I'm in the same 'boat' as you are. We have sand, sand and more sand. Heck...we couldn't even grow grass until we had topsoil brought in...ughh!!! Assuming that your container soil is basically peat with some perlite and vermiculite, why not try layering that in the area that you will growing in next year with some newspapers, manure, leaves, compost...anything that will breakdown over the winter. In the gardening book, "Lasagna Gardening", this is precisely what the author does. She 'creates' good soil, by adding organics and then letting the whole pile just decompose. Come Spring, she just pokes holes in the now compacted pile and puts in the plants or seeds. As far as the bugs go, unless you have brutal winters that can kill them, they'll probably just overwinter and reappear next year. Sorry... I'm not an expert by any means, but your post reminded me of why I choose container gardening over in-ground gardening. Well...that and the fact that my entire property is on a slope ;-) I hope others will be along to help you. Donna H.

I think that the "empty big box store" part of idea is terrible for a number of reasons. One would be infrastructure problems in old or even newer dissimilar buildings. A fast-food restuarant or even a large retail store doesn't buy and raze the lot next door to put up a newer building just because they need more space - there are functional flaws in the older building design even though it was purpose built for that business at one time. It would be prohibitively expensive to repurpose these buildings (or it would have been done $$$.) Another reason would be zoning laws and concerns. For example - if I owned a furniture retail store next to a large grocery store that shut down I doubt that I would be much more upset over a livestock auction moving in next door than over a lettuce factory because I would want the traffic from a compatible business or barring that traffic at all. It would have been great if the article was about q business succeding because of their beliefs against long odds because local consumers wanted their product (this can be done). What I read the article as was that a government supported group in Vancouver *CANADA* (because IMO the writer wants to confuse Vancouver BC with Vancouver WA) has a "system" that they think has potential and then all of a sudden the article shifted with no transition to the *US* where it appears that not a leaf of lettuce has been grown. The phrases "might yield", "should finish" and "plans to grow" should send "investors" running, Well meaning people and government at different levels can do a lot of damage to progress by favoring one idea (or person) over another. Many should step aside and let things take their course. There seems to have been quite a bit of *REAL* success in CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) and farmer's markets recently.

