Will, if black spot is an issue for you, FORGET Conrad F. Meyer. It is too close to its Rugosa ancestor. You can't spray it with fungicide as chemicals on the foliage will cause them to yellow and fall off anyway. Where leaf issues aren't problems and you need the cold hardiness Meyer possesses, it can be spectacular, but not for hot areas, particularly with rust or black spot issues. Even Austin's Meyer hybrids are prone to the fungal issues, though they can be sprayed without the defoliation issues encountered with C.F. Meyer.

If you're interested in cutting the flowers for use in the house, forget the OGRs. Their blooms don't last long when cut compared to Mr. Lincoln and most other HTs. They also tend to develop into much larger plants with significantly less bloom than you'll receive from modern varieties. Don't get me wrong, I do love OGRs and began growing many more of them than moderns initially. It was because so many of them were not suitable to my hot area that I limited which of them I grew and focused more on modern varieties which hadn't the size, repeat flowering and foliage issues so many of the OGRs did.

Buy them from whomever you wish, but look at the types of roses Antique Rose Emporium offers. Those tend to be the kinds which have proven themselves in Texas "weather" with little to no human intervention. You'll notice very little which is all that 'cold hardy', because those also tend to require more winter chill to really perform as expected. You CAN often grow roses and other plants which do much better with more cold, but they will NEVER do as well nor be as beautiful as they are where they get what they need. I limped many along for years until I saw them REALLY happy because they got the cold hours they needed to really flower and grow well. Once you've seen them well grown, just keeping them going where they aren't happy will never again satisfy. Kim

Hi Will: Since you have blackspot pressure I'll send you a list of 390 roses (lots of OGR's) from BurlingtonRoses in Southern California. I put in extra info. in that list regarding heat tolerant & disease resistant & scent info. for my older 8 sisters and neighbors. I have lots of sisters across the country.

If you are not set-up for private email in GardenWeb, you can e-mail BurlingtonRoses@aol.com for their 390 mostly OGRs' and 160 mini-roses. The shipping of own-root bands are cheap. I got 12 roses (7 big ones and 5 minis) from Burlington to my Chicagoland for $133 (including shipping).

To set up for private email in GardenWeb:

Click on your own name in this forum, it pops up "Welcome to wmpeebles's member page". At the bottom of this page is a green bar. Click on the "Member Pages" tab in front of "Contact Us". It pops up "Member Pages", click on "edit your personal info.". It pops up another screen, scroll down to the bottom, and click the box "Allow other users to send you email via Gardenweb form".

For legal reasons BurlingtonRoses don't want to send info. regarding disease resistant (in case people sue them for blackspot, like someone demanding money back from Austin since their rose blackspot). But I can send you all the info. about disease-resistant for OGRs' if you are set up to receive e-mail.

Roseseek's suggestion of looking at the Antique Emporium's website is a good one. I grow a couple of their Pioneer Series roses that they bred here in Texas, and I like the ones I grow. Although I do not grow it, Thomas Affleck is a fragrant one that seems to have received a number of good reviews. ARE describes the color as "intensely cerise pink", and says the flowers are fragrant and the plant is thornless.

Maggie is a found rose, believed to be a bourbon, that can grow well in Texas. It was found at a farm in Louisiana by William Welch, and it seems to do well in many parts of the country. It is very fragrant, and I would describe the color as a dark cerise. Even though it does get some black spot, many people (including myself) grow it no spray.

Since you are in Texas, you may want to look at the list of Earth Kind roses, as the selection process was originally started in Texas growing conditions. I am not sure these fit the criteria of dark and very fragrant that you are looking for though. Here is the web address:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/earthkind/roses/

Here is a link that might be useful: Thomas Affleck at HMF

I would avoid all Bourbons except for Souvenir de la Malmaison and all of her sports. I've tried and failed with Bourbons in Texas. Maggie is also classified as a bourbon, and will bloom all season but does not have a pretty growth habit in my garden. Octopus everywhere!
My favorite dark colored rose is Cramoisi Superieur. I've tried growing all types of roses and I've found that Chinas, Teas, and Noisettes grow the best in my area. (Of course I was told that back in 2005 when I planted my first rose garden but I was stubborn and had to learn the hard way. Over the years, almost all of the others gave croaked. )

Forgot to add- I've tried Mr Lincoln quite a few times but it always dies. The diseases weaken roses to where they can't even make it through a mild winter like this one was.
I'm a big fan of fragrance and repeat, but I tend to buy white, apricot, and yellow roses instead of dark colors. I haven't tried any of the others on your list.

