I suggest you look at Veilchenblau and Violette. Both are purple, Violette being the darker of the two.

Ingrid -- Before you get into De la Grifferaie, or any of these roses with a Multiflora background,
consider your pH.
Multiflora-based roses don't tolerate alkaline conditions at all well.
I know that Anemone will grow and bloom in my area, as will Cherokee Rose -- but check to see which of these
need some winter chill, to bloom decently.
Much of SOUTHERN California either has too high a pH for these roses, or too little winter chill.

Jeri

I'm very interested to hear the responses to this thread Ingrid.

I know of very few people growing ramblers here in Southern California, but I fell hard for "Albéric Barbier" (what I'd call a lemon-kissed white) so I acquired two bands last spring. So far magnificently healthy foliage (rather glossy) and the blooms are beautiful.

But do I know that "Albéric Barbier" will thrive here? I do not. Its one of those, "I'm gonna have to find out for myself" roses.

I do know a rosarian who lives nearby, with an awe inspiring rose garden, and perhaps the rose that steals the show for me every Spring is "François Juranville" (medium to light pink). The canes on this rambler are vey lax and trainable. He has them running straight up (pretty bare) about 18 ft and then trained along a roof-line where the rose blooms in such abundance that it is really one of the highlights of Spring for me.

Curious to hear what others have to say.

Peace, Bill

Ingrid,
Here are my two cents of experience.
I secretly grow some once-bloomers.
The ones that after 4 years in the ground are doing great are:
I have Belle of Portugal, is huge easily 20 feet, going up an unknown tree. Belle Blanche is not quite as vigorous, but doing well too. They mildly suffer of mildew during some cloudy springs. Now I am trying Lafollette.
Francois Juranville (sp?) a show stopper every spring. ItÂs thornless and very easy to train but a giant is going up another unknown tree. Some times it reblooms in fall. No disease so far.
I have also Felicite et Perpetue another beauty, I think one of my favorite. Another big rose easily 12-15 feet long going up the same tree with Francois. No disease so far.
Madame Sancy de Parabere is a very graceful shrub. I got it because the name sound good but is doing quite well so far. The only problem is some rust in the winter on senile leaves.
Fortune Double Yellow is excellent in the back of my property were it can grow freely and every spring I canÂt see the leaves because of the amount of flowers.
{{gwi:230465}}
Only 2 were so awful to become compost: Thousand beauties and Tea Rambler. They got every disease known to mankind.
I hope this can help.
Simona

Bill, I've grown Alberic Barbier in the past (after admiring it at a rose garden in the SF area) and it had no disease problems whatsoever. Mine, however, was on a slope in decomposed granite and didn't get enough water. Even so, the leaves stayed glossy and green; it just didn't bloom very well. Francois Juranaville is also a wichurana, I believe, and these roses are all known for their pliable, trainable canes. Graham Stuart Thomas considered them to be the most magnificent of the climbing roses group in overall beauty. Perhaps I should try Paul Transom, another member of this group. I've heard that Veilchenblau invariably mildews and therefore hadn't considered it. I really hope that more people in our area will be able to offer some informed advice.

Ingrid

Simona, thanks so much. You've given me much food for thought and I appreciate the stupendous picture.

Warm regards,

Ingrid

Remember -- You're dealing with several different families of roses, and their needs are very different. There aren't many things lovelier, though, that Fortune's Double Yellow in full bloom.

Jeri

I don't know if these are even worth considering, but here goes..

Mme. Gregoire Staechelin
Fortune's Double Yellow
Adelaide d'Orleans

Robert

Simone, that is incredibly beautiful! Oh, to have more land.

Ingrid, I am trying a couple of once bloomers too. I have Alychemist sitting soaking in the garage ready to be planted. I decided that I won't know how they will do in my garden until I try them for myself. I hope you find one that will work for you. There are so many beautiful ones to choose from.

Carol

I am in the process of removing 5 purple multiflora ramblers that were consistently chlorotic and mildewed on my back fence (not an airflow problem). However one of them, Violette, once did very well in another part of my garden so I am going to try it again there. Violette was my favorite of the group with its dramatic color and long bloom period. The most vigorous was Rose Marie Viaud. The least vigorous was Donau!

Rosefolly

I'm leaning toward Anemone which is hardy to zone 7 with a tea rose and Cherokee rose as parents, and therefore might be good for my climate. It has a beautiful, delicate look I really like and may even rebloom.

I already have several tea roses that are similar in color to Fortune's Double Yellow and really have nothing that looks at all like Anemone. I'd love to hear from anyone who has grown Anemone before. It's not a rose that's been mentioned much, and I wonder why because it's such a pretty rose.

