Are you losing them during their first year? Are you using sprays or a chemical soil drench such as Bayer 3-in-1? Have you examined the roots of the dead roses to see what they'll tell you? Do you ever pot up your own-roots and grow them on to get a larger root system? I don't consider Bourbons fussy-- actually, we have more trouble with Hybrid Perpetuals down here. Sorry for all the questions but it really does help figure things out.

I tried many bourbons during my long time love affair with roses on MD.
The only negative I have to say about most of them is that they need to be sprayed to keep leave on.
Otherwise, I had great success with most of them. The exception is SDLM and its close relatives (SDLM Rouge, Captain Deuil de Graville, Souvenir de St Ann's). They have a LOT of dieback every winter. I tried SDLM own root (Chamblees) and two times grafted from Pickering. I love this rose, but it starts almost from zero cane length every spring for me.
Other bourbons I tried : MIP, Deuil de Dr REynaud, Mme de Sevigne, Mme d'Enfert, Maggy, Marquise Balbiano, Comice de Tarn-et-Garonne, they worked well for me. I gave away some of them because I try to minimize the number of roses that require sraying. But they all are/were healthy and vigorous.
One thing I noticed about long cane bourbons is that they require much more water and fertilizer (I use compost and alfalfa) then other roses to grow well and rebloom. Especially water is important for rebloom. They all try to take over the whole garden, but otherwise are really happy here.
The other thing remember about long cane bourbons is that each cane has very short life span. Probably two years. Basically every spring I prune away most of the canes that bloomed last year and keep the last year new canes.
If you keep older canes they will yellow and die, could it be that is what you see in your garden?
Olga

If Ogla has to spray to keep leaves, you can imagine what blackspot does to a bourbon in the south. I have a Maggie and she was beautiful for several year... with spray, but seems as she ages, she needs more and more attention...cutting out dead canes, spraying, etc. I am considering shovel pruning her this spring. I have a climbing SDLM. I will probably pamper it a little longer, but it is puny compared to a noisette.

For me and my growing climate, I won't buy any more bourbons because I need more carefree roses.

May just be the type of rose not liking local conditions. I would try SDLM in a pot just to make sure its not a soil/rodent problem. Its such an awesome rose. You could even bring it in an unheated garage for the hardest part of the winter if need be.

I would try planting them in the ground with no amendments.
don't give them anything until they start growing well and then maybe a little bloodmeal. I would opt for a gallon size or better over the small bands. I noticed sldm on hmf says it resents being pruned.

Bourbons don't do at all well in my part of Southern California. I have, I believe, one Bourbon left, but it's on the shovel list. They're worse here than HT's.

Jeri

I have four bourbons: Mme Dore, ZD, SDLM, & Louise Odier. They are all scraggly and suffer some from BS, but not horribly. I just put SDLM in as a band last fall, so it's hard to tell, except she has hardly grown at all. ZD is a graft, but the rest are own root. I had ZD and LO in the Southwest and they thrived!!! LO was one of the roses I thought I couldn't live without. So maybe too much clay? humidity? acid? Where do Bourbons grow well and what is different here?

Yes, they all seem to die within 2 months. I spray for BS only. No soil drench, no insecticide. I examined the roots of 1 SDLM still in its pot, they were pretty small. If they come as bands I repot, otherwize they go into the garden within a couple months. No problem with the questions.
Thanks.

Have you ever tried a grafted SDLM?

"Why do I keep killing my bourbons?" Because they deserve it? I have purged more bourbons than I now grow. I have two survivors, Mme Cornélissen and Souvenir de St. Anne's. They'd better be good or I'll hack them up in a heartbeat. Rust-ridden, blackspot where there is none, dieback, your name is Bourbon.

*** Because they deserve it? ***

Thank you, Cass, for a dose of reality... and a chuckle. Some plants just don't deserve to be in our gardens. It's simple and true. I need to remember that. If it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be.
Sherry

I planted 13 bourbons last spring. some seem to be a little slower getting established than others. but some are just monster growers. it seems the ones that wanted to bloom their first season remained more compact while the ones that didn't grew a lot. the smaller ones are mme. pierre oger,mip,mme. ernest calvat,and the ones that grew bigger and thicker canes variegata di bologna,gros choux hollande,charles lawson, and medium growers souvenir du president lincoln,honorine de brabant,deuil dr. reynaud. I haven't sprayed a thing and will say that they looked better than centifolias,moss roses, and some damasks, as a group. But they seem about a mixed group as the albas for me on getting established. some albas take off, and some have a hard time getting started. Great maiden's blush is a particular slow starter or dier.

