All depends on what pest you're trying to control. While some organic pesticides are "somewhat" broad spectrum, they pretty much target a particular pest or type of pest -- e.g. BT for caterpillars.

Kevin

Hi Kevin...so I take it that there isn't an organic broad spectrum spray for the veggie garden? I currently am not organic but want to start this coming gardening season. Also I have a variety of dwarf fruit trees that I want to go organic with. If what you say is true then one will have to have a spray for each bug and problem that comes down the pike.

What to spry, if necessary, depends on what problem you might have. Is it am insect pest? Which? Do they chew leves? Then maybe Bacillus thuringiensis - Kurstaki early on might be helpful. Spider mites or Aphids? An Insecticidal Soap may be what is needed. Maybe a Dormant Oil spray is what is needed, or possibly a lime/sulfur spray for some disease organisms.
There is no single material that will solve every problem. As woohooman stated, "All depends on what you zre tgrying to control."

Hi Folks...thanks for the tips on organic spray. Can you recommend a couple of good places that sell what I need for spray.

Dormant oil spray for fruit trees is usually available at any nursery or farm store.

For a general purpose insecticide soap that kills aphids, spider mites, and similar stuff, I usually start off with Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap, diluted to a tablespoon per qt. That I get at the grocery store. If that don't get 'em, I move onto Safer Insecticide Soap - that has Pyrethrum and that you can get as well at most nurseries.

If there is one general pesticide you can use, try one containing Pyrethrum. There are several out there.

oldmainer:

Yep. Although there are a couple of semi-broad pesticides that are no brainers like BT, neem oil, and pyrethrins to have around, it all depends on what you're growing and what pests attack those plants.

To go organic(which, I myself, am far from getting to Xanadu), takes a concerted effort of Integrated Pest Management and organic remedies.

Here's what I've learned --

1) Plant plants to attract predatory insects because buying predatory insects to only see them in your garden for a few days and then move onto the neighbors becomes costly and frustrating.

2) Pests tend to attack unhealthy plants. So, keep your soil healthy. Also, compost teas and worm castings have supposedly shown to have good effects on deterring pests.

3) BT, neem oil, spinosad(bad for bees), insecticidal soaps(homemade or commercial), and pyrethrins are all OMRI listed and pretty effective for MOST veggie pests.

4) When it comes to powdery mildew and other fungal problems, it's best to nip it in the bud BEFORE you see symptoms. So, when it STARTS getting hot and HUMID, start treating plants that are susceptible with acceptable fungicides such as baking soda solution, milk solution, neem oil, sulfur dust/spray, or copper spray. Note: The neem, sulfur, and copper are also good for mites.

5) Most of what I mentioned can be bought at your local big box store like Home Depot, Lowe's and Walmart, but I had to go to local nurseries to get things like the sulfur and copper. Also, if you like saving a buck like I do, I like to buy in bulk, so online might suit you better for larger bottles.

6) Keep asking questions in this forum -- people like kimmsr, gardengalPNW, rhizo, ken adrian, jean001 and the many others I haven't mentioned are full of info to get you on the right track.

They make it sound easy -- I have found out that it isn't. It might be that I might be going half-ass about my organic endeavors. Or, it might be that with my limited space to grow those "beneficial" plants to attract the good bugs along with the fact that pests are a year-round problem here where I am, makes the organic route very trying.

Anywho... Good luck. :)

Kevin

People that need to rely on insecticides really need to look closely at the soil they have and work on making that into a good healthy soil. Plants growing in good healthy soils are less susceptible to insect pests and plant diseases then plants growing in soils that do not have balanced nutrient levels.
Plants that are routinely sprayed with insecticdes are more susceptible to being harmed by insect pests because the many of the insecticides are very broad spectrum and harm the beneficials and predators as well. Then many gardens to not have plants that do a good job of attracting beneficial insects, ie pollen producing plants of the right type (flat blossoms such as Queen Annes Lace has), native plants which many consider "weeds".
An organic gardener/farmer would be more concerned that the environment around them is in balance then about killing off a few "bugs" especially if they were not doing much harm.

I remember reading that when Sir Alford Howard "retired" and returned to England, he had some apple trees that had been neglected badly ...about 1934. It read like he manured or something the trees and in about 3 years he was picking fine fruits. To me that reads kind of like a fairy tale...as far as raising fruit in the Eastern US would be.

oldmainer you need to readjust from a chemical mind set to an organic mind set. I've had an organic garden since 2002 and have only sprayed anything to see what would happen. I've sprayed with molasses, milk, and soap. I firmly believe molasses and/or milk are helpful because they will feed the bacteria and fungi living on the outside of the plants. Soap I'm not certain about but people I trust tell me it helps with infestations of certain bugs or diseases.

Before turning to organics I used to have infestations of aphids, thrips, spider mites, and scale. Haven't seen any since 2002. I have seen tomato hornworms...once, about 5 years ago. I sprayed them with BT Worm Killer. BT is a disease that causes immediate paralysis in caterpillars and some other larvae. I gotta say it was very satisfying to see these finger-sized caterpillars freeze in space.