Ingrid

Ingrid, we found old plants of Ramona and Anemone (we think) on an old fence out at Rancho Camulos. They'd had no care for easily 50 years, and some were lost, but others were hanging in.
Cherokee is a wonder at the Stagecoach Inn, in Newbury Park, where it does two flushes of bloom.

Jeri

Ingrid, I've heard Fortuniana is very common in California, so maybe I shouldn't bother mentioning it. I have a baby planted at the base of an oak tree. Pretty double white flowers, violet fragrance, disease-free and almost thornless - and big. Seems like I read recently it might even repeat some.
Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: R. Fortuniana

Sherry, I had Fortuniana when I lived in Sacramento, although it was sold as R. banksia. It was quite pretty but not exactly what I'm looking for now. Off the subject, I was very amazed to look out the window one morning and see what I thought was a basketball hanging in the rose. It turned out to be a large swarm of bees!

Jeri, it sounds as though Anemone and Ramona are very tough roses. That's very encouraging to hear.

Ingrid

Asta von Parpart reblooms well even for me in central Sweden. I can hardly imagine how wonderful it would be for you.

My Fortuniana came from an old cemetery, where it doubtless came in as rootstock.
It had a couple of blooms on it when collected in mid-November, after a waterless summer, and it's a continuous bloomer here.
It's growing at the bottom of the hillside, where it can get as big as it wants to, and 'Cymbaline' is using it as a trellis.
Very strange, but lovely, effect.

Jeri

Ingrid, I suggest you check any prospects on HMF. Go to the garden tab and check the preference to show gardens in all countries. Growers in southern latitudes combined with high USDA zones (9b - 11) don't grow very hardy roses that well. Hybrids derived from evergreen species will do better for you because they can handle the heat, the sun, and the 12 month growing season.

No doubt this suggestion will be met with half a dozen posts about hardy roses grown in Florida. There are many exceptions to any general rule, and so exceptions are what you're looking for.

In the interest of full disclosure, Anemone has foliage problems here. Laevigata itself is bombproof but either is programmed to bloom heavily in alternate years or is prone to years of minimal bloom. With a rose as big as an airporter, I would like to see some flowers every year.

Even though I do not live in a warm climate I would like to suggest you look into:

A somewhat repeating rambler: Perennial blue

I also really like the repeating white musk rambler: Guirlande D'Amour.

Here is a link that might be useful: Perenial blue

***Hybrids derived from evergreen species will do better for you because they can handle the heat, the sun, and the 12 month growing season***

Cass, where would R. wichurana fall as an "evergreen" species?

My assumption(perhaps mistaken)was it is "evergreen" and so a rambler such as Alberic Barbier with Wichurana on one side and Tea on the other, ought not be an unreasonable selection in Southern California.

But am I missing something?

Bill

Bill, I think the further you diverge from "evergreen," the more
problematical the rose may be here in La La Land.
I've not in fact grown Alberic Barbier.
If I was going to guess, tho, I'd say that wuth roses whose genetic map
is a mix of warm-winter and cold-winter heredities, some will do better than others.
You might just have to try them.
Some roses do well here that shouldn't.
Others -- don't.

THAT SAID, If I want to have assured success, I'll select roses with more "evergreen"
background than not. (Say, the Tea-Noisettes.)

Jeri

***THAT SAID, If I want to have assured success, I'll select roses with more "evergreen"
background than not. (Say, the Tea-Noisettes.)***

Good news there...as I have dozens of Tea-Noisettes building up strength.

But I'm still perplexed a bit. If Alberic Barbier is a Tea on one side ans Wichurana on the other, where are the cold winter genetics coming from? Is it from the Wichurana side?

The Wichurana influenced "repeat" bloombers I have all do well (Sombreuil, Awakening and Penny Lane).

So I'm confused.

Bill

At this point my head is spinning just a bit. Niels, Perennial Blue is stunning but only available in Europe. One of its parents is Veilchenblau so I'm not sure it would do well here but I'd try it anyway just to see since I love it. Rosefolly, thanks for the info about Violette, it's one I'd like to try because of the color and you mentioned a long blooming period. Anemone worries me now because Cass mentioned leaf problems and that's something I don't need. I had no idea that Fortuniana rebloomed, I had always assumed it was a spring bloomer only. Live and learn. I'm going to do a lot more investigating before I make a final decision and would certainly appreciate further comments. Marianne I'm glad to hear from someone who has grown Asta vor Parpart. Whether it would like my climate is something I'll have to find out about.

Thank you everyone, I'm grateful that so many people responded to my query.

Ingrid

The answer, Bill, is I DON'T KNOW.

