milehighgirl, a colder climate like Z5 dwarfs standard root stock trees. We have a dozen 15 yr old apple trees Z5a from St. Lawrence on Antonovka and they are 12 - 15 tall, perfect size.

milehighgirl,
Stark has their interstem from ground level to about 18"-24". Their semi-dwarf graft is at ground level.
I don't know if this will help but here is a picture of my Stark trees on interstems.
{{gwi:91434}}

theaceofspades,
If you read St Lawrence's description your rootstock is doing what it is supposed to be doing. It's not your zone "dwarfing" the tree (which is semi-dwarf size, not dwarf).
I have a semi-dwarf from Stark that is also 15 years and 18'. I've known many apples around here that were much MUCH taller and they were sold as dwarfs.
Apples go a lot further north than zone 5 so that zone doesn't qualify as "colder" for them, in fact it's too warm for some apples.

myk1, your right, "``Standard'' means only that Antonovka is not a dwarfing rootstock; it will not limit the growth and thus the ultimate size of the tree, but rather will allow it to grow freely to its full size, about 12-15 feet." -St Lawrence Nursery. Bears have destroyed or tilted every apple tree. I wished we had used seedling root stock. Pear trees and plums are fine and we are planting a few dozen more. Bears have power, they tore off 1" thick board and batten to get into the garage. They are frequently around the cabin at night, but are tough to see during hunting season. milehighgirl, Getting back to interstem. I have a couple interstem cherry trees. What is that bulge from on the tree trunks in the photo. Why not go all the way and use standard root stock and interstem considering Colorado is prone to severe droughts.

"What is that bulge from on the tree trunks in the photo?"

I would like to know that too.

"Why not go all the way and use standard root stock and interstem considering Colorado is prone to severe droughts."

Yes, this is what I want, I just need to know how to go about it. Should I try to sprout seeds for myself, or will that take several more years? I've never bought rootstock, so I don't know how old/large it is usually.

I just need to know how to do this, and of course, which rootstock would be best for the interstem. I've head that Antonovka is very cold-hardy, so that is why I was interested in it's other characteristics.

Milehighgirl:

If one of your objectives is uniformity of trees and rootstocks, your current thinking seems to lead in the opposite direction. From some of your questions, I would conclude you are a novice grafter at best, and I would suggest that you may not be ready for the multi-stage procedure of constructing interstem grafted trees.

Simplify your life, at least the orchard portion of it, by planting all your trees on a proven semi-dwarf rootstock like M-7. Apple trees on M-7 are quite easy to control at 12 feet or less, especially when using the summer pruning technique, are well enough anchored to stand alone without support, and adequately precocious to bear. They also resist drought and are not prone to any particular diseases. I have an orchard full of these trees, and have never regretted my decision to standardize on M-7.

If you want even smaller trees than this, the length of the dwarfing interstem (such as M-9) that you install will directly affect the dwarfing effect on the tree. That is also true when grafting directly to a dwarfing rootstock -- the length of the stem you leave in place determines the degree of dwarfing. Nevertheless, I think you could be fiddling around trying to graft dwarfing interstems for several years with no guarantee of success. But planting grafted nursery trees with the scion varieties of your choice would give you fruit production in 3-4 years, with the size of harvest continuing to increase over the years.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

milehighgirl:

I basically agree with Don. Pick one or two rootstocks that give the size tree you need and forget about the interstem. Interstems haven't performed nearly as well as they should in theory. As a result they are not popular. It is hard to even buy one. You don't get all the good properties of each rootstock. You won't get the anchorage and drought tolerance of MM111 with the size of M9.

You can grow your own rootstock. But if it is patented that would likely be illegal.

What have you seen so far as to tree size? What rootstock has looked best? If I were putting in a new orchard I'd be interested in G11 and G30. But the old standards like M9, M26, MM111, and M7 are standards for good reason.

As to pruning, I spend about 10-30 minutes per tree per year. Far from being a chore I really enjoy my time spent pruning. You will to when you get more experience.