The issue is quite a bit more involved than simple legal issues, Strawberryhill. They've identified about five populations or "types", strains of black spot in the US. Several times that number world wide. The rose with the greatest resistance to all of our types is Knock Out, and even it isn't completely healthy everywhere against all strains.

What Burling finds resistant in her nursery actually provides very little realistic information to you in yours. You have different strains or types of the disease, in completely different climates and growing conditions. Once there is a real way to physically test each rose against each type of black spot to get a comparative rating, the best you can hope for are reports from those who garden as close to you as possible, with as nearly identical conditions as you have.

Few roses are as resistant to all strains as they are to one or two. High resistance to a particular strain is termed "vertical resistance". Baby Love is one such type. It remains very healthy until either the strain mutates, learns how to circumvent the resistance or some other condition changes, opening the door for infection. Then, the plant completely collapses under the attack. It's felt that this great resistance to particular strains is due to a particular gene.

Greater levels of resistance to multiple strains or types is called "horizontal resistance". This resistance type is felt to be due to a combination of multiple genes, each providing a higher level of resistance to differing types or strains of the fungi. Even if one type breaks through and infects the plant, the others help retain higher levels of resistance, preventing as complete an outbreak or as severe an infection as occurs when the vertical resistance is overcome.

You've witnessed the difference right where you live. Some roses seem to resist, only to completely defoliate and suffer from infection. Others, particularly Knock Out, may become infected, but don't seem to suffer as severely, retaining much more of their foliage unaffected, or less severely affected, longer and better than those which collapse once infected.

Even the Earth Kind ratings and varieties aren't easily translatable to other climates. What performs sufficiently to be healthy and productive against those strains in those conditions, are reported elsewhere to not be resistant or perform well. All of those ratings are highly climate and condition specific.

Breeders' goals are to identify the sources of horizontal resistance then breed to amplify them in their creations. Until we can set up the ability to test against all types of the fungi in one place, no real mass progress can be realized, but it IS in the works, and people ARE breeding with Knock Out in hopes of passing on this greater resistance to other types and colors of roses.

So, no nursery can really give you more information than how the rose performs in their specific climate and conditions, and, perhaps, reports from others whose conditions and climate may, or may not, resemble yours. Anyone assuring you the rose is "resistant" without actual testing in YOUR climate and type of conditions, without qualifying it by "in MY climate/conditions", isn't doing you a favor. That unqualified advice can't be relied upon and is a disservice. Knowing Burling, that's probably the largest part of her reasons. She values the integrity of her reputation and advice, and doesn't want to tarnish that integrity. Kim

Cweathersby, you are right about Maggie's growth habit. Some people use her as a climber, but I just cut the long branches back pretty far after they bloom.

Cramoisi Superieur is also one of my favorites. Mine from ARE has a lovely fragrance.

I'm not in your zone, but thought I'd mention that I grow Mme Isaac Pereire. It is indeed very fragrant. The vibrant blooms are wonderful.

It's a sturdy rose in my garden setting. Repeat bloom is very good. It gets blackspot in my organic garden, but this does not diminish vigor or hardiness.

Baronne Prevost does not repeat as well as Mme Isaac Pereire.

Wow, I think I might have almost made a mistake by buying roses unsuitable for my climate. Thanks to all who have replied! I appreciate it. However, I have looked at ARE several times and noticed Conrad Ferdinand Meyer is in their inventory. Perhaps this rose grows well in Texas?

I remember in my first year of growing roses I had no idea what was wrong with one of my rose bushes. It looked like it was dying because all the leaves were turning yellow and falling off all the time. I discovered it was black spot and so I sprayed the plant and it grew really well the following year. But it was also a rose that grew well in the Texas climate. I will definitely take a better look at AREs inventory to find a rose more suitable for my purposes.

roseseek, that is very interesting information on the different strains of black spot.

-Will

Good for you Will! It looked to me as if you were about to do that and the best way I could help you see that potential was to get you to look at a successful nursery in your area, offering roses suitable to your climate. Even that won't guaranty perfection, but why not stack the deck in your favor from the start, maximize your successes and minimize the potential for sprays? Win-win! Kim

I live in Blackspot Central in southern Louisiana, and I absolutely love the Bourbons and collect every one I can. Yes, I see BS from time to time in my no-spray garden, but they've never come close to defoliating completely and the reward of the gorgeous, fragrant blooms makes them worth growing for me. I second the recommendation of Maggie, too. She and Cramoisi Superieur are spectacular performers for me, very healthy and they pumped out blooms like crazy during our weeks of 100-plus heat last summer. You might also pay attention to any roses in the teas, chinas, and noisette classes described as "found" roses. They're roses that were discovered growing in old abandoned homesteads, cemeteries, etc. and flourishing without any kind of care. Their original identities are unknown, but they've proven their toughness. Kind of survival of the fittest!

