It's a noble thought, Kippy, but a hard sell. The average gardener isn't a "rosarian". They want the blooms they see in the florist shops so that's what the nursery orders because that's what they can sell. Maybe if we could get the florist shops to sell those beautiful old roses we might get somewhere.

The other problem is that most local nurseries don't have the time, money or space to grow out rooted cuttings for sale. People want a big mature rose for their money, not a small rooted cutting. Stock sitting around in pots that are not big enough to sell, but require care, are a big overhead and drain on a small nursery that they can't afford. To mature a rooted cutting to sale size probably takes about 3 years at least. They need plants they can move quickly. So they buy large bare roots and pot them up early in the spring and grow them out just long enough for them to be leafed out, blooming and attractive in the spring for quick sale.

Good for that rosarian that he did promote a more organic regime and the right rose for the right spot. Few do. For the most part societies promote show roses and that works right into what the nurseries sell.

I agree Seil, but not every nursery is the same.

The one I visited yesterday does have fields where they grow out roses and other plants. If they bought bands, potted them and grew them out a year, they would not have big plants, but they would have plants that would be a size that could sell. If they did not sell the first season they would have an even bigger plant for the following year, just like they already do. And I am not suggesting a wide variety, but a few selected for that area. And with the popularity of heirlooms etc in the grocery, a premium price to match.

Just seems that unless more people discover the older roses and the nurseries that provide them, that they will slowly fade away.

Another issue is the lack of wholesale pricing on bands from specialty nurseries. J&P used to offer their dozen or so OGRs budded and those were what you would traditionally find in nurseries as they could be obtained as part of the minimum order, for approximately the same costs as the usual moderns. Unless you're bringing in things from Canada, there honestly isn't a source for suitable OGR types here. They would have to pay the same price for the band from Vintage (or Burlington) as you would, grow it on and then sell it for a comparable price to their other roses. I don't know current wholesale costs for budded stock as I'm not privy to that information currently, but several years ago, they generally ran $6 - $7 each, (Grade 1, J&P, Week's) before potting and growing to bud and bloom size. The #1.5 grade from the local schlock grower ran $2.45 each, before canning. The prices you see on the specialty sites are the same for you as they are for the nurseries. Figure the costs have to be pretty much tripled from bare root to bud and bloom. And, remember that a budded plant is pretty much retail ready 8 - 12 weeks from receipt. A band is going to take 12 - 24 months, adding significantly to the cost of the plant. Kim

I understand that the cost would be higher, but that does not seem to stop people from shopping at Whole Foods. :)

Just think that it might be a win-win situation. Four or six easy to start Antiques, sold by some one like Burlington or Vintage. Add a year or so on the nursery grow out back lot and suddenly....

Super Premium "Heirloom" Roses

Kippy, you might talk to that nursery owner, and see what he says. It would seem that to be profitable, he'd have to do his own cuttings rather than buy bands. That's a whole 'nother business from his plant nursery. Nice thought though. I don't think there will ever be a local walk-in source for OGR's unless you live near the ones we mail-order from. Too bad. Rose Petals Nursery just had their monthly open sale day yesterday which Cyd said went really well. But obviously very few rose-nuts live near an OGR nursery. RPN is an hour away. Any closer and I'd be in trouble.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I want to believe, Kippy, but my experiences, and those others have experienced and I've observed, contradict it. I honestly attempted to provide what you are suggesting in the Palisades. Six and a half years I attempted that. I offered Teas, Chinas, Climbing Teas, Noisettes, Hybrid Musks and older moderns. I tried them budded from Ashdown and own root from Sequoia. I could sell Brilliant Pink Icebergs at $35 per 5 gallon, bud and bloom, by the dozens. VERY few were even the slightest bit interested in the others. A few rose nuts made good use of the service, but not enough to warrant continuing to offer them. And, the moderns sold themselves. The "antiques" required much time and hand-holding to find homes for. The only method which really worked was offering a pre sale on budded Ashdown antiques. An LA Times article featuring those classes and promoting us as the exclusive LA source, combined with our local advertising and an offer to take orders for anything in the catalog so there were no miniums and virtually no shipping, resulted in people coming from all over Southern California. They were notified as soon as the plants were received and picked them up bare root. But moving canned, bud and bloom antiques was like pulling teeth. Kim

I totally understand Kim. I think it is hard to get people interested on a big scale. That is why I thought a very narrow selection of only the easiest to start, care for and good growers would work. Plants that some one like Burling could root easily and sell for enough to support the time spent on budding etc.