This is a great post, dchall. I'd like to respond to a few points and get your thoughts. You said my problems are brought about by chemicals, but I'm not so sure. I only moved into this house two years ago, and this is my second summer with gardening the land. The lawn is a mess, which indicates it's been a long time since anyone used any kind of chemicals on it. The spot where I made the vegetable garden was virgin, although I did recently find out there used to be a large tree in the area that was dug out. I had it tilled fresh last spring, then planted. The only problems I had were birds (more on that in a minute) and the flea beetles. I did use one spray of Sevin on those beetles, and that took care of them. And it was a very light spray, but a spray nonetheless. (I'm learning, I'm learning!) If there were any other bugs, I never saw them, and I've always had the practice of walking through nearly every day looking for damage or problems. That's something my grandfather taught me. The birds, I didn't mention because I got a handle on them. Having always lived way out in the country/forest, I let my dogs and cats outside. So I've never known birds. (Other than bluejays...they were always around and very aggressive) Then I moved to town and now my pets aren't allowed outdoors. So I'm enjoying birds for the first time in my life. However, I have robins that sheared off my seedlings (the guy at the nursery said they do it to get nesting materials), but the other birds don't really bother my garden. I have a LOT of blackbirds, sparrows and grackles that I do not feed. And I feed my cardinal family, goldfinches and many, many hummingbirds. I also do a lot of flowers and flowering bushes and have never used a pesticide on flowers. (Never had to) Last year I strung a foil jungle throughout my garden to keep the birds (robins) out. This year i used vinyl netting, but next year I'll go back to the foil...it's easier in the long run. The point of that long ramble is that I have so many birds. Maybe they ate bugs, I don't know. And the other thing is that the only chemical used was last year's spray of Sevin (and that was only on a few eggplants, nothing else). Now, my neighbor does some flowers, and she might use pesticides. I did plant a lot of sunflowers, too. Partly just because I love them, but also did some in the veg. garden as companion plants for the cucumbers. (I don't think it worked, but I did get a nice crop of aphids on the sunflowers. I also got nice goldfinches which I've enjoyed) I need to back up...I did use chemical fertilizer (Miracle Grow), and some powdered coyote urine because I have a lot of wild rabbits. I'm only now learning about compost tea. Next point...I've decided NOT to use the horse manure, because these are all fancy racehorses (I live near a big racetrack) and Terri mentioned that they probably use steroids and things. So I'll have to settle for the poo of my neighbor's two pet rabbits. Back to the birds, I really considered getting a bat house, but I'm not sure it's legal in town. Plus would probably freak my neighbors all out. We have rabid bats sometimes. But I'd love to have some bats. (And even more, bat poop...it's supposed to be the best) But not a good idea around here. I'm very interested in the liquid seaweed you spray, or the milk. I've seen Paul James talk about using milk to control fungus as well. Would leafhoppers be considered sucking insects? I'm having trouble finding anything to use next year that takes care of them, and they did an enormous amount of damage to things this year. Neem oil is supposed to work, but to work, I would have had to sprayed my entire garden, including ground, with the Neem oil, and I was afraid it would harm too many beneficials. What are your thoughts on nematodes and releasing beneficials (mainly ladybugs)? Now to the tilling. Would you believe that last fall I did the no-till thing? My friend read about it somewhere, and I was all for it because I don't own a tiller and have to pay someone to come till. I already used newspapers as kind of a mulch to keep the weeds down, so I pulled everything up, put down layers of newspapers, topped it with a lot of leaves from the yard, then composted manure (that I bought at Wal Mart), then more leaves. What I did like about that is that I didn't have to really work the soil in the spring, or at least not like when you let it grow wild, and I had zero weeds. But it didn't decompose as much as i expected, and I kind of had a crispy crust I had to break through, then would come to a layer of undecomposed leaves. The crust was very much like the crust on a creme brulee, only made of crispy newspapers. I don't know if that's how it was supposed to be or not. Then I just kind of dug my rows out with a shovel and hand shovel, worked some composted manure into my rows, and planted. I've somewhat blamed my bug problem on that...is my logic wrong? My logic is that I sealed in all these bug eggs that might have been exposed and killed if I'd had tilled. I'm not opposed to not tilling, because I think the layered thing was easier than tilling, especially since I don't have a tiller and would have to borrow/rent one. I understand the logic of the anti till movement, and disturbing the soil and such, but maybe i want to disturb the bug eggs. And then there was the crispy crust....should I have just pulled all that up and tossed it? I didn't really know what to do in the spring. It was not what I expected. I expected a soil I could dig in, add some compost, work it in, then plant. But I had that crust and then a layer of leaves. (I used leaves because the instructions said either leaves or grass cuttings, and I have no grass cuttings in the fall because my lawn is not so good.) The books I was planning on getting: The Organic Gardener's Handbook of Natural Insect and Disease Control: A Complete Problem-Solving Guide to Keeping Your Garden and Yard Healthy Without Chemicals by Barbara Ellis and Great Garden Companions: A Companion-Planting System for a Beautiful, Chemical-Free Vegetable Garden by Sally Jean Cunningham

g'day daleblack, better late than never maybe hey? but here goes. first questions (as i have never used brunning gypsum), was the gypsum of a moist talcum powder type consistancy? second if yor soil is like it sounds why fight it? use raised beds for all gardens, if you wanted to you could do a raised bed first where the trees are going then plant the trees in to rasied bed, the main thing with trees is their feeder roots need to be well drained the tap root will pretty much find its own way. so for trees that need good feeder root drainage you need to plant them into a raised position that is you dig a slight hole into your original soil throw some good quality gypsum in (usually the best stuff is bought at a produce agency) then create a mound to what ever height you need over and above that to plant the trees into (might be anywher up to 1/2 the heith of the current root ball?), this is necessary with citrus in those heavy soils so you may get some clues from researching planting citrus trees. len Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page