Dana, I gave up veggies years ago and converted my small garden plots to a natural area. Ornamental cherry trees, azaleas (both native and exotic), Japanese maples, Kousa dogwood, redbuds, rhododendrons, viburnums, oakleaf hydrangeda, and other shrubs replaced the tomatoes, peppers, beans, squash, and corn plots. Now that the trees and shrubs have matured I had to cut two Yoshino cherries (kept the Okame and Kwanzan) and the viburnums shaded out the daylilies, irises, and lilies. The azaleas are crowding the pathway and always need pruning after blooming. Now at our new house, I have the opportunity to have both a moderate veggie garden and a natural area since the lot is more than twice the size. As for seed growing under lights, that is what I used to do to get a jump on growing. My problem was I had "visions of sugar plums dancing in my head" so I had too many seeds and different types going on at the same time. I eventually started to plant only half of the seed since I learned from mistakes that sometimes things go wrong (Murphy's law) such as drying out, damping off, those pesky fungus gnats, dropping the tray, etc. Lotus and water lilies from seed do not take long at all to grow. The tropical water lilies will be blooming the same year. Lotus may take an extra year. Lotus is hardy even up in Tennessee. I don't know how hardy they are in your area. After they germinate and put out some leaves, you can put them in your pond. I would start them out on a shelf or bricks at the bottom to get them closer to the surface. Once the leaves reach the surface they grow very fast. Of course the weather has to be warm. After the leaves are floating on the surface you can put the pot on the bottom of the pond. The lotus does well in shallow water. A kiddy pool is excellent for lotus and Japanese iris as well. DO NOT put koi in a pond with plants. The koi will disturb the soil inside the potted plants making a big muddy mess. Instead have two ponds - one for plants and goldfish and snails, the other for koi. I think the best idea is to have two levels with the top pond being for plants and goldfish and letting the water fall to the bottom pond. You can mix koi and goldfish but if there is not enough food, I wonder if the koi would eat the goldfish? For apartments, I would stick with a conventional aquarium, unless you have space and a strong floor (or you are on a slab) to put in a pond. You are right on the plants mentioned not doing well in the south. It just gets too hot and sometimes drought makes you think of Arizona (not really). There are exceptions though. Primroses are treated as annuals here but I planted several in a spot of the front yard of the old house around a birch tree. Out of six (or more), one survived and continues to flourish. It is at the base of the tree as well. It has made it through 4 hot summers now. Also, for the people who are lucky enough to have a creek running through their property, they can have all kinds of primroses (makes me sick). My uncle in Alaska grows primroses for profit and for showing. I just don't want to live in Alaska even if primroses were the only flower in the world. I will stick to showy evening Mexican primroses (Oenothera speciosa) which are perennial, very showy, can be weedy, but blooms non-stop for about 4 weeks in May. There are several evening primroses but most are yellow. The Mexican one is pink and can go to white. I grew mine from seed and can fill a space in no time. I always wanted to grow the primula Japonica or the candlelabra types but never had much luck. (T&M is where I got these kinds of seed but germination was very poor). Lupines and dephiniums are treated like annuals as well here. I do not like to pay perennial prices for plants that are annual in nature. You should be able to buy a six pack of either plant for the same price as a 4 inch pot. Also lupines are very easy to grow from seed. Of course if you drive through Maine, they grow like weeds. Texas bluebonnets are pretty but not as pretty as the Russell types. Yes, clivia does take about 3 to 4 years to bloom from seed. A blooming clivia may cost anywhere from 15 to 25 dollars (shop around). I bought 5 seeds from Park's many years ago for $3.50. Six seeds actually were in the package. Four germinated (67% success) but I lost one (boo hoo). The remaining three grew to mature plants. I gave one to my mother which she has divided many times and passed them on. I did not divide mine like she did but did grow several from seed from the mother plants which I gave to my sisters, daughters, friends, and neighbors. Most people don't take care of them and soon lose them. Then they are amazed when they see mine in full bloom and want one. When I tell them I gave them one years ago, they suddenly develop amnesia. Now there are yellow ones, bi-colored ones, variegated leaves, and the breeding goes on. Butch Here is a picture of mine blooming:

after googling "glyphosate salt", several links came up supporting lou. sorry DS, lou wins this round :) If we're keeping score, the fair thing would be to google glysophate salt and also to google glyphosate acid. Whether you use quotes or not, you'll get about twice as many hits for acid as for salt. I've done a little reading, and technically, glyphosate is an acid, but it can be used in salt form. Here is a link that explains it fairly well. Strictly speaking, glyphosate is an acid, but some glyphosate based herbicides use a glyphosateate based salt. The wikipedia article Deerslayer linked mentions that it is sold in formulations as a salt and as an acid. Everything I've read on the matter leads me to believe that Deerslayer is correct in saying that glyphosate is an acid. It can be sold in a salt form, so there is some validity to Lou's statements, but technically, glyphosate is an acid.

Jeff, I know it's hard, but if you can get out there early, look real close on the branch of the plant, I mean stare at it, I swear that's catipillar damage. They are usually on the branches, and when they see you or hear you, they are real still, and sometimes it's hard to see them. If you see one, you have more than one. They are chomping the tops off, that is what catipillars do. I picked 7 or 8 off of one of my plants, just pull them off, they don't bite. Also, wash the bush down real good, there are little black eggs on the bush too, you have to look close to see it. If your problem is catipillars, but that is what my plant looked like, and I caught them. It will take a couple days to find them, they are hard to see, they look like your plant.

Wow, had no idea they spread that much! Thanks DG...I have since dug up the plant and put it in a large pot a few weeks ago. It was blocking my sprinkler head and killing the grass in front of it. I thought I killed it :o(...the plant went in shock and all the leaves drooped. I removed all the leaves and hoped for the best...within 2 weeks new growths came up from all the areas I removed the leaves from...here it is today. I knew digging it up after Its been in the ground for 2 1/2 years was not a good idea since I really thought it wasn't going to make it anyways...