Additionally, it would have to be a more regional selection. But it does seem like a way for the smaller nurseries to stay in business, for Rose Societies to attract members interested in more than how to tell their gardener to care for Iceberg and use a currently popular trend (Heirlooms etc) to bring back the past.

Just try and find a Lady Banks rose in a garden center. I see them all over in yards-freeways etc, but just where do you buy one? (Actually I know cause I did a search but you get what I mean)

I think offering tons of variety is a challenge and not what I am suggesting at all.

Just seems like it would set non chain nurseries, who have a harder time to start with, on a path to offer something they do not have to price match the local Home Depot.

And I know the nursery you're talking about. I've worked with them, and they still use some material I supplied them with.

But I know how their business model works.

They don't, really, field-grow their plants. They buy literally thousands of field-grown bare-root plants, bring them in, fall through maybe December, and pot them up in 5-G. They get a lot of summer heat there, so they can push plants pretty hard, and have thousands of plants in bud and bloom by April, when they have a big event.

Through the rest of the year, they sell mostly to landscapers.

They have from time-to-time offered a few Old Roses, and a large number of Austin Shrub Roses.

We found that plants we bought there took a good year to recover from being pushed as hard as they were, so we don't do that anymore. Which is no loss to them. We really don't buy much anymore, from anyone.

And, Kim wasn't the only nursery which, for a time, offered antiques. A couple of nurseries in Ventura Co. did -- but one is now out of business, and the other is no longer so adventurous.

Jeri

Jeri, this is one in SB, not the other hot zone one you are thinking of. This one still has the 5 foot tree roses they haul from the back to the front every season. The other is a commercial lot and not what I was thinking of at all.

The one I am referring to brings in locally started heirloom veggies at a premium price, why not add roses?

Try Home Depot for Banksiaes. The local one in Van Nuys frequently has double white, double yellow, "Snowflake" (Fortuniana) and Purezza in one and five gallon cans! I know they wouldn't have them if they weren't such good landscape plants. Now to get them to stock Mutabilis instead of "Red Lady Banks"! LOL! Kim

The best way to promote it is to talk to them, Kippy. They won't know there's any interest unless people ask about OGRs. If you do they might just think about ordering some for next season. It's probably something we should all do at our local nurseries!

Seil, I too was thinking on a bigger scale than just one nursery.

Kim, our HD has "red lady banks" but that is it. Try and find a Cecile Brunner at a nursery. How can so many people have them and yet no nurseries with them?

I think the lack has a lot to do with the economy, the big nursery companies contracting(J&P) and the changes in the rose buying public.

Just seems like some of the Rose Societies could take a lead in refreshing peoples minds and ideas of what antique (Heirloom) roses are in a fashion that benefits the local small businesses, the small nurseries and the societies as well.

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Sun, Jan 6, 13 at 17:48

Regans in Fremont, CA sells own-root old roses along side their moderns. I think they get them from Pickerings, or some of them at least.

Rosefolly

Years ago I worked in a nursery in Santa Fe. The woman who managed the trees and shrubs was an OGR addict--in fact, she's the one who got me going. She ordered whatever OGRs and Austins she could from Star, Arena, J&P and sold them well because she loved them. Over the years, she developed a whole following and was able to order more and more. I don't think she ordered from any of the OGR vendors, however, just from the bigger companies with whom the nursery had accounts. Unfortunately, I don't know how the story ends. I quit to start my own landscaping business and discovered VG to feed my habit. She left the nursery a year or so later.

For those of you near Tallahassee, FL, the Goodwood Plantation will be having their annual sale of OGR on February 9, 2013. Sale runs from 9 AM to Noon. The proceeds are used for upkeep on the property. The plantation can be toured and it is fascinating. It is actually in Tallahassee.

I've brought many roses from them over the last few years. The prices are LOW and the plants are lovely. You need to be there when they open.

nattspur, darnit I'm in class from 9 am to noon. Oh, well, I didn't have room for any new roses this year anyway.

Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to buy roses from Burleng, Vintage, and others directly?

Thanks for that.

Having watched so many of them disappear, I really DO want to preserve the specialty rose nurseries we still have. There are some terrific ones in Florida, in Texas, and a handful left here on the West Coast.

The dedicated people who run them have gone through some tough times, and care enough to keep going. Some of them offer roses that may exist no where else, and we can't afford to see them fail. We really can't.

Jeri

Jeri and Mendo,

That is WHY I thought some way of promoting nurseries like Burlington and Vintage would be a good cause.

If you are your average rose buyer, you might think that going to the local nursery is better than the box store. But, why not take that a step forward and encourage the local nursery to buy from the Burlington and Vintage type nurseries and offer a 'new' super premium 'Heritage Rose' to the community. And ONCE people discover the Heritage Roses, the Heritage Rose societies can help direct them to the Burlington and Vintage type nurseries for a greater variety of types.