The Fruitnut

"What is that bulge from on the tree trunks in the photo."
"I would like to know that too."

That is the uppermost graft joint between the interstem and the tree.
I remember the Stark catalog saying that was normal for interstems.
Those trees are about 20 years old.

I understand that interstems also encourage suckering. I have definitely experienced that. So you might not want to go overly vigorous on the rootstock.

"You don't get all the good properties of each rootstock. You won't get the anchorage and drought tolerance of MM111 with the size of M9."

My trees are well anchored and at least the Cortland is happy to stay that size (5') with minimal pruning.
For being kept at half dwarf size the McIntosh is pretty well behaved too.

I would say a better way to put it is "you MAY not get...". But if you have a good "recipe" the results will be good.
If going in blind then Jellyman's reply is on the money, you would spend a lot of time trying to come up with recipes that would give the desired results.

Here is a list of the apples I have or have ordered:

Calville Blanc M7
Cox's Orange Pippin M111
Erwin Bauer G11
Esopus Spitzenburg M7
Harry Master's Jersey G16
Hidden Rose M7
Holiday MM111
Jonalicious G11
Macoun M7
Melrose M7
Newton Pippin M111
Northern Spy G30
Northern Spy MM111
NW Greening M7
Opalescent M7
Roxbury Russet M111
Scarlett Surprise M26
Sterns MM111
Suntan G16
Sweet Sixteen M7
Tolman Sweet MM111

Basically I need help figuring out how to plant them in my back yard to get the best crop. I also have peaches, pears, cherries, etc. All are in pots right now.

I was unable to acquire the trees I wanted on uniform rootstock so I took what I could get from whom I could get it. Now I regret being so impetuous! Of the ones I've listed, are there any real loosers that I should nix? I have tried to get apples that bloom late, but now I understand that that will not guarantee me a crop every year and that a variety of bloom times would be better.

After reading many posts, I now wish I had gotten these:

Karmije De Sonnaville
Viking
Honeycrisp
Hawkeye
Canada Reinette
Swiss Gourmet
Rein des Reinettes
Rubinette
Akane
Freiherr von Berlepsch

I have never grafted before, so yes, this would be an experiment using scion I would buy and that I have. It seems I am barking up the wrong tree....Any more advice??

Should I just get some M7 rootstock and try to make my own benchgrafts? Should I leave well enough alone?

Good Lord, Milehighgirl, you are getting in way over your head here. You are disregarding the fundamental Jellyman rule for the backyard orchardist, which is:

Never plant more than a half-dozen trees in any one spring.

There are good reasons for the Jellyman rule, especially for beginners. You have to learn how to prune, spray, and otherwise care for fruit trees. You must also have some kind of plan to deal with all the apples (or other fruit) that your trees will produce, if they produce. Have you explored this issue? Are you going to become a cidermaker? Do you have plans for freezing or canning a lot of peaches and cherries? Have you ever done such a thing?

If you have never grafted a tree, let's forget that for the moment. Stop looking at nursery websites and buying more trees. I have seen your name on these pages for at least a few months now, and find it incredible that you are taking on this very large task when you have read all the problems of other fruitgrowers. I would not call you impetuous, but would not disagree with your self-analysis.

Some of the varieties on your list are truly excellent; others may not work so well in your climate. The problem, is, you don't know which is which. And you are buying way, way too many trees for a beginner.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

jellyman,

I know that I am in way over my head. The deal is that I have wanted to do this for many years but I was taking care of my grandmother. Now that she is gone I am both able to time-wise, but have found this to be in some way cathartic....they say never do anything for a year after you loose someone, but I really never considered gardening to fall under that rule!

Sooo...I NEED HELP! I did not find this site until I had bought almost all of my trees. The only one I added afterward was Jonalicious!

I do have six sons, all of whom are in their teens or early 20's, so I don't think consumption will be a problem. It's killing me to keep them fed, and buying fruit is out of the question both cost-wise and taste-wise!

