Aimee, of the roses you list, I can only speak directly about Mme. Antoine Mari. At 5 years in the ground, she is about 5' tall and 6 - 7' wide and seems more inclined to get wide than tall. She has leaves all the way to the ground and only this year got noticeable mildew after the first flush (tough year for that here). She has gotten past that now. Very resilient: during this year's first flush we had heavy rain with ferocious winds. She, and others of the twiggier teas, got weighed down and blown about and big ugly gapes opened in the tops of bushes. MAM, in addition, had a huge branch (close to 1/4 of her top) break off. She looked bad. But within about 3 weeks she honestly looked like nothing had happened whatsoever and was blooming like crazy (while Alliance Franco-Russe is still showing the effects of that storm, a bit). She is, hands down, the most floriferous tea in my garden so far (I have Le Vesuve, too, but she's too young to make a fair comparison; however, it's going to be hard to beat "constantly in bloom", as MAM is). Her colors do vary. The first flush, in cooler weather, is ivory in the center blending to, as Sherry says, pale porcelain pink outer petals with a touch of carmine. This time of the year, she opens the same way, but quickly goes rather pink, lighter in the center, darker outer petals. The blooms on the north side of the bush stay paler. Despite a reputation for having few petals,some blooms I checked in the first flush this year had more than 100 petals/petalloids. Later flushes have fewer petals, but still have beautiful form. Her blossoms have that opalescent luster or texture that I just love. Her pink is more on the purple-ish side than the red or coral side, if that consideration is important to you (it is to me, unfortunately: my neighbor across the street has a large planting of Sexy Rexy blooming under a pale lilac pink crape myrtle -- oh dear). I think General Schablikine wants to be taller than 6', based on the ones at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, where they have pruned him and many other teas to a fare-thee-well and he is still at or over my head. Perhaps Le Vesuve is amenable to pruning, but I still planted mine on a 12' center (hopefully not presuming too much!) after reading the account of the "Grand Avenue Giant" at the Le Vesuve entry in the link below, because I want mine to look like that, eventually :-). Here is a link that might be useful: Cass's Garden with Roses

Baronne Prevost could probably be trained on a pillar but it is fiercely prickly - the big, pointed kinds - I would not want to be the one to tie it up! We have Mme Joseph Schwarz growing in almost total shade in the Sacramento cemetery where it stays clean and blooms. I'm pretty sure it's a sport of Duchesse de Brabant since it sometimes throws pink flowers, but it performs much better. DdB gets mildew here, too, although our summer heat discourages it so the mildew is spring and fall. I heard a European speaker (don't remember who) extoll Mme Joseph Schwatz's virtues as a much superior plant to DdB, and that's been my experience too. Some teas are big. Some are huge. Mrs. Dudley Cross is in that category. Mme Antoine Mari is the closest to a moderate-sized tea that I've encountered but even that is building in our garden. Anita