I don't think a rose society selling SMALL one variety plants at a local nursery sponsored demo would be a problem IF it included info on potting up (sales for the nursery in supplies) and an introduction to the premium Heirloom roses.

I think that there is a way to make awareness a win-win-win situation for rose societies, specialty suppliers and local nurseries.

Right now if I go to the local, they have tubs of bareroots with fancy names like English Roses, Romantica Roses and of course HT, Fb etc...why not have Heirloom Roses be promoted as well (thinking potted plants not bareroots).

Seems to me, rose societies need members, specialty suppliers need buyers and local nurseries need to make sales.

I think it is something to think about.

I understand. And maybe it would work in Santa Barbara.

It didn't work in Camarillo, or in the Palisades, where Kim ran that neat nursery -- but maybe Santa Barbarans would be more receptive.

Jeri

Around here, a surprisingly large percentage of gardeners would never dream of ordering a plant mail order, or seeking out a specialty nursery. They buy what the local nurseries stock. So having the local nurseries stock roses from specialty suppliers would have the desired effect of raising awareness of the 'outer world'.

IMHO, many of the ideas to force people to patronize the specialty nurseries have simply closed off alternate avenues of thought without helping the people they are supposed to help.

Specializing in OGRs didn't even REALLY work for Limberlost, either, Jeri. Bob kept it open to have something to do. Even after he sold it, adding moderns from all over helped, but never enough to keep it paying the bills. Kim

A fascinating discussion. I think that local rose societies and local heritage rose groups could have a huge role to play here, both to their own benefit and that of heritage roses. A yearly heritage rose event and sale that features roses unavailable at local nurseries could become a well-publicized and well-attended event that would raise cash for us as well as educate the public. If it did well, we might be able to convince a local nursery or two to carry some of the OGRs that do well locally between heritage rose events. But I think the onus is on us old rose lovers to create a local market.
At these events, we could also feature the catalogs of the specialty nurseries as well, hopefully giving them more customers too.

I must not be defining my idea clearly

When I say rose societies, I mean rose societies around the country that have an interest in keeping old roses and their suppliers alive.

When I say specialty suppliers, I mean the Burlingtons, Vintages, Etc around the country that bud, root etc bands and sell via limited on site sales, internet, mail order etc.

When I say local nurseries, I mean the more locally owned nurseries that sell a variety of gardening items. From plants, to pots, to seeds, veggie starts, fertilizer etc. These are the ones that order and sell the bareroots and larger roses through out the year along with sod etc. They have to compete with the box stores, Home Depot Lowes etc. Having a selection different from Icebergs and Knock-Outs gives them something they can not have to sell cheap or at loss to get customers in the door.

I see the first win as: helping both local rose societies draw in new members as well as support larger organizations by raising awareness of roses other than knock-outs and body bags.

I see the next win as: the specialty suppliers know they will have some larger bulk orders to the local nurseries and that more people will be exposed to the products they offer.

And the last win is for the local nursery that is probably working hard to stay open and having a premium plant, that requires little extra care than time, water and fertilizer that people can not find at a Home Depot.

Not only were they tried, and failed, but in significantly better economies than we've had for the past several years. At that time, your comment that an overwhelming % of people wanted those colors HTs was accurate, Jeri. Unfortunately, across the board, an increasingly greater % of the market is demanding Knock Out, Iceberg and their variants. When they introduced Knock Out, the industry had hoped it would stimulate the sales of ALL of their roses. Instead, Knock Out took the place of MOST of their roses, with the HTs falling quickly from favor due to their reputation for being finicky and demanding chemical intervention. I also hear you, Kippy, and little would make me happier than for something like this to succeed. It didn't in a better economy, in more upscale areas, before Knock Out. Kim

The struggle reminds me of when I was doing PR/Ad work 25 years ago for a hip new Italian restaurant. The chef/owner wanted to introduce his clientele to great Italian dishes like risotto and gnocchi which were unknown to the majority of the local diners at the time. Unfortunately, they invariably came in and wanted lasagna and spaghetti. What he discovered after 6 months is that, "you can feed people or you can educate people, but if you try to do both you will lose your shirt."

I think that's the problem with local nurseries and OGRs. They just can't afford to teach people what they ought to be growing in their gardens. Just staying open is enough of a struggle without telling potential customers they don't really want what they think they want.

