I have Sympathie and really like it, it blooms almost continuous here and is not too fuzzy. Trouble though is that at least mine was slow to start, also here she grows not all that high, maybe 10 feet at the best.

Mary, I grow Climbing Maman Cochet and used to have the white version. I spread them in a fan pattern, so I have no experience going straight up for 8' before spreading out. These climbers are VERY stiff caned, and I have had little success forcing canes out of their original direction. They die. You might be able to aim them up, but then you said you don't want to spend a lot of time on the ladder. I think whatever you choose you're going to be on the ladder a lot. These big climbers get messy real quickly since they throw canes all over the place. Since you have experience with MAC (I don't) and you mention that it's stiff and not a candidate, you may already know what I'm talking about. The climbing Cochets have more than their fair share of big, sharp prickles, too.

I'm going to add Clotilde Soupert, Cl to my garden this spring. In the cooler weather she has pink centers but in the heat she's basically white, and she's quite fragrant. If she's anything like the bush, she's much more lax than the Cochets (even the bushes are heavy-caned). I am told that CS grows to 15', you shouldn't have any trouble covering that wall. I have two bushes that I adore. The balling here is inconsequential since she gets covered with flowers - often. I can't wait to get the climber in my hot little hands.

Here's the link to Climbing Clotilde on HMF.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1231&tab=36

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Crepuscule? She will definitely go up enough (I have her blooming overhead and not until then), seems to have a color that might fit in, and she doesn't get any disease here (which doesn't mean she won't there)....

Susan

Thanks so much for your suggestions! I'm seriously considering all three...

in my very time-consuming way.

I'm afraid I keep going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth between a large number of roses that _almost_ are perfect. I don't want _very stiff_ in that spot, so Mamam Cochet is out.

At one point I'd totally and finally decided on Marechal Niel. Now, it's totally and finally off the list. I don't want to take a chance on cold hardiness on a rose in spot that would be so cumbersome and upsetting to dismantle. Alister Stella Gray has been added to the list. I am beginning to wonder about the wisdom of tying to cover too large an area high up where we don't want to have to work on ladders very often. (My husband will be the one doing the work, and he might prefer something shorter than what theoretically might look nice.) If we could get at least the beginning of some rose eyebrows over the windows, that ought to look nice.

Elemire, Sympathy will likely grow noticeably larger here than there. My main concern with Sympathy is some trepidation with the thorns. Is that one below average on thorns?

Sherry, I've come close to ordering Clotilde Soupert more than once, especially because of its fragrance and shade tolerance. As to my experience with MAC, does coming close to ordering it multiple times count??? My experience there is with reading and rereading portions of books on climbing roses. :) Anyway, one of these days some form of Clotilde Soupert is likely to make its way into this yard with lots of shady spots.

Susan, Crepuscle is looking good here in terms of its low thorniness and the color looks great. I really like its foliage too. What's it like in terms of flexibility? I'm thinking that the HMF designation for a pillar indicates some degree of flexibility. Do you think it likely would be able to make do with a once-yearly late spring tying on at its highest portions that would need a ladder?

I'm leaning strongly toward Crepuscle now as I keep looking at it, but it's so hard to reject the others... Gosh, I wish I had the room (with enough sun) for a zillion roses!

Best wishes,
Mary

P.S. Sherry, your blog is working out quite nicely!

My first view of Crepescule was at a Vintage Gardens Open Garden. She was trained up around a post and then over the top of an arch....Flexible she is !!! But she's also somewhat mannerly and I don't think she would get away from you from season to season.

Susan

My vote would also be for Crespescule. MAC is relatively flexible, at a young stage (I have 3, in different situations). However, the MAC that requires the most attention, where more order is required, needs to be attended to at least two or three times a year -- this is over an arch, with the canes bent nearly horizontal. It is an extremely energetic rose -- the MAC I allow to do what it wants is already 20 feet up a pepper tree, and all over the place in general. Crepescule is very much more thornless, more flexible, much more mannerly, and more likely to have foliage and flowers at a lower level, I think.

I don't know if this helps but I have Cl Maman Cochet climbing up a pergola in my front yard. I've had her in 2 years now and she's climbed the post and is now heading across the pergola (horizontal). So far I've found the canes flexible enough to train this way.

I've only had one bloom so far but it was on the top of the pergola and it hung down and was very charming. I'm looking forward to many more blooms in the years to come.

I would vote for Crepuscule over the MAC (for thorns alone even, as Crep is less armed by far). The only issue with Crepuscule is that she seems to be picky regarding the climate. I don't know what climate you have, but when I was getting mine, there were mixed reports for her in very similar climates to mine. For some she was nice, for some never took off, and some reported that she can be nice one year and then die back a lot next one.