My house faces roughly N/W, in the morning, as the sun comes up over the back of the house, the house itself, and the porch, shades part of the front yard. If you look at my graphed drawing, the area that has Kramer's Supreme camellia, ie about 5-6 feet out from the porch, is shaded until noon, during the summer. At around noon or 1 pm, the sun comes up over the house and the shadow moves back. So roughly, from about 1pm to 6 pm, there is no shade in the front yard. The exception being the area right next to the garage that has Marie Bracey Camellia. Rita Sammons gets sun, but Marie Bracey gets very little due the the garage shade. >> early HTs for your front yard, preferably Vintage Type 1, 2 or 3. Sherry. I have no idea what a Vintage Type 1, 2 or 3 is. :) :) Do you mean the growth habit types Vintage Gardens list ( http://www.vintagegardens.com/classhabits/HT.gif ) ? I'm not sure where to find more information on early HT to see what I like. I have La France cl., that's about all I know. :) If that's true,... then I really like stuff like Mrs. E. G. Hill, Hermann Lindecke, Jean Cote, Reichsprasident von Hindenberg, Reynolds Hole, Surville :) Sherry, do you have any photos of your trained E Veyrat? :) Ingrid : I like Rosette Delizy... but the coloring is a little too red-yellow for me. I'd prefer red-cream or pink-yellow, etc.. if that makes sense. Berndoodle - I'm so new, I don't know how nepeta looks later in the season, so I guess I'll find out! Right now I'm trying one or two each of a few different perennial ground cover plants to see which can tolerate the situation best. and then I'll try repeating them all along the sides of the beds and sidewalks interspersed with other companion plants and short groundcover-like roses. Or at least that's the plan. I'm starting to get the hang of watering the lavender properly and which varieties I like better, but I'll probably wait until next year to get more of any sort of repeating ground cover like this. I want to make sure it does well all year, like you said, and that I like it all year. re: Rita Sammons, that's great! That basically was what my plan was, to keep Rita at about 4-5 feet wide. So that the camellia behind it is taller, and then something short and soft at Rita's feet. I thought it would be cute in the front on the walkway, too. I've always thought of Cecile Brunner and it's babies as something you pop the flowers off and put in your hair for fun. elemire - It's probably a smaller arbor, I haven't bought one yet, but around 4-5 feet wide, I'm guessing. So... are you saying I should remove/move Gloire de Dijon and just have one rose (sombrieul) climb up over the arbor. Will it cover both sides...? (assuming I have something smaller at the feet anyway...) ----------- UPDATED DEEP AND MEANINGFUL THOUGHTS: :) :) I'm inclined not to get a large tea at all. Instead... I'm thinking about doing: ---- Putting Grandmother's hat in the 7-9 foot corner in the backyard with the arbor in front of it. It could get as tall as it liked here and that would be just charming. The arbor has Sombrieul and Gloire de Dijon on it. I may have to move those two back just a tiny bit to give Grandmother's Hat some more space. But if Grandmother's Hat is beautiful most of the year and has a lovely bush shape,... then it seems pretty perfect for me. I already own it and I know I love the smell and bloom look. Not sure whether I should remove the tiny Gloire de Dijon band... it might be too hard to train with Sombrieul on a small/medium-ish arbor. ---- inclined to see if the HOA will let me remove one of the western redbud trees so that I can have less eventual shade in the front. I'm wondering whether I could put it on that strip of land on the other side of the garage (which currently has nothing). But I'd have to add some irrigation there...? ---- finding out what camellias are low and tolerate both sun and shade and considering planting a couple pink ones as the lining of the porch (inbetween the two Madame Alfred Carriere). That would give me a different shape than all the roses and would give me blooming in winter. ---- for along the border of the two properties, considering adding some more agapanthus, or just researching more evergreen low-ish shrubs and see what I like there. Not a hard line, but some soft groups of them along the property line. Not truly evergreen, but I suppose I could try a daylily, too? ------------ for the "A" spot, I'm considering: Curious about what a mature bush looks like, whether it tolerates pruning and whether it holds onto spent blooms poorly. I'm asking AntiqueRoseEmporium about what they think the size would be on the mature bush. I like that it blooms in winter sometimes, too. color change. (YAY!) ~~~~~ Archduke Charles. again, I'm asking AntiqueRoseEmporium about what they think the size would be on the mature bush. I'd love to see more photos of the mature bush and what it looks like post\-flush, etc. I've heard several accounts of it doing well in heat and drought. color change. (YAY!) ~~~~~ Bermuda's Kathleen Really not sure on the size of this one. I'm guessing about the same as Archduke and General. Perpetual blooming, probably. color change. (YAY!) ~~~~~ Ghislaine de Féligonde (or a Noisette or Cornelia or Felicia) If I need to be concerned about shade tolerance, then I was thinking about going with one of these. I liked that Ghislaine de Féligonde has the color changing aspect. It's fragrant and isn't covered in thorns. It can apparently take hard pruning, too, in case it gets out of control. I already have a Felicia that I was trying out. I'm also partial to older\-style Noisettes (like Champney's Pink Cluster and Narrow Water) in pale pink since I'm from Charleston and I like the style anyway. Or I could go with the Lavender Pink Noisette that I already have. \-\-\-\-\-\-\-OTHERS\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\- ~~~~~ Tipsy Imperial Concubine plan to shove her in a very pretty pot. ;) ~~~~~ molieux maybe get a couple so that there can be some balance of yellow. ... I'm hoping if I can work some yellow and white companion plants in, then the yellow won't be too much. Or I could put it in the backyard somewhere where I already have a couple Jude the Obscures and some yellow daisies. ~~~~~ SdlM somewhere in the back. I have a couple spots for a medium rose. :) ~~~~~ Yves Piaget smaller footprint, I have a couple spots I could fit her. ~~~~~ Mme. Berard The idea with this would be to basically let Mme Berard trail over a short decorative fence. Would Mme. Berard work for this? I already have Mme Berard, but I could just leave it in the back climbing the house as it is. ~~~~~ if I get any climbing tea, I'll have it climb up the back of my house where I can appreciate it, but won't have to deal with cleanup. ~~~~~ I still have for placing (already own, but are in the pot ghetto): Lavender Lassie Lavender Pink Noisette Maman Cochet cl Alchemist Eden cl Madame Joseph Bonnaire Eventually I wanted to get a pergola, so some of the climbers, whatever I don't find other places for, could go there. Mme Joseph Bonnaire is probably a normal HT size, so that won't be too hard to find a spot for. I have a couple more small climber positions, too. ~~~~~ and then for mini and front\-of\-bed roses, I was considering: Kosters, Pink Rosette, Sweet Chariot, The Faun, Pomponella, Gruss an Aachen (I already have Compassionate Friend and Duftendes Weisskirchen)

I have grown angelonia for years. It is heat and drought tolerant [so important in Texas!] but to my knowledge, it doesn't reseed. You might try larkspur - that comes up every spring [already have some popping up] and is lovely in purples, pinks, whites. Don't know how long it takes to grow angelonia from seed - you might ask that question on the seed or annual forum. I personally like the dark purple the best - white is also nice. The pink is pretty but doesn't show up quite as well as the purple. Throw some zinnia seeds among your roses.......they grow fast and provide lots of color. I had them reseed for 2 extra years. I just bought an Archduke Charles from Chamblees. Love the different colors in the bloom. Another favorite is Mme. Berkeley - just bought 3 more of them. My bush has a lovely shape and when it is covered in those pale pink blooms, it is beautiful. You can find this in the sale bin there. I also love Mrs. BR Cant - a real beauty! I am looking forward to trying the new Austins Bascobel and The Lark Ascending this year. I got Fighting Temerarie last year - the bush is strong and it bloomed a bit but looking forward to a better performance this year. My Golden Celebration has languished in a very sunny spot for years without a lot of growth or bloom. I am going to really try to kick it into gear this year with composted manure mulch and fertilizer and extra coddling. I got a Graham Thomas quite some years ago - it rarely bloomed but the bush was gorgeous. Tried everything on it. Chamblees told me to give it Carl Pool BR 61 fertilizer and that jump started it. I look forward to it blooming well again this year [though I don't see why it was rated #1 rose]. Have fun planting! Judith