I haven't grown it here. Maybe someone has, but I lack the information.
The only real wichurana-based climber I grow is 'Sombreuil.' And it is good here, tho not as good as the Tea Noisettes.
OTOH, I've seen New Dawn grown in Thousand Oaks, and it was a mildewy mess.
So, you, my dear, get to experiment, and share the results with us.

Jeri

I'm thinking that in your climate you might want some Tea-Noisettes. They're all so beautiful. Manchester Guardian Angel reblooms(well they all do)is so easy to grow. Elie Beauvillain, Madame Berard, are two beauties. Dr. Rouges a climbing Tea would probably never be out of bloom for you.
I know you would love Violette(rambler). I'm growing mine next to Parade.
{{gwi:225334}}

And Manchester Guardian Angel is TRES vigorous!

Jeri

Bill and Ingrid: Don't be confused. This is not precise science. Just on the face of it, hybrid wichurana crossed with a tea rose is derived (in part) from an evergreen rose. Hybrids are deceptive: some are a lot more like one parent than the other. Many of the finest hybrid wichuranas are R. wichurana x Tea. They can be fantastically beautiful, though very large plants. They are definitely climbers, trailers, and require support. The species itself is adapted just fine to my climate: it goes dormant and looses its leaves completely. What it does in SoCal I do not know. Many hybrid wichs are reported to mildew in Central and SoCal. That isn't much of a problem up here.

My point is simple: if you are willing to experiment, this data will increase your odds of success. If you don't want to experiment or to risk throwing away your money on a rose that has less chance of success, it might be helpful to factor into your calculations.

Here is a link that might be useful: R. wich. x Tea - Miss Helyett

I had no idea that Fortuniana rebloomed,

*** It can and will, where the climate is mild.
Like the banksiaes, it will stop blooming when the weather gets hot
So, if the weather doesn't get hot, they go on blooming.

I once saw an ARS judge DQ a spray of R. banksiae lutea at a rose show in September, in a coastal location.
He said the entry could not be R. banksiae lutea, because it was blooming in the Fall.
All he had to do was walk around outside, to see MANY specimens of Yellow Lady Banks in bloom!

Jeri

*** The species [R. wichurana] itself is adapted just fine to my climate: it goes dormant and looses its leaves completely***

Thanks for sharing your deep knowledge Cass. Just to be absolutely clear, does this mean R. wichurana is not an evergreen species?

Bill (who doesn't intentionally mean to appear simple-minded)

Bill, I apologize if I overstated the leaf loss on Rosa wichurana based on what I've seen locally. I know the species is often described as semi-evergreen. In comparison to what? To rugosas and European species, but not in comparison to other Asian tropical evergreen species. Think of R. bracteata and laevigata which are all green all winter.

No doubt there's variation within the species (now called Rosa luciae) and also variation depending on how it's grown. In nature it creeps along the ground, mounding on top of itself to about 18 inches deep, spreading to form an insulating mat. Lift those canes up off the ground to train a climber, and I know that hybrid wichuranas drop their leaves when exposed to winter temps of 20 degrees F.

The thicket of the species that I saw in February at a local botanical garden (Zone 9b-8a) was growing in mounds. It had lost plenty of its little leaves, enough to show all the canes. Large patches of wichurana-derived rootstocks around the county lose their leaves for a period of time every winter.

I know that hybrid wichuranas drop their leaves when exposed to winter temps of 20 degrees F.

*** Which, of course, NEVER happens in Southern California -- except perhaps at the mountain resorts, or maybe the deep desert.
So, for us, they are what I might call semi-evergreen?
The leaves do definitely get "scruffy," but even in this year's very high winds, then never really disappear.

Jeri

***No doubt there's variation within the species (now called Rosa luciae) and also variation depending on how it's grown. In nature it creeps along the ground, mounding on top of itself to about 18 inches deep, spreading to form an insulating mat. Lift those canes up off the ground to train a climber, and I know that hybrid wichuranas drop their leaves when exposed to winter temps of 20 degrees F.***

Cass, thanks for clearing that up. Otherwise I think I'd have erred in going from thinking Rosa luciae (Rosa wichurana) was "evergreen" to thinking it was "deciduous", when a more transitional "semi-evergreen" classification is most accurate.

Couple questions.

Do you know if in its natural range the species grew in areas where it went fully dormant? Or was it limited to areas where it would have only partial leaf loss (expect in unusual cold snaps).

Second question, is what happens to "evergreen"roses when temps hit 20f? Would they too not lose their leaves (or simply perish)? So how do we distinguish between say "semi-evergreen" and "evergreen" classifications?

Sorry to be pesky, but I find I learn an awful lot when questioning you. And I value you teaching greatly.