All of my trees are still in pots, so it won't be a problem to find another home for them if it seems they won't work for my climate.

I will take any advice I can get!

Thank you!

IMO you're thinking too much. You're reading what others are saying and letting it cloud your (and your nursery's) selection.
That is the exact reason I don't bother learning about rootstock and let those who know do it for me, that's what I pay them for. If I ever use a nursery that gives me a choice of rootstock I will tell them the size and resistances I want and let them make the choice.

I don't know why you think you need "uniform rootstock". Trees are not all equal in vigor, matching the vigor of the tree to the vigor of the rootstock is why I leave those decisions to the experienced nurserymen.
If they're good at their job when they say a tree will get roughly X amount of feet that is what it will do. They will do that because they match the vigor of the rootstock to the vigor of the tree.

If it's disease you're worried about, again, let the nurserymen do their job. Plus there's a lot ot be said for variety in fighting diseases, if something does hit your orchard you aren't likely to lose the whole thing.

As for your apple variety buyer's remorse, going by both of your lists you seem to be listening to those who are out for "oddities". I find it hard to believe you've tasted all those apples and are picking those as your own personal "must haves".
So I wouldn't worry about the remorse, your list of what you got has enough tried and true varieties and enough oddities that you will be fine. Some will work and some won't, when one won't you replace it with something else.
Also don't worry too much about what others say about varieties. My Arkansas Black produces great apples, people on the internet say it's cardboard. I found a webpage dedicated to bashing McIntosh (my favorite). I have Red Rome Beauty on order and some here say it's terrible (yet it's sold in stores), if it's bad I'll replace it, but I'll go by my tastes not someone else's.

If you want to learn grafting, what I would do is start off by adding scions from your second list to the trees from your first list.
But you certainly don't need to learn grafting or rootstock to enjoy growing fruit.
I've had horticulture classes in highschool and learned how to graft, had some fruit trees growing up and lived with a greenhouse business. But in my 20 years of growing my own fruit on trees that I was the boss of I've never grafted a fruit tree and I don't care to learn about rootstock. If I buy some land and set out to create a Upick business then I'll learn about rootstock.
Grafting is a necessity for business. You can do it as a hobby but you don't need to graft to enjoy the hobby of fruit trees.

I agree with with Jellyman about getting in over your head, but I'm thinking more from an unestablished tree watering standpoint. 21 trees, 7 days in a week means you have to completely water 3 trees each and every day, it's do'able, 8 hours of hose dribbling for each tree but it's constant.
My niece's well couldn't handle that, we figured about 3 trees a year is what they could handle.
You are setting yourself up to have all the trees go uncared for, training 21 trees will be a job and you might get sick of it by the time you're able to slack off and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

For the amount of apples you'll be getting, you're looking more at a roadside stand than feeding your sons (who will probably be feeding themselves by the time you're in full production).
I figured I'll be getting nearly 1 ton off my 7 trees in good years. I'm rather sick of apples after this boom year of just 3 trees (4 if you include my niece giving me all her apples).
If it wasn't for making a cider press most of the 4-6 bushels I got this year would've been given away.
My future production will be spread through the year, if all expected 40 bushels came at once I wouldn't be able to keep up with them or store them.

Don't get down on the negatives. While it is all good advice for the not yet committed, you are committed. You also have a passel of strapping young lads to help you. Just approach it from the points you need to know soon (initial and early pruning and spraying, how to water for a few years, orchard layout, etc.) and enjoy it. The greater work you have taken on may be just what you need in view of your loss. It would be for me. Just keep in the back of your mind that in several years some trees may not work out and you will want to deal with them then. Try cleft grafting to replace them with ones that do well and you like. If it turns out it is the rootstock, you have lost little else in each of these trees but some time and you have gained in experience and skills.

This thread is a crack-up.

