I'm in SoCal, so I don't know RRD -- However, in this photo, I see only normal healthy growth.

Because I'd like to learn more about RRD, can you tell me what here was thought to signify RRD?

Jeri Jennings
Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal

No, that's not RRD.

Paul

Thanks, Jeri, that's what I thought. Something is amiss at the moment at HMF, but I will see if I can encourage her to join in this conversation.

My take on the subject was "no way", so I don't feel I can field her side of the discussion. However, I also didn't want to ignore the possibility if I was the only person who wasn't seeing healthy new canes in that picture.

Yeah !!!!
Thanks Jeri.
Thanks Paul.

I really really did not think so, but....now I'm confident.

Susan

Hi Jeri,

Mind reader that I am, here's my guess as to what Susan is responding to:

"I happened to see your canes/thorns picture of White Maman Cochet, Cl. I know that Rose Rosette Disease isn't common in California, and it might well be completely normal behavior for that variety (that I don't have), but my Cornelia did the same thing in the fall enroute to coming down with a full-blown case of RRD the following spring. I'd suggest that you just start paying attention to details if you haven't already: www.rosegeek.com."

and

"Susan, I was potentially bearing bad news. You are totally forgiven if you didn't want to hear it; it's a perfectly normal reaction. I did go to the Antique Roses Emporium and noticed that they say that their Mamam Cochet (the regular pink one) has few thorns, and I felt a little thud in my stomach for you, but I hope I'm totally wrong here.

"If you've lived for long with this rose, you might pay attention to your own instincts. That is, has it rather suddenly _changed_? My Cornelia did, though I'd only lived with it for about six months at that point, and I was a relative newbie to roses than. Still, I have a good bit of gardening experience generally, and my gut told me to worry; I almost took the rose out at the point that, in retrospect, I should have taken it out. If only I had, it might have saved me the grief of eventually losing 46 more roses (no kidding). The thing that dissuaded me: the poo-poohs of those far more experienced than I was who said the rose wasn't (yet) showing (the full-blown kind of) RRD symptoms. By the time it did show unmistakeable symptoms, it was too late, and the disease had spread to another rose in a pot... which my husband managed to take and sit right in the middle of all the new rose arrivals in another section of the yard, from which it spread like wildfire over several months' time.

"Other early symptoms I found (from different varieties): unusually wonderfully strong scent on a rose that previously had reasonably good and sometimes almost no scent, luscious-looking abundant growth that was so thick you had trouble finding the cane, black thorns that don't necessarily remain black (by the time Cornelia was showing the full-blown symptoms, the black thorns were no longer black), leaves and leaflets that aren't symmetrical, a propensity to come out with Rose Mosaic Virus symptoms when previously the rose was healthy enough to skip showing the RMV symptoms, stipules that are longer on certain canes than on others, clusters of areas of orange-colored canes and stems, flower petal crowding and lack of symmetry on previously symmetrical flowers, and finally, red thorns on a rose that normally has no red thorns.

"I hope you _don't_ have this problem, Susan, but I personally suspect that you do, and I'm just thinking that it might turn out better if you're on the lookout now. The best person to address RRD questions to is Ann Peck (email address), the author of the rosegeek.com website."

To be clear here: Jeri, I'm not _certain_ of anything. How could I be? I've never seen this rose and I've never grown this variety. But I personally suspect that yes or no on RRD might well be on the way to becoming more clear, by, say, April. I do hope the luck there is hugely better than my own with my Cornellia showing two of these same fall symptoms. Actually, I didn't see the third symptom Susan's rose appears to already have--red thorns--until the following spring.

It's important to note that my experience is with Cornelia, not a Mamam Cochet of any version, and someone who knows about thorniness on Mamam Cochet could offer the best insight. I'm figuring that the low-thorns note at Antique Rose Emporium isn't a good sign, but perhaps the clone Susan has might have come from thornier stock than ARE's? The most important point is probably the length of Susan's own experience with the rose and what she knows as normal for that particular clone over the years. No one else has knowledge of that; Susan is the expert on her own rose.

It's hard to see the black thorns in my poorly angled and lit picture (look upper middle-right near some yellowed leaflets), but at Garden Web you can see three pictures of my Cornelia at the point I first began to notice a sudden change (symptom 1) from a low-thorned to a high-thorned rose, and was wondering about (symptom 2) the black thorns that were suddenly visible only on a few canes. (The picture of a growth tip wasn't a worry to me, but in referring others to the condition of my rose at that point, I thought I ought to post a picture of a growth tip too.)

Best wishes,
Mary

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornelia with the very earliest of RRD symptoms

OK. I understand.

But on Tea Roses like this, there is a vast difference between Old Growth and New Growth, and I realize that this can fool 'ya.

One of the great beauties of the old Tea Roses is their lovely mahogany new growth, with translucent red prickles. I really love that.

The difference is sufficiently startling, though, that people have reportedly thought it abnormal, and removed it! YIKES!
Some modern HTs share this characteristic.

By contrast, OLD Tea Growth can look dull and grey, while still carrying vigorous growth to new canes branching from it. I have sometimes cut that sort of cane off -- only to lose half of the promising new growth. Bummer.

Jeri Jennings
Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal,
Heritage Roses Group

For what it's worth (& that may be exactly nothing) in this past year my Fragrant Cloud (hybrid tea) has had one or two new stems that seemed unusually thorny, and yet I'm sure none of the other symptoms of RRD are presenting themselves (nor am I aware that RRD has yet appeared in the Boston area, even as I assume it will appear someday). Consequently I suspect my Fragrant Cloud is probably ill with some other virus I'm not familiar with. (Over the past five or six years that I've had this rose I've seen plenty of leafhoppers on this rose and I know well that leafhoppers can be excellent spreaders of virus diseases among roses.)

Perhaps your rose also is showing symptoms of a virus infection, but not an RRD infection?

(Obviously this is only speculation, but I offer it for thought, and possible rejection.)

That is perfectly normal growth for 'Maman Cochet', have no fear.

Thanks, everyone. I am quite certain there is nothing wrong with my Maman Cochet. I posted those pictures at HMF just so people could see the variation in her canes. Someone else suggested she might be sick, and I felt obliged to at least run that possibility by the membership here. I am now completely confident that she is in excellent health. And since I just took down two trees that were shading her, and am about to re-build her trellising, her next season is going to be glorious.

If I could grow no other Teas, I'd be tempted to select the Cochets. They just can't be beat. (Yeah, just MHO.)

Jeri

Like Paul said, totally normal Cochet growth. I'll bet yours will be glorious with the extra sunshine and support this coming season!! Photos of it this spring will be much appreciated, don't ya know.
Connie