territory with severe temperature swings in single digit relative humidity and that desiccated soil. I don't think a dedicated pipe from the Colorado would help.

I do battle with bermuda grass too. I hope you have gotten enough to get on top of it. I've had one victory in an isolated area walled in on all sides - I dug up all the runners and clumps by hand one rainy winter. Thrashed my hands good but I got that stuff out of there. It's where all the avocado leaves go now - take that bermuda. Now it's just a steady low level scrimmage out front beating back the invasions one by one.

I just try to get all the organic material in the ground as fast as I can as cheap as I can. I'm too lazy to work it in. I just mulch with whatever will work and repeat as it fades away. I'm not shy about dumping spent dishwashing water on the ground either. I'm hoping the soapy water will allow the moisture to penetrate the hardpan a little deeper so the roots from the poppies can penetrate a little deeper. I'm figuring if I keep enough poppies going for a long enough time those long deep running tap roots will turn things around in the long run.

Little by little a little later.
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You mentioned planting natives, if the plants are native to the soil, they shouldn't require much soil amendment? They should be adapted to that soil.

Sorry kids, didn't mean to ignore you last writers. We had some nice days a few weeks back so I was in the gardening spirit, then we've had storms move through. Though we didn't get hit very hard by any of the weather, we did get a lot more snow in the mtns which then drops our temps significantly. Plus with all the cloud cover, I just go into hybernation mode.

The last few days have been pleasant so have been pulling weeds out of the moistened soil. I was able to get some large sheets of cardboard and will put those down to supress the weeds. I don't see an answer to the weeds as even in the areas where landscape fabric is down with rocks on top, the wind swirls and blows so much dirt & weed seed that weeds grow on top of the fabric. Certainly the weeds and bermuda grow very, very well here. Listening to your stories of bermuda wars just makes me shake my head and wonder what are we doing to ourselves. We can be diligent but if our neighbors aren't, we're cooked. Of course what gardener doesn't love birdies but every spring brings a new weed and I have to believe that all the birds are bringing a whole lot of weed seed. In theory if I could get the soil Ph a bit more acidic, the number of weeds should be lessened. That would be nice. At one point I did consider letting the bermuda take over so if I decide to make that so, as per archerb, the bermuda should fail. I think I am going to try the RoundUp.

I found SoWestern native grass seed at the Outside Pride site. That's a neat site by the way. I can get the seed at a resonable price and put it down in the area designed for turf. They have all kinds of ornamental grass seeds & wildflower seeds for all areas of the US. I may consider throwing down a mix of ornamental grass in a few of the bigger planting areas, mixed with some wildflowers, that may be the best idea for my body and the yard also. I am becoming a fan of Scott Calhoun, a landscaper and expert on gardening in the SouthWest. His books are The Hot Garden & Hot Containers, & a few others. He is speaking at Anza-Borrego State Park on March 19 or 26 about the Hot Garden. He lives and works in AZ so is very realistic about what grows. Increasingly, I am feeling that my head needs to be in sw gardening, though they actually get more rain than we do. We get fooled from Nov - April thinking we can grow lots of stuff, then the heat hits. It is only then that I realize how harsh this environment truly is. I think I need to get further into Scott's books, go listen to him and maybe wrap my head around what he is saying. I will be sure to ask him about weeds & bermuda grass also. I wish all of you who are battling garden enemies, strong backs, weak bermuda, and some extra money for compost and amendments.