Milehighgirl, I laughed when I read how many apples you ordered, laughed again at Don's reply, and again when I read you had 6 sons. When you do something, you go all out. I think that's fine, your enthusiasm for fruit production, should complement your fruitfulness in childbearing.

If your looking for rootstocks to go with the scions you already have, I would suggest Greenmantle nursery. I've bought rootstocks from Ram Fishman before, he has standard, MM111, and possibly some others available. If I were you, I'd probably not worry about doing interstems at this point. You'll have your hands plenty full, with all the care of you're new trees. Are you clear on your orchard layout? Spacing? If you want to try some apples, before you buy the trees, you can buy lots of different varieties at http://www.applesource.com/

The sampler packs are pricey, but cheaper than buying trees.
Mark

Just a note on applesource. Its great that they are available to try varieties.

I was happy to be pointed in there direction from this forum. I tried the sweet apple sampler because I thought I liked sweet apples.

The thing is, for the most part you can really only make judgements on the positive side. If you get an apple from them that tastes great, that is a good sign that you like that variety.

On the other hand, it is easy to get false negatives, especially if judging on just one tasting. I kind of knew that in the back of my head, but it was really driven home by the fact that the Fuji they sent me didn't taste that great and even the texture was subpar.

This isn't unique to them. This goes for any apple tasting. There are probably dozens of variables that affect how well a particular apple of a given variety turns out.

Very interesting discussion here. I'm missing one thing, though, MileHighGirl--you have these trees ordered with rootstocks, so with the interstems are you thinking of separating the graft from the rootstock, putting in an interstem, then regrafting?

Or are you looking at using these trees as a base that you can then cut scions from to graft onto new interstems and rootstocks to create additional trees in the future so you have multiple copies of each variety?

If the latter, then you are in great shape. Have a ball with the trees you are starting, get them established this coming year, then look towards beginning your grafting experiments the next year. Gives you time to learn what you are doing, get your technique practiced a bit, and get your feel for the work involved before getting bigger.

Beeone:

I don't think I would describe what Milehigh has in prospect as "having a ball". Keeping an orchard of any size is work, and lots of it. The more orchard you have, the more work, even though it may be satisfying and in some ways pleasant work.

I have grown kids too, and even pretty well grown grandkids. We do give away a lot of products to them -- fresh, frozen, canned or dried -- but when it comes to work in the orchard it's the old man's job because it is considered my project. I think that's the way it is in most families. The youngsters humor me, but they have their own fish to fry.

When I was younger and had a whole lot of energy, caring for the orchard didn't tax me much, but I can tell you that as the years go by it doesn't get easier.

I started by planting 3 apple trees in 1977, then continued to plant additional trees every year after that (when I was in the country) until stabilizing at 65 in about 2000. Now the acre is full, and if a new tree is planted, one has to go.

Milehighgirl has apparently begun by ordering in 21 trees that are either in pots or on the way. It is not clear to me why all the trees in hand were not planted immediately on receipt. These potted trees will obviously remain in their pots for the balance of the winter, so the real challenge now is to keep them alive until spring when they can be set out. That is going to be a big job in itself. Interstem grafting and other fiddling about is still a distant dream.

I think Milehigh realizes she has gotten a little ahead of the curve here, and I'm not suggesting she give up this wonderful hobby (it's my hobby too), or abandon the trees she already has or has ordered. Those trees have to be protected over the winter and planted as soon as the ground thaws. I do think, however, she should stop the ordering for now, and learn what is involved in caring for an orchard before planning an expansion. We learn something new every year in our orchards, and she has all of that ahead of her.