Bill

One of my favorite ramblers----"Albertine"
{{gwi:205633}}

Albertine bud--

{{gwi:230466}}

Lovely fragrance

Florence

Adding my two cents' worth:

Plants aren't all that frequently confined to just one category when it comes to the evergreen, semi-evergreen or deciduous question. Often you'll find a range of behaviors listed for a given plant depending on the conditions - you'll see a plant described as "semi-evergreen to deciduous" or "evergreen to semi-evergreen" or even all three, with appropriate qualification. Rosa luciae is native to a wide enough geographic range to experience temperatures much below 20 degrees Fahrenheit in the coldest, to experiencing no winter cold at all in the warmest parts of its range. It's native to China (where it tends to be coastal), the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea.

Beautiful photos of Albertine Florence.

Thanks for sharing!

Bill

Bill, Stefan addressed your question about Rosa luciae.

Evergreen species like R. clinophylla and R. laevigata do not lose their leaves here at 20â. Very little happens, they don't color up, and they don't drop off. I did see some frizzled tips this winter on R. clinophylla which was still blooming in December when temps dropped to 18â. I don't know what happens when they meet their critical temperature, or even what that temperature is. Paul Barden said his 4 or 6 foot plant of R. clinophylla froze to the ground at 10 degrees, if I remember right, and grew back. I don't know what it takes to kill a R. laevigata back to the ground or whether it ever drops its leaves in response to cold temperatures before it dies.

Bill, I can't tell you how to distinguish between evergreen and semi-evergreen because it depends where you're standing. I described roses that absolutely refuse to drop their leaves in my garden. Others thin their foliage in winter. Others, like hybrid rugosas, color up and throw down their leaves in October regardless of temperatures. I can't tell you any more.

Just to add a bit of confusion to the discussion about the "evergreens". :oP
The only real "evergreen" Rose I have in my garden is 'Cooper's Burmese'(don't loose one leaf, and leaves are always green, without changing to red or maroon green), which is related to R. laevigata. R. laevigata herself is reported to be not hardy in England, so I suspect she don't withstand persistant temperatures lower than -6/8 °C in a location without summer heat (this also is important, I think, not only winter temperatures).
Both Banksiae (Rosa banksiae in all her forms, R. fortuneana) and Bracteatae (R. bracteata, 'Mermaid', 'Maria Leonida') aren't evergreen, at all in my Zone 9b/10a garden (min. winter temperatures never below 0 °C, approx. 4-5 °C). Banksias are almost deciduous, Bracteatas "semi-evergreen" (they always loose the oldest half of their leaves).

Wichurana and Sempervirens Hybrids are the most beautiful ramblers here. Multifloras cannot compete.
These rambling beauties are almost evergreen. 'Félicité et Pérpétue', 'Spectabilis' are avergreen in my garden.
Wichuranas obviousely are, too. But if some are at their best when it's hot, others dislike to flower under my strong sun.

'Albéric Barbier' is the widely cultivated rambling rose in Sardinia. It's so easy to root cuttings, so vigorous and strong (don't care to be completely neglect), that almost every white rose you can see here climbing on a wall or fence, is the lovely Albéric. And it's absolutely evergreen here.

'Albértine' is pretty, pretty, pretty. Just a little thick and stiff grower than Albéric. The flowers are gorgeous in their lovely shades of light pink and salmon, and the fragrance very good indeed.

'Paul Transon'/'Paul Noel' bloom late in may, and suffer under the hot sun. It's better in a semi-shaded are, where the flowers are bigger and long-lived.

'François Juranville' is amazingly beautiful in full flower, and almost thornless. The little, shiny leaves looks pretty good.

'Breeze Hill'is another must to have. Flowers are bigger than any other Wichurana, in an unusual shade of white/buff . The plant is buchy and prickly, good as a freestanding bush.

There are many other beautiful Wichuranas, Ingrid. What about 'Alexandre Tremouillet', 'La Perle', 'May Queen', 'Mme Alice Garnier', 'Léontine Gervais'.... ;o)?

Ciao!
Maurizio

Are Paul Transon and Paul Noel the same rose? I've got them both.

Robert

Stefan, thank you for the information on Rosa luciae.

Maurizio, interesting that 'Alberic Barbier' is so common in Sardinia. I don't think I've ever seen it growing here (outside of one major botanical garden).

Whenever I see the threads on your garden I marvel and am inspired. So beautiful. And I can't help but think the climates in Sardinia and Southern California must be rather similar. So you give me hope.

P.S. I don't know if you can get a hold of a cultivar of Salvia Clevelandii known as 'Winifred Gillman', but it is a most beautiful (and fragrant) native California sage that I know you would love.

Cheers,

Bill