Odd, all this. My Bourbons seem pretty unkillable and disease-proof after three years. Most are in a full-sun, windy, dry, heavy clay (alkaline), mild-winter environment: they don't get the water and nutrients they need to grow to monster dimensions OR to rebloom, but they look completely healthy and sturdy. I've never learned how to prune, and the fact is beginning to engage my attention; also rebloom depends on whether my roses get any rain in the late summer/early fall, and last year they didn't, so my roses were all essentially once-blooming. My husband tells me that Louise Odier, located in a different, cooler and moister area and pruned hard during the winter, had a spectacular summer flowering which I wasn't around to see. I don't know that this answers anybody's questions, but it shows how different roses can be in different environments.

Olga, thanks for the observations on cane life: I'll bear them in mind.

Melissa

Ceterum, No I never tried a grafted.

Berndoodle, What is your climate like?

To tell you the truth, as compared to others IÂve gotten in the mail, the size and vigor never impressed me. IÂve gotten them in late spring and late summer, maybe something in shipping triggers a disease and something else prevents recovery. IÂve received them as bands, bare root (this one looked ill with canker), and as potted. My best guess is it looks like a fungus like wilt, but no other rose type has these issues. Maybe my BDeN will grow again; else I may hope that a local nursery carries them some day.

Thanks for the answers so far. If anyone else has a opinion please holler.

Dennis, where are you in MD? I am in Rockville area. If you are somewhere around and want me to look at your bourbons, please let me know. I am not a consulting rosarian, but I do have experience with roses and bourbons too, so if it is a disease, I can try to identify it for you.
Olga

I got MIP, sent by mistake, as a band Fall 2006 and it went right into the ground -- I didn't know about repotting. Last summer, it had two blooms, no rebloom; it grew about 8' in each direction. The leaves looked beautiful. They have lasted through the winter with a little BS. We had an infamous drought last year with severe watering restrictions. It was still humid like normal.

thanks for the commentary...I'll be trying 4 bourbons in the spring. If they don't do well - thought I'd give them 3 years or so -(particularly the 2 by the fence), thought I might instead then try a White Lady Banks & just proclaim victory.

I don't think it is clay or humidity causing a problem. We have an abundance of both and Bourbons do well here and are favorites of mine. They do get some blackspot here, everything does, but they bloom, grow well, and are very happy in my garden.

Dennis, I think you should take Olga up on her offer!

Carol

I agree with the strategy of trying them grafted on Multiflora before giving up (at least on SDLM). I had a SDLM climbing on multiflora, and it grew pretty well. The other strategy is to move on, since the world is full of many roses just waiting to grow and reward you with their beauty. Visiting Olga may be the best bet, as it sounds like she has "been there, grown that" , and should have similar conditions.

Olga,

Cool, I'm in Laurel. IÂve been lurking and occasionally posting for years and noticed your postings. I didnÂt realize we were so close. I usually pay extra close attention to those in my climate.

SDLM really fit the bill for me due to color, bloom form, and size. Buttercup yellows and oranges donÂt appeal to me. I tolerate Fragrant Cloud because itÂs a vigorous bloom machine but I think sometimes it hurts my eyes, and pinks are pretty easy to find. IÂve been concentrating on whites, near whites, apricots and true or dark reds (red is my favorite).

Like you, IÂve also been trying to get away from spraying by spÂing my most BS prones. IÂve stopped bothering with winter protecting a long time ago. Another goal is to find less thorny ones. After getting rid of my prima donnas I think thorns are my next issue.

However, if I can find a healthy SDLM IÂm willing to give it some TLC for a couple of years. My wife and I have friends and relatives in Rockville and Germantown and I can get away with a few things that wonÂt survive their winter. My chinas and my Francis Dubreuil still have all of their leaves. But maybe thatÂs normal, this is my first year with them. Besides, maybe I can take advantage of global warming.

Thanks for the advice on the long caned roses. It makes sense, my BdeN didnÂt take off until I planted it in what happened to be a particularly well irrigated section.