I have to say that if buying all these trees was a response to stress, it was sure a lot better than buying a closet full of shoes.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

milehighgirl, Take it easy 21 apple trees is the right number to start off with and you still have four months to learn and prepare. There are a lot of good suggestions on this board and some not so good. Live and learn. I planted over 40 trees and berries this year and wished I had planted more the year before. I guess I have about 80 varieties and friends and family eat em before they are ripe. Wildlife takes their pick and the fallen ones. It's all fun and enjoyment. I'll post some pictures soon on bare root scaffold branch training.

mile,

just thought i'd express some encouragement for u.

lots of good advice here. not getting too far over your head from jellyman is pretty sage. when i jumped in the fruit bidness my plan was for 50 the 1st year,100 next,100 next and come hither 50 more to round it out. thank goodness i'm 2 seasons in and only have approx. 50. ordering,planting and fencing was the easy part. then came mulch ( lotta mulch ) i think i was wise to use the longer lasting types to fulfill their needs immediately and am working on stable mulch and such ( better ) more at my leisure. then theres that water thing for establishment that myk1 mentioned. for me at least i started planting where watering will be the easiest. good move, at the end of a watering day ( i have to hump it ) those 5 gallon buckets get heavy. i 1st realized that when i untied my shoes i didn't have to bend over and my long sleeves shirts were now short sleeved.

am learning the pruning,pest id,spraying practices and such as i go. i'm sure this will get harder as the trees mature and time moves on.

this coming year i will maybe go approx.25 more and then slow to a crawl (if any) on the fruit. time off from new trees to give me a reality check on the care of those i have in. see how far over my head i'm in !

i'll utilize the next few years to focus on nut and reforestation trees. after planting they won't have maintenance like fruit. at the end of that period my new fruit should be established and i'll re-assess future plantings at that point.

figure out your final goal, keep assessing,keep learning and keep good records would be my amateurish advice.

i imagine i have more time to fool with my trees than u, but i know you'll handle it and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

be fruitful,

wildlifeman

Ouch, having to carry water to 50 trees would become work on the first 2 buckets. I had to carry water for horses when I was much younger. I'm sure I'd like it even less now.
I'd get a water tank and a truck.

myk1,

rest assured i haven't had to water all my trees in 1day, 2 usually 3. mother nature helped me out big time last year.

i don't use a truck or 4 wheeler due to the fact i don't want "new" roads. i have 1 road i utilize to the top of the mt. a few times when it's been hot i have motored my water closer to the few trees where it's advantageous.

wildlifeman

I think basically I need to make it known that, after too many years of neglect, I had tried to revive my grandmothers grapes and plums, and now am doing the same for apples and a pear on a rental that I just inherited. This was a lot of work, even with the help of my sons. So, I donÂt want them to be in the same position in 20, 30, 40 years from now, whenever I become unable to keep it up. This is why I wanted to plant good rootstocks with dwarf trees, i.e.: interstem. I donÂt want to plant MM.111 trees and expect to be able to summer prune every year. If M.7 is good enough then maybe I will try to make my own trees using scion that I already have.

I had hoped to figure out which apples worked best and weed out the loosers. I actually did try to order the various apples I have from Treemendus Fruit, but the process was horrible. In May I sent them a list of the trees I have and asked if they had those apples. They would not give me a quote unless I bought a catalog, then it took over a month to get a catalog, then when I emailed a list of the apples I wanted they gave me a basic quote per pound, then I told them the order I wanted was about $200.00, and then they said that I was correct, it was about $200.00, and thatÂs the last I heard. I finally gave up trying to order apples from them! My last inquiry was October 28th. Over 10 emails and I still never got an actual quote! I decided I didnÂt want to send them my credit card number. I may try Apple Source next year.

The trees are in pots because we were unable to clear the space due to my dh needing shoulder surgery. So far they are doing fine. IÂm watching them closely. The buds still look healthy and live, all except the cherry from Starks that barely grew at all last year.

So far no one yet has explained to me how to make an interstem. I have researched it and canÂt find any details, either in books or on the web. Can anyone share these details so that just in case I want to do this I can, or maybe someone else reading these posts can have the details?

Graft the interstem on the rootstock. When it's tall enough cut it off and graft the desired variety on the interstem.