I do think what will ultimately save OGRs is the internet. Not just the convenience to customers who want to buy and sellers who want to sell, but almost just as important is the ability to do a search. These forums come up on the first page of just about any search that includes the word "rose." And then there is the awesomeness of helpmefind! Those of you that are amazing experts that show up here every few days and answer the same questions over and over again with patients and thoughtfulness should not under estimate the role you may be playing in the big picture of things.

From a personal point of view I would have never tried OGRs if not for the ability to order over the internet and the helpfulness of this forum. Kim, Jeri, Ann Peck and others don't know me from Adam, but as I sit here at my kitchen counter I KNOW you guys have my back! You're rooting for my success and you seem delighted to spend your time giving me advice. Stop for a second and think how incredible that is!

Ten years ago I read a few articles about OGRs and rose rustling, I was very interested, yet didn't pursue it because I simply didn't know how. Today it is a different story!

While, Kippy, I certainly see merit in what you're saying and I could spend a fun afternoon toying with possiblities (and awakening my old PR mojo :-) ) I think when there is limited manpower and limited funding you have to focus on your strengths. Personally, I think the strength in the movement is right here and in places like hmf. If anything thought could be given as to how to expand this field of influence...

This post was edited by subk3 on Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 23:33

Thanks subk3 for the great analogy - spaghetti/lasagna vs. gnocchi and risotto. Exactly! This is a marketing/PR problem. So how did gnocchi/risotto become popular? By starting with the folks who are the trend-setters and by getting stories into upscale magazines read by fine diners and chefs. Also people who travelled to Italy had their palates upgraded and they began to wonder how to get these delicacies in the US. Chefs caught on too.

So how can we apply a similar analogy to roses? Knockout vs. Lady Hillingdon? I think we start with those of us who are already hooked (including, by the way, such trend setters as Martha Stewart, who loves old roses and sometimes does OGR Rose Porn spreads in her magazine)and build on that. So how can we cleverly promote the beauty and toughness of the old roses, especially to professional landscapers who do all the upscale gardens? We have lots of good speakers, Power Points and writers in our midst to do this.

David Austin is a savvy rose marketer of old-style roses who might teach us a trick or two. He even sells some of the oldies in his catalog. And he's starting to sell bouquets of the old-style roses for top prices to the 1% who can afford them for weddings, etc. This will surely make oldies and repros seem like the upscale thing to do - and vastly more fashionable than the chemically-sprayed imported HTs from South America?

Hippy, I don't think we're going to convert the local nurseries until the groundwork has been laid to create customer demand. Lots of work for all of us to do!

I think if someone could encourage Martha Stewart or another popular television host to do a show on old garden roses, and mention nurseries which sell them, we could see more people seeking them out. There is already a bunch of info on old garden roses at Martha's website, but it's something you'd have to know to look for. I don't watch her show, so I don't know if the topic has already been done, but I think it's worth at least an annual show.

:-)

~Christopher

Good idea, Christopher. Does anyone know someone who works for Martha?

First, you need to develop/discover an OGR which fits not only all of your criteria, but is also AS black spot resistant as Knock Out and its variants. Yes, I know it spots in some climates, but it has been scientifically shown to be THE singularly most black spot resistant rose to all five major races of black spot in the US. Period. It was deliberately bred and selected precisely for that trait. Then, you have to figure out how to make it possible for someone to patent your OGR, making it profitable to put the kind of advertising behind it they've put behind Knock Out. All of that costs money. Until that money (and more) can be recouped, it ain't happening. Kim

Thanks LBuzz,

Having once owned a business that time and technology changes and made obsolete, I guess loosing something like the specialty suppliers is a bit closer to home for me. They maybe able to say alive by just internet, but that requires people to know that there are other options out there to search.

Seems like despite the down economy, there is greater awareness of Heirlooms/Organics/buying local and that is the segment of the population to target.

I ordered bands knowing they would come small and will grow up, but I think it is a harder sell to some one who is just starting out in the garden. I know those "twigs in a small pot" will someday be a bigger plant. I think that offering the public a larger plant would be more appealing. Note that I do NOT suggest a large variety! That is where I think the problem is, it is a huge investment to offer a big variety, but 4 types is a place to start and including some kind of "brochure" that lists where to purchase more varieties.

Kim: I think offering varieties based on how they do in that area is the way to go. Helping people to become aware of what they can grow easily and has been growing in grannies back yard is the way to go.

(I started this post, work interrupted and posted before I saw Kim's reply)

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Wed, Jan 9, 13 at 14:12

Kippy- I think you have a good idea, but I would add that a class on the advantages of old roses might be the best way to get people interested...and then take them to the section with those roses.