Thanks so much for all your comments. I have at last decided on Crepuscle!

Elemire, we don't live in an identical climate to where the Noisettes originated, but it's not hugely different either - just a little colder winters, with similarly long hot and humid summers most years. This year has been unusual in the way we didn't gradually slide into winter at all; it suddenly went down low, low, low. If we'd had Crepuscle already in the ground, I'd be nervous for it now. But we've lived here for more than 40 years with just this one unusually extraordinarily low early frost winter, so hopefully Crepuscle will get by with the future winters it will be confronted with here. I do think it will like the microclimate with the winter winds protection, assuming there's enough air circulation to avoid too many fungal problems in that spot.

Catspa, the place I am currently thinking of for a MAC would be for climbing into an oak tree. It will have to climb if it wants a decent amount of sun in that spot, I'm afraid, so I guess the trick will be to let it grow a bit in a pot in a sunnier spot first, while training the canes in one direction that can work with the tree when planted in the ground near the tree. Tricky, tricky... and I'm putting off that idea for now.

Jasper, your patience is going to pay off in waiting for a profusion of blooms... and *soon*! I'm hoping not to have to wait quite so long with Crepuscle, but a three-year wait is fairly common for climbers, I understand.

Elemire, Noisettes would by nature probably require some good luck and a really good miroclimate so far north with shorter, cooler summers in the Netherlands? Noisettes are so beautiful, though, that they'd certainly be worth a try if there's any chance at all.

Susan, my latest thinking is to peg some of the canes not too far off the ground under the windows. I was thinking about some short roses to go there, but then I thought how nice a mix of white (something like Marie Pavie) or very pale (like Clotilde Soupert) mixed in with some of the Crepuscle might be under the windows.

I'm excited to be imagining this now! Thanks again for your ideas and comments!

Best wishes,
Mary

Mary, so far so good here with noisettes that I tried, including Crepuscule. I think I might be pairing her with Ghislaine de Feligonde on the arbor, the orange gradient might be nice. Another thing though to consider about Crep is that some report her to be rather shrubby (recently here was a thread about an unidentified rose that seems to be Crep - that kind of srubby). Mine is still too young to tell, but it does want to go to the sides - something to consider between the windows.

MAC can have mildew problems if not watered enough. My friend has her under the oak trees and it seems that those oaks are also prone to mildew - yours I suppose is not?

Hi Elemire,

I've noticed the shrubby element to most of the Noisettes. In most ways in most places, that's good. Here, given that I've decided that I need a few extra canes to pull down to the ground, I think it will work out fine. But if I wanted only a few leggy canes to climb that narrow area between the windows, then shrubby might be a negative.

I looked some more this morning at the narrow spot, and 4.5 feet across is probably stretching it. It's probably just about exactly 4 feet wide... meaning that in order to get the canes traveling upwards at 45 degree angles in such a narrow opening, I'll be really, really glad that Crepuscle is _flexible_.

>Crepuscule. I think I might be pairing her with Ghislaine de Feligonde on the arbor, the orange gradient might be nice.

That sounds like a wonderful pairing to me, Elemire. Crepscule will like every one of the shades of Ghislaine's coloring that she runs into, and both plants will look even better next to the other than they would alone.

I don't know about mildew problems with oak trees, Elemire. If ours have it, then they manage to grow just fine in spite of it. Much of the yard here is covered in all sorts of deciduous trees, and they all do okay without any care at all, except for the dogwoods. Dogwoods are prone to succumb to really bad droughts, so during a drought we water the few dogwoods that are within the reach of our hoses. Other than that, we don't pay attention to the trees. Once in awhile, a large tree dies, and at that point we always speculate that it had had enough of all the droughts here in recent years.

I'd read that Mac likes a lot of water, and have thought some about the competition of tree roots. I've actually thought some about trying out putting a huge pot with some drainage holes into the ground there, and may end up going that way with it. Not this year, though we might get a small MAC started here as soon as this fall if I ever get the total scheme straight in mind for this section of the yard.