The problem is you don't have a recipe to follow so you don't know what rootstock goes with what interstem goes with what variety or how long to make the interstem.

milehighgirl, interstem are not done on apple because there are plenty of dwarfing roostocks. I have 2 cherry trees with interstem from Millers nursery. There aren't dwarf cherry roostocks available. Nurseries need to be licensed to use the patented dwarfing cherry rootstocks. Millers didn't say what interstem they used but it may be Northstar a genetic dwarf cherry. The 'dwarfing' stem constricts the size that the tree can grow, hence those bulges in the apple photos. In our orchard upstate NY Z5 we winter cage our trees till they grow tall, otherwise deer will eat them to the trunk. Your yard needs to be fenced in for full dwarf or interstem apples. Ordering apples to taste doesn't make a lot of sense. Apple coloring, size, flavor, texture all vary depending on how it was grown, what climate and how long in storage. Some apples grow well in warm climates, some apples need cool nights to ripen to peak flavor. You should go by trees grown nearby or in similar climates as yours to judge an apple. 'Kansasfruiter', another gal here planting an orchard rented a bobcat with auger under $200 for the weekend. Potted trees can't dry out and need to be protected or better yet planted to protect from cold injury to the roots.

theaceofspades,
Interstems are used on apples and they are popular in some areas. I hope my new dwarfs are on interstems.
They may not be popular with some nurseries because they double the amount of labor but not the amount of income. Naturally those businesses will tell you what they do is best.

The reason apples are done on interstems is because the anchoring qualities of those dwarfing rootstocks are not that great and they may not be the best when it comes to drought.
I searched and could not find any .edu or anything from NC140 that said there were all the drawbacks mentioned in this thread other than some combinations do not produce the desired results.
I certainly have not seen any undesirable results.

Here is a 2004 list of apple rootstocks and at the bottom there are interstem combos. They wouldn't have those if they weren't used. http://www.nc140.org/2004/domotorootstock.pdf

"Ordering apples to taste doesn't make a lot of sense."

I am aware that apples taste different depending on where they are grown. Northern Spy and Cox's Orange Pippin seem to be two that can either be awful or wonderful.

If I had just simply asked how to make an interstem without giving any reason, would I have gotten any information?

I'd still like to know how to make an interstem. Maybe no one here knows how?

myk1, a 50 ct bundle of 3/8 interstem wood is $40. The standard root stock and interstem on your scion costs under $5 per tree. Bench graft the scion, interstem and root stock. I've seen no interstem apples for Internet tree orders. Probably incompatibility issues. Where are you buying your interstem trees from.

"I'd still like to know how to make an interstem. Maybe no one here knows how?"
I told you.

"I've seen no interstem apples for Internet tree orders. Probably incompatibility issues. Where are you buying your interstem trees from."

Looks to me like Edible Forest Nursery, Adams County Nursery, Wafler Nursery and Moser Fruit Tree Sales all have interstem apples. That's just a few from a quick search.
Cummins has a future rootstock listed as being one that would need an interstem.
As far as I know Starks still uses interstems.
The link you gave has apple interstem wood.
How are you figuring there aren't any interstem apples or there are compatibility issues when NC140 doesn't say that and they give common rootstock/interstem pairings?

I have read where some varieties don't produce well with certain interstems but it's certainly not all of them.

Milehigh,

For clarity, here are your original questions, with answers:

"Does one piece the rootstock, interstem, and scion at the same time or is it better to do one step each year?"

Generally interstems are done over two seasons, one step each year.

"How much interstem does one use?"

Don answered your question. The more interstem, the more dwarfing affect. I'm thinking around 3" is the standard amount of interstem.

"How low do you place the interestem?"

Start the interstem where you would a normal graft, about 3 inches above the soil line.

"Can I sprout my own rootstocks?"

Yes.

"How old/large is a purchased rootstock?"

I've only purchased rootstocks from Greenmantle, but theirs were pretty small, maybe 2.5' overall, including the root. Obviously these rootstocks were only one season old.

"Does Antonovka have an effect to cause more early bloom?"

Don't know.

"I have never seen fireblight here, but I've heard that it can be a problem."