If the class also promoted some of the suppliers, maybe the nursery and the supplier could work together and help each other out. Kind of like a mall can support numerous stores...there is an advantage to teaming up at times! :)

Hi Kippy,
I gather you also live in Santa Barbara? It would be great to meet you and talk roses.In case you're free, our SB Rose Society's Heritage Rose Lovers Circle is meeting for a potluck lunch gathering at a member's home to talk about our favorite rose books on Sun. Jan 20. If you'd like more info, let me know. I wish every Rose Society would have an OGR sub-committee :-)
Linda

Hi Linda, I am in SB and am going to go watch Jeri this weekend. Will you be there? The lunch sounds fun but I think that is the weekend I have Man help on moms house. (And boy do I need Man help there) But I would love to hear about your group.

I forgot to respond to Kippy, who said: "Seems like despite the down economy, there is greater awareness of Heirlooms/Organics/buying local and that is the segment of the population to target."

I think you're absolutely right! Buying local is now a huge megatrend and each community (and heritage rose group)needs to know about the OGRs that do well there. We can certainly publicize the merits of heritage roses on a national/international basis but it all comes down to telling our neighbors what does well for us, providing disease-free beauty. This is what has kept all those Cecile Brunner's alive and well in our area. People see them, love them and pass them around. And many of our local nurseries also carry them for this reason.

Hi Kippy,
Glad you'll be attending Jeri's terrific OGR pruning event. We've been to one and it was wonderful - but won't be there this year.
Can you email me off list at lbuzzell (at) aol.com ? I'll be happy to add you to the email list for our local SBRS Heritage Rose Circle so you'll hear about our next event. We're pretty informal, just meet every once in a while - and have great fun.
Or we can just meet for tea and rose talk...
Good luck with the work on your mom's home:-)
Linda

Perhaps a garden tour of private gardens, such as yours, with mature old roses at peak season would stimulate the interest that you want. You could contact a local nursery to see if they would be willing to carry a few OGRs so that the tour could end at the nursery where those taking the tour could purchase the roses that they enjoyed. That way roses that performed well in that area could be viewed and purchased, eliminating some of the trial and error that goes with growing roses that is so discouraging to so many who are not as zealous as we are.

Cath

Get some orders together and encourage Vintage and others to offer wholesale and get it going. A win win for both. Vendors can not promise to try and supply something that there may or may not be a market for. If you can sell 400 old roses of one variety then hit up a place that has it and see if you can get a wholesale discount or if they are even able to fill an order like that.

I remember 2 local nurseries I loved that had old roses. One was Pixie Treasures miniature rose nursery and the other was Heard's delightful cottage style nursery. Both were family run nurseries and the owners had great personal style. I would think Hybrid musks and Polyanthas would be easy to sell as both come into bloom on a small plant.

I try to sell some potted old roses at my yearly spring plant&yard sale but they are a hard sell unless they are in peak bloom or I can show my plant in full bloom. Sometimes someone will buy when I show a picture of the blooms in a book or the picture of my plant in bloom but mostly people buy up the cut bouquets and annual baskets. Some people are scared and don't want a big shrub even if it is minimal care.Around here, there aren't enough big old roses around and people need to become comfortable with them.

I just add this message to respond to the notion of a rose sale or auction. Following the lead of Jeri n Clay, the Ventura County Rose Society put on major rose auctions of rare and unusual roses for about ten years; first, annually, then later every two years. As an educational device, the auction was a great success for those putting it on. As someone who started out as a contributor to the catalog that accompanied the auction and wound up writing most of it, I learned a lot. (Most of it had to do with commercial viability.) As a financial effort, it was also a great success. HOWEVER,it was every bit as labor intensive as the traditional rose show, involved enormous amounts of energy and time (gathering and storing of roses, mailing off winning bids to those out of state, etc.) and engendered some antipathy on the part of rose society members who did not want to be involved in what they regarded as scut work; (unfortunately, a lot of life involves doing scut work.) Eventually, we gave it up with 2011 being the last of the auctions. Over the course of the years we probably distributed over a thousand roses, most of which were OGRs or unusual and rare (Clark roses from Austalia before they became easily available, frix.) The only way for the enterprise to operate was to open up a national audience in order to find buyers for roses not well known--even if said roses were perfectly suited to the Ventura County climate--e.g. chinas, noisettes, and teas. The trouble is that the audience for OGRS and unusual roses tends to be spread out across the country in numbers not large enough to sustain viable commercial operations. I might add that the practices of many rose societies in permitting widespread use of cuttings from rose shows, celebrations and the like cuts down on the potential profit or even transactions. I am reminded that Frank Benardella used to dip his show roses in Round-up so as to discourage people from using his entries as sources for free roses...
Jim D