We just redid a raised planter (near the potential MAC spot but slightly downhill), and I want to see how those planter roses are doing in terms of the pergola that sits between the two (potentially two) rose sites. Assuming the Renae I cut one cane of RRD out of starts the spring growth with no signs of RRD, then it's going into the planter along with Madame Plantier to climb up the pergola. There's also a Eutin there to wander around the planter floor with some hellebores and spice up the closeup view of the planter from the pergola. If the climbers do reasonably well in their too-shady spot, then we won't need MAC to try to climb up from the other end, and she could then scoot into the nearby oak tree. We cut off the lowest limbs of that oak tree to give some sun to the top of the pergola, and I just hope the amount of direct sunlight there will be sufficient. If not, then I suppose we can put camellias into the planter. (I adore camellias too! It's just that I couldn't quickly get a camellia to do the scented pergola-covering tricks a rose can easily do within a few years.)

Well, I'm off to more rose planning/imagining... Thanks again for your comments!

Best wishes,
Mary

Camellias are lovely, I would like to get one some day, although it is a bit tricky with the climate here.

I suppose, if MAC does not work, you can always look into some once bloomer ramblers for the big trees, although with RRD it is of course tricky, as it sucks to have a huge rose to go down with it. I would be careful with planting MAC in a pot though, as being a big rose she tends to also have big root system, so you have to watch that she does not root through the pot into the soil.

I suppose, if roses do not work on your pergola, you could go for clematis, as those have less issues with part shade and some are fragrant, same for honeysuckles.

Hi Elemire,

Thanks again for your rosey comments. :)

I think eventually I will likely look into clematis climbers too; I do like the looks, especially when combined with roses. I just don't want to introduce a greater disease problem in any too-shady areas. Do you have any particular suggestions for fragrant varieties that aren't terribly prone toward fungal problems?

As for camellias, the bottom line of what could be a million lines here (I'm crazy about camellias): think about Professor C. S. Sargent if you're looking for winter blooms, worried about hardiness, and like fluffy reds. The buds might not make it every single winter, but in almost all our winters a good many of them do. The plant itself _will_ certainly survive in any area where Noisettes can grow.

There are many other camellias you might consider too; see below the Camellia Society's Potomac Valley Chapter for suggestions on others that are especially hardy. I notice that they mention Lady Vansittart there. We have the white with red streaks version of that one and adore it. It's very hardy. But looking at your zone, I'd suspect that you don't need to worry about the majority of potential camellia choices; it gets colder here than where you are. And I'd suppose that you can make up some for the short summer season there with less intense sun by giving it a less shady spot than what might be needed here.

Marie Bracey isn't supposed to be as hardy as Lady Van Sittart, but if you can grow Noisettes, then it's plenty hardy for you. It has been more winter tolerant here than some others (meaning bud hardy - no question as to plant hardiness, here where it hasn't gone down below about 9 degrees F since we planted the first camellia). It's also called Spellbound, depending on where you buy it. The second name is so apt! We have six of them, as you can never have too many of any plant so beautiful, it's spellbinding! Once established, it puts up with drought and total neglect too, growing in a lot of shade or a lot of sun. Very healthy. Consider that one if you'd like to have some semi-doubles with wavy petals and HUGE blooms. Here's a picture of it in one of its bloom forms:

http://www.camellias-acs.com/display.aspx?catid=3,136,137,160&pageid=381

If you get Marie Bracey, try to get the largest plant you can; it takes several years to get around to blooming. Just be sure to cut into the root ball some - maybe three fairly deep vertical cuts the height of the pot - and loosen up the dirt a bit to get it growing outward into your own soil when planting it (or any camellia).

A good nursery in the European area is the Trehane Nursery in Great Britian; the owner wrote a wonderful camellia book. She knows her camellias and they carry many varieties.

Camellias and roses have foliage and forms that are so different from each other that the combination is delightful!

Best wishes,
Mary

Here is a link that might be useful: Potomac Valley suggested cold hardy varieties

Thanks a lot for the suggestions Mary, I noted all the names! It is also good to know about the nursery in UK, as we have similar climate here. As they are evergreen, I will have to pick a spot carefully, as spring sun usually does more damage for evergreen here than the actual frost, but with a bit of shade in the early spring it probably would work. We usually get some for sale in the early spring, but as I haven't seen many in the gardens around, I am careful about the variety selection. :)

About clematis, there are not that many fragrant ones, but at least viticellas usually are pretty reliable here and do not have any weird health issues. Betty Corning probably the most known of the fragrant of that kind. Some flammula group clematis also are fragrant (although they often are not that much of the climbers, but rather tall shrubs), some of Atragene group are also scented (the ones with Antique literature names) and not disease prone as much as I am aware about it. Honeysuckles are probably more fragrant choice, although some varieties can have issues with mildew.

Crepuscule was EASY and controlled for me. I loved her...and I miss her. Picture from the old house:

{{gwi:220217}}

In this picture I have a lot of unblooming underplantings (sorry it looks messy) and I have let Crepuscule get wide in the spot alloted. She was easy to prune and tie up and until canes had age on them, quite flexible. I never sprayed her and she stayed clean (SC zone 7).