Yes fireblight is everywhere, but much worse in warm humid climates. In my not be much of a problem in dry parts of Colorado. Most standard rootstocks are delicious seedlings, either red, or golden. They are fireblight resistant, but won't help you much with fireblight sensitive cultivars on top of them.

Applesource is located in southern IL Zone 5, latitude 40, so their apples should taste reasonably similar to where you are. Your summers are a bit cooler, and soil probably different, but their apples should give you a good baseline. At least like Murky said, positives will probably be a good choice to plant, but their apples may give you some false negatives that you may want to try again before you completely rule them out.

this is a very interesting thread. My advice is to first try various rootstocks and settle on the one that works best in your soil. After several years I discovered that all the dwarfing rootstocks lacked vigor on my sandy loam. I've settled for MM111 for apples, Myro29c for plums and citation for apricots.

milehighgirl, don't let anyone discourage you. We each have our own way to do things. I jump in with both feet and I learn as I go like you.

Learn how to graft and you will save lots of money. Try different varieties before deciding what to keep. You can always graft over. Oh and 20 apple trees does mean a tonn of apples that even 20 people won't be able to eat.

Milehighgirl,
From one Kansas girl to a neighbor, good luck. It seems that we are in the same chapter of this hobby. From personal experience, the bobcat was the only way to go. Regardless that I have lots of help, the bobcat was $135 delivered and picked up and did the job better and faster than I could have. I am busy and don't check the forum as much as I would like, but look forward to hearing of your progress. Good Luck!

kansasfruiter,

Please explain to me the technique you used for getting rid of unwanted trees. I still have 3 locust, an ash, and a hackberry to get of. I paid someone to come and top the trees, but the trunks still stand at about 20 feet, looking down on me with disdain. My neighbor came over and said my yard looked like Isengard after the battle with the trees.

My son just graduated with a degree in Chemical Engineering. I was jokingly thinking maybe about explosives!!!

My other neighbor, who has enjoyed the shade my trees provided, cursed us and said he hoped we killed ourselves! Fortunately he was gone camping the day we had arranged to top the trees.

So, how does one extricate the roots of large shade trees and prepare the soil for fruit trees? Truly, explosives are sounding pretty good!

"So, how does one extricate the roots of large shade trees and prepare the soil for fruit trees? Truly, explosives are sounding pretty good!"

I would've had the person who topped the tree take it down to a stump.

Then heavy machinery makes the job a lot easier but there's alway axes, mauls, shovels and elbow grease ... lots and lots of elbow grease.

Otherwise once you get it to a stump AND keep it from growing back from the stump time will eventually take care of it and there are products out there that speed up that time.

Milehigh:

You need a son with a degree in chainsaw engineering. That's how you take down trees that have been topped. If done just right, and there is adequate space, you can drop them right where you want them and cut them up for firewood. As myk suggests, you can have the stumps and roots removed with a backhoe (expensive), or drill the stumps, put in stump destroyer, and wait for nature to take its course. This could require some patience. Of course I don't know how large your outgoing shade trees are, or the space restrictions you may have to deal with them.

I would recommend against using explosives, especially nuclear, unless you have a very special permit. Undesirable side effects can result.

I also hope you are not getting ahead of yourself by ordering in fruit trees to occupy the space of the shade trees until you have figured out how to get rid of the previous occupants and have the soil all prepared.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

OK, I loved this thread! Milehigh reminds me of me! Where there is a will, there is a way!

Tears sprang to my eyes with the negative comments, and joy with the supportive ones.

Milehigh, there is a great link and method that no one has mentioned here. You can plant 3 trees in one hole. This will dwarf the trees. With pruning, you can keep the trees as low as you wish.

I wish you luck and lots of apple pies!!
Suzi

Well, I reserved 25 interstem Bud 9/MM.111 interstems from Boyer. Then yesterday I stumbled on a post about bark inversion. Has anyone tried this successfully with young fruit trees?