This goes to woohooman's point number 2. We have a man in San Antonio who used to perform soil experiments. He demonstrated to me the importance of good soil with this test. He grew three plants (gardenias???) in three pots in his greenhouse. One plant had Walmart generic soil. The other two had the same soil with small percentages of compost (10%) and some rock dusts he was trying. The three plants were about 10 inches tall and the canopies were all touching each other. Only one plant had aphids and it was covered with them. The aphids ignored the other plants even though they were in direct contact. To me that was incredible testimony to the importance of soil health.

To woohooman's point number 1...there is a plant called butterfly weed that will attract so many aphids you can hardly see the plant. When you get large populations of prey, then the predators will come in. The predators will stay as long as the population of prey sustains them. If you spray to kill the prey, that also kills the predators. Because you need food for any species to come in, the aphids will return to the garden first and not attract more predators until the aphid population is large enough. People plant the butterfly weed some distance away from the garden. The plant is called butterfly weed because it attracts butterflies (not that great) and because it really looks like a weed.

wayne_5: it is important to know that traditionally the word manure means anything that gets put on the soil to amend it. Today we use it differently than they did have back then. Back then they would have used the word dung to refer to what we now call manure. So they might have "manured" the soil with dung, compost, ammonium sulfate, sulfur, or other chemical fertilizers.

I am going to try companion planting this year. I know this is controversial. I want to find the white allysum that attracts the beneficial wasp. Basil attracted a few beneficals this last year. So Much to learn!! I take classes when ever I can at any agricultural center within an hour of my place. I learned alot last year and I met alot of cool people.

dchall:

Are the same predators that go after aphids the same for whiteflies. Also, why would I want to attract MORE butterflies?? I already have problems with hornworms and cabbage loopers.

Kevin

Use either the plant-based homemade formula or petroleum- based commercial products to control harmful pests. You can use Oil spray; it cut off the oxygen supply of young insect and also prevent insect eggs from emerging.

Franklin, Have you found any help or hope here? didn't think so.

I have a similar problem. There are tomatos that sprouted in garden bed via manure that was used to amend the soil. They grew beautifully and then, BOOM, spots on the leaves...then holes in the leaves and then the tomatos themselves. Needless to say they perished and I aws only able to salvage about 24 of those cherry tomatos.

Guess what? The same is happening to my heirloom purple tomatos. I've laways been against spraying but I don't think I have a choice. The size of the worms in about half the fruit are just incredible!! HELP!!!

Greenpastures:

Firstly, volunteer tomatoes, from my experience, don't do all that well anyhow, but a few maters is a few maters.

Secondly, Spray with BT diligently. it's not harmful at all -- it's just a bacterium that is harmful to butterfly/moth larvae. I've had GREAT success with it.

You can always try the most "organic" method which is companion planting -- grow umbrella flowering plants such as carrots, parsley, cilantro, dill, allysum et al to attract parasitic wasps that lay eggs into the worms and kills them.

I have found spraying with BT the best way to control them with my limited space.

Kevin

This post was edited by woohooman on Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 23:22

Anybody mention Surround yet? I just woke up :)

Kevin, not all butterflies are harmful and need erradication, many are also pollinators and are as important as the bees in food production. Overuse of any insecticide, organic or synthetic, is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Insect pest control is much more involved then simply spraying some poison around and it starts with the soil your plants are growing in. Most all insecticides, including many "organic" ones, are very broad spectrum and will kill off beneficials as well as the bad ones.

michael, Surround MIGHT be helpful if you have just a few small trees.

kimmsr:

Tell me how it's done then. In Michigan, where the ground freezes, you probably kill off a lot of the grubs, but I just tilled an area that I've been amending for five years and had my summer veggies. I found at least 6 dozen grubs in a 9x13 area.

Are there ANY butterflies or bees or ants RIGHT NOW in Michigan that you see? Well, there's plenty where I'm at. We just had a week of 80 degree days.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I totally believe you. I just think that people in the north don't realize how much of a year-round pest problem people from more southern latitudes have to deal with.

By the way, the only pesticides I use are BT, neem oil, Ivory soap mixtures, sulfur dust, and DE. I did try some spinosid this past summer though.

Kevin

The Neem oil products, Insecticidal Soaps, Sulfur dusts, and most of the plant based insecticides (pyrethrin, rotenone, etc.) are broad spectrum poisons that can, when used improperly, cause as much or more harm as the synthetic pesticides. If the soil your plants are growing in is a good healthy soil so the plants grow up strong and healthy they will be less attractive to the insect pests reducing your need to spray poisons around. If in addition you create an insectuary, a garden with a wide variety of flowering plants, that is attractive to the predators they will be there to help you maintain control of the pests.
Growing organically is much more involved then simply using certain "fertilizers" and insect sprays (still poisons) and not using "chemicals" (synthetic materials) because most of the organic materials people do use are chemicals.

Kimmsr:

How large of an area would be needed to create an insectuary that would support a small backyard. Also, can ii be built off to the side/away from where I grow my veggies? How far away?

Also, can you give me a list for some no brainer IPM plants that attract the beneficials to keep the populations of whiteflies, aphids, caterpillars/worms, earwigs, mites et al at an acceptable level?

Kevin