Thanks for the offer. Right now there's nothing much to look at. With the exception of BDeN they all winter killed at least above ground. BDeN would have been fine if not for the rodents. However, if you have any cuttings of SDLM (or BDeN) you are willing to part with IÂd be glad to stop by or meet somewhere or here. IÂm kind of hoping BehnkeÂs would carry it, but they havenÂt. BehnkeÂs seems to be the best overall deal with their huge selection.

Dennis

Jbcarr,

As you can see, I did respond to Olga. But can you give me a source for the grafted version? Most of the time I donÂt see much difference in my yard between grafted and own root, but in this case there might be a difference.

As far as moving on, yeah IÂm ready at least as far as spending more money unless I can be convinced of better odds. BDeNeige may have been just a misfortune. Maybe, as Olga, pointed out, there is a difference between the short and long cane types.

It seems that Gruss an Aachen may be similar but IÂm not sure. Can anyone make a recommendation on it as compared to SDLM?

Thanks

Carol,
I agree, I donÂt think it is clay. My beds are raised and pretty well amended with organics. The amending is somewhat haphazard (depending on what I could get my hands onto) so different roses have slightly different amendments. In a couple cases they replaced reasonably healthy roses that I was tired of either because of their BS, thorns or color. One was next to a new china (Archduke Charles) that looks pretty healthy right now planted at the same time. This year I planted 1 tea, 3 chinaÂs and 2 HPÂs without loss. Even my Gen. Jacq. survived damage that broke off the top, but it managed to re-root itself, so hopefully with a little babying it can recover. Maybe IÂll wind up with 2.

Dennis, I don't have the ones you wanted cuttings of but I do have a huge bush of CdB and I should be able to send you cuttings of SdlM, Maggie, or several others if you want to try again. Sometimes you just have to yell uncle and give up but I think they should be doing better for you if they did okay in Olga's garden. These will get blackspot but they don't defoliate here and they keep growing and blooming. My climate and disease pressure is very similar to Olga's but I do tolerate a fair amount of blackspot as long as the rose continues to perform well. I'm a bit too warm to successfully grow all those beautiful Gallica's that Olga grows so well.

Carol

In my experience, Pickering has the best clone (for our area) of grafed SDLM. Multiflora roots really love our soil. I do recommend to get it grafted.
Dennis, I don't grow BDeN and never did. I and have zero experience with this rose. I think Lori, who is also in this area grows BDeN. Probably she will see this post.
You are welcome to come to see my roses in spring, or any other time.
Olga

Carol,

BTW, happy birthday. If you donÂt mind, IÂll take you up on cuttings of SDLM and CdB and BdN. SDLM and BdN are the priorities. I debated for years whether I would try BdN, so I wouldnÂt mind a second try. Now would be a good time of year. Part of my suspicion is they donÂt transport well or at least as well as the others. IÂve never done an exchange before. Should I just give you my email and you can pm me? I can re-imburse you for any expenses.

Olga,

Thanks for the invite and the source. Pickering is sold out of SDLM. Fields of the Woods is on my short list this year and so far IÂve only found Rogue Valley who has it in stock. They have SDLM but only as bands and IÂm not sure I want to spend $15.00-$20.00 on something that I havenÂt been successful with. If only BehnkeÂs would carry it, I could get an entire potted shrub for not much more. My job is on real shaky ground right now, so IÂm trying to restrain myself.

Dennis, I've already pruned my roses but can send you cuttings of SdlM and CdB in spring if that will work for you. I don't have BdN. I'll send you an email.

Carol

Dennis, send me an email and I will respond. Your email isn't listed on your page.

Carol

With my Louise Odier I've observed the short cane life Olga described. In fact, until someone on this forum mentioned it, I thought I was doing something wrong. I just couldn't figure out what it was. Many canes start dying back after a year. Fortunately, the rose is so vigorous that there is always a plentiful supply of replacement canes.

I think the first year is critical for young roses. Probably it is because they are busy establishing a strong root system. Often when I dig up a rose whose growth has disappointed me, I find a feeble root system. I think repotting bands in gallons is a good idea for most roses. You might even consider graduating them from gallons to larger pots yet before making the transition to planting in the ground, especially if you have been having problems.

There are a few roses that don't like life in a pot and need to be planted as soon as can be, but I've never heard that about any of the bourbons.

Rosefolly