Good luck in whatever you decide!

>As they are evergreen, I will have to pick a spot carefully, as spring sun usually does more damage for evergreen here than the actual frost, but with a bit of shade in the early spring it probably would work.

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about that, Elemire. I know I've read in plenty of places to worry about it for camellias, but we have deciduous trees here and there are no leaves on them almost the entire time any of our winter/spring camellias are blooming. And we have a couple of camellias sitting where they get pretty intense sun in June and July. They all do fine! I'm not saying that if I really, really looked for some kind of sun damage it's impossible to have found any... but if it was there, I never noticed. The flowers and the plants are overwhelmingly beautiful.

>About clematis....

Thanks so much for the pointers! I'll save that information in my "Yard" notebook.

Best wishes,
Mary

>Crepuscule was EASY and controlled for me.

EASY is exactly what we are looking for! (Surprise, surprise... :)

The picture of your Crepuscle looks gorgeous, Rhonda. Thank you so much for posting it! I can so easily visualize it in our spot now.

Your Crepuscle is exactly what I am hoping for here. My husband likes it too. It does look quite manageable. It looks as if yours had some dappled shade in the morning or afternoon? Ours is going to have to do some climbing to really get as much sun as it might prefer... but I'm assuming the rose will know to do that. Did it take three years for yours to get going? We're prepared for that, but I'm hoping to see a little size and some blooms within a couple of years.

Best wishes,
Mary

The picture I posted is of Crepuscle at one year old. I did have GREAT soil there though. I purchased the rose from Rosesunlimited on it's own roots.

It got only a bit of shade in the morning but then plenty the rest of the day. The bricks were pretty hot in summer and I tried to pick a rose that wouldn't 'blow' the blooms in extreme heat.

This rose was perfect for the spot, and I hope it will be for yours too!

Ronda

All Tea roses and Tea-Noisttes make excellant climbers, in m.h.o..
Vintage is importing the climbing form of "Duchess de Brabant" which it is selling under its European name, It has globular shaped roses of a lovely raspberry pink to silvery pink. The bush form re-blooms rapidly and all through January gives a full flush of roses, the only rose I've collected that does so in my collection, near San Francisco.
Luanne is growing the climbing form of Devoniensis on rootstock, as a self supporting bush and it is a rosebush of great beauty, the plant has grown to show arching canes spread gracefully to c. a 12 foot width. I prefer the blooms of Devoniensis to Mac, for it is a fuller rose of vast beauty. But Mac has more abundant foliage,and I love it as a climber for that reason.
I've also grown white Maman Cochet" both the bush form and climbing form and "Reve d'Or" and am espaliering "Crepescule" a lovely golden orange rose, on a fence, and love it dearly for it holds its color better in our warm climate than the paler golden peach "Reve d"or".

Luxrosa
p.s. vintagegardens.com is importing several climbing Teas and Tea-Noisettes from France, that haven't been grown in North America.. an exciting new bevy of beauties!!!

>It got only a bit of shade in the morning but then plenty the rest of the day. The bricks were pretty hot in summer and I tried to pick a rose that wouldn't 'blow' the blooms in extreme heat.

That's about the amount of shade it will get at ground level here (or maybe a bit more than that), but the higher it grows the more sun it will get. The south-facing (wooden) wall itself gets pretty hot in the sun, but not as hot as a brick wall can get.

Some of the shade in that spot has to do with other nearby walls. The one thing that concerns me is the potential shade in the winter when the sun has such a low angle most of the day (shade thanks to two nearby walls, one to the west and one to the south). It will get plenty of sun in June and July, but November to February, not so much. It's the only place in our yard where we're thinking of planting roses that have that nearby wall-to-the-south condition now, but another spot where we used to have roses were sitting maybe ten feet to the north of our house and they did fine until they got Rose Rosette Disease. So I'm hopeful, though this spot also has a very low wall to the west that's only about eight feet away.

>This rose was perfect for the spot, and I hope it will be for yours too!

Only time will tell, I guess. But if this rose doesn't do well, then I won't figure that it's the rose variety that's to blame; I'll probably figure on a combination of lower winter sunlight and reduced air flow in a very wind-protected spot (about 16 feet out from a north wall on our house but growing on a south-facing wall). I have my fingers crossed! I have definitely decided that this variety stands as good a chance as any for doing well in the spot. And I love its looks.

Thanks again for your very encouraging picture, Rhonda!

Best wishes,
Mary