I have wondered about the 4-in-a-hole method but I questioned whether the trees on the north side would be always in the shade. Is the shading an issue?

Check out Dave Wilson's site about 4 tree planting. Seems to me just a great way to market more trees, but the north tree would not be shaded by others as all 4 would be growing as one. There is no point in planting apples or pears this way as they are so easy to graft. It would just complicate pruning.

Milehigh, I think part of your therapy is just interacting with other fruit growers- you are asking way too many questions and complicating the whole process to fill your mind with distraction. Wish it was spring so you could just go out and do the work that will gradually educate as we cannot. I expect it might be more affective therapy as well, at least if you're anything like me. Hard physical work is the only thing that keeps me borderline sane.

Anyone contemplating interstem grafting before they've even planted or cared for a tree is not entirely rational- but that's OK, rationality is over rated.

If you want to leave a legacy of fruit trees that don't require a ton of work, I suggest pears. Less pruning by far than apples and often no spray required.

harvestman, You hit the nail on the head. Although I am not entirely a newbie; I've just put it on hold while I raised a family (and took care of my grandmother). Now I actually have time to do something I have wanted to do for the last 20 years. I feel I have years to make up for and I am in too much of a hurry to taste my own fruit. I did get about 3 mulberries last year and a few alpine strawberries, and my grapes did make a few wonderful clusters, which was a total shock to me. My Suntan apple did bloom but it was too late for any pollen to be had. I tried to get some pollen from my neighbors Golden Delicious, who's petals were about to fall. Unbeknownst to me Suntan is a triploid, so that didn't work out as well as I had hoped.

I actually found G.11 rootstock, so I will try to duplicate the trees I have on MM.111 and see how it goes. I just started reading The Grafters Handbook. If only there were dwarfing rootstocks for peaches.

In the meantime, my peppers are sprouting wonderfully!

Milehigh:

Peppers are not what we usually speak of here, but if you have not grown them from seed before, it may be a little early to have them sprouting in your zone 5 climate.

Peppers require full-spectrum light during their indoor growth, and can become leggy and unhealthy without it. I use fluorescent shop lights close to the emerging peppers even though mine are in a greenhouse. Just the greenhouse glass is enough to reduce the UV part of the spectrum so that the plants grow slowly and very leggy. Pepper plants should be stocky and strong, and their transition from indoor to outdoor plants should be seamless without a check in their growth.

Here in Northern Virginia about the earliest I want to set peppers outdoors is mid-May, and that can vary a little from year to year. If I set them out before the minimum night temperatures are around 60 degrees, they just shiver, their growth is checked, and they never really produce well.

That's why I start my pepper seedlings in about the last week of March to the first week of April. I wouldn't start them any earlier than that in your cooler, zone 5 climate.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

It depends how big you're willing to get peppers indoors. I like to start mine in mid to late Feb and by the time I put them out in late May they already have small peppers on them. I have an unheated green house that I put them in in early April after starting them by a southern window.

When they go into the ground they are stout and ready to take off. Adds about a month to my harvest.

Actually this isn't a bad time to start planting zone 5 hot pepper seeds, it's only a little early for green peppers. But hot peppers don't sprout fast so they'd be coming up by the end of the month.
I don't think it does that much good for getting earlier fruit but if you are willing to care for the plants you can have some nice ones by the time the weather is ready.
Before I figured out the work, room and added cost of bigger pots, more potting medium and more electricity wasn't worth the bonus I used to always start my peppers about now.

Tomatoes are the ones that get out of control if started this early.

I'm extremely late if I'm still have anything not sprouted inside by the end of March and hoping I'll have more than seed leaves by the time I put them out.

Well, we have deviated to peppers. Peppers are perennials, can live to over 40 years, and can be bonsai'd, and live forever producing inside.

I have a 3 year old jalepeno pepper that produces year round even in the winter. It's about 3.5 feet tall now and full of peppers.

Lots of good info in the garden web pepper forum, but here is a link you may enjoy.