FWIW, I've found the folks at ARE to be experienced, and helpful. I think if you ask them about disease issues for a specific rose, they'll give you a straight answer.

O'course, TX is like CA, in that the climate varies widely from one area to another -- so you will also want to tell theme WHERE in TX they are. And if you're close enough to them to visit the store, you'll get some hints just by seeing what grows well for them. Beside that, it's just a wonderful place to visit. I've not visited the San Antonio place, but the Brenham garden is well worth a visit.

Jeri

Some of my favorite roses for fragrance and repeat: Tamora, Francis Dubruil, Mary Magdalene, Jude the Obscure, Cramoisi Superior, Mme Lombard, Jean Bach Sisley, and B. H. d. Snoy. When I see blooms on these I stop and smell them every time, and that can't be said about most of my other roses. I grow them all no spray, and they all live through it.

cweathersby, thanks for your list. You've mentioned several of my favourite roses for frangrance, and several that I am unfamiliar with so will go and explore. Fragrance is key for me, one of my greatest joys is walking through the garden and smelling fragrant rose after fragrant rose.
cheers,
robert

I don't grow either but I understand that Mme. Isaac Pereire and Souvenir du President Lincoln are in fact the same rose. I called and asked an owner of a very well known nursery if they were in fact the same. She never came right out and admitted it since she sells both but the things she said about the two led me to believe that she at least suspects they are the same or at least very similar. I don't know for sure, but I'm just saying...

Hi fellow Texan! I'm in the Dallas area, which I suppose isn't quite as humid as where you are, but here's a list of my most fragrant roses (several spelled incorrectly, sorry):

Marie Pavie (has to be deadheaded, does best if sprayed, but its scent carries across the whole yard)
Jaques Cartier (didn't like last summer, but generally my best bloomer)
Paul Neyron (best if sprayed, but doesn't need it. Beautiful blooms)
Gideon Lincecum (powdery mildew- has to be sprayed)
Bayse's Blueberry (Doesn't fade in color and blooms in 100 degree heat, no diseases)
Souvenier de St. Anne (a little blackspotty, but smells great and blooms a lot. I don't have to spray, but it would look better if I did.)
S. de Malmaison (great bloomer, a little blackspotty. I don't spray her and she's fine)
Sweetpea (a little blackspotty, nothing bad, reblooms quickly if deadheaded)
Louise Odier (First bloomer of spring, no problems, great rose- but nearly died last summer.)
New Dawn (healthy and vigorous-no spray needed)
Albertine (healthy and vigorous-no spray needed, but only blooms once)
Thomas Affleck (Holds its color well, smells good, has to be sprayed)
Maggie (Smells great, no diseases. Highly recomended)

And my favorite: Madame Isaac. This rose gets blackspot, doesn't bloom a lot, and isn't really vigorous in my climate. But those few blooms are the best thing I've ever smelled and worth growing just for that. Seriously- nothing smells better. It's worth the hassle.

I grew Conrad for a while, but didn't find the scent that great, plus it's really thorny.

Hope this helps & I would love to hear what does well for you. This year, I'm shovel pruning troublesome roses and haven't decided what to replace them with.

I echo Jeri's suggestion that after you do a little research (and perhaps remove most of those bourbons from your list...), email your updated list to RVR and/or ARE and ask them for advice.

I remember emailing EuroDesert with specific questions, and I'm sure I have of RVR and ARE, too, they're always helpful and sometimes drastically sway my choice to something mo bettah for my climate. :)

it's great to ask here, too of course. I know Jeri and roseseek and others here have saved me from some probably doomed to be lack-luster or unhealthy choices. Just because it says it blooms a lot on a website and doesn't list any particular aversions to things doesn't mean it'll do well in my climate. :)

most of my babies are doing pretty well (I think? haha...) but I don't have any on your list other than Baronne Prevost , which I like well enough so far, it's been healthy and grew a fair amount. I got it from ARE actually cause I like getting their 2 gallons if possible. :) It hasn't had a lot of bloom though, so we'll see how it does this year on whether it grows into "wowing" me or not. :)

Souvenir de Pierre Notting is a great rose, but little to no fragrance.

Souv. de Pierre Notting was one of the few Tea roses with NO disease of any kind, two blocks from the surf in Pacific Palisades. It should be pretty good for coastal, SoCal situations where it's as damp as Northern California but with more heat. Kim

Will, Madame Isaac does well in my yard in the Dallas area. No problems. Lou