Can you use a garden fork to mix in the amendments? That's what I do, anyway.
-O (who has never tilled)

I agree. Depending on how "loose" your soil is you might even be able to use a iron rake. I mulch my raised beds with straw, anywheres from 2-6 or 8" thick, pull back, add amendments (manure)and recover. If adding a fine prill or dust type amendment...should apply to surface before a rain.

Why do you think you need to add those things?

Kimmsr,
I was going to add the cornmeal to help combat blight. Before I add sulfur, I will get a soil test. I guess I should clarify that I may need to add amendments based on a test. I was just wondering how they would get to the soil. The soils where I live are very high alkaline and the ph is above 7 obviously. How high, only a soil test will tell. Small amounts of sulfur are recommended here as a general rule of thumb. If such amendments are needed, will the no till method get them where they need to be fast enough to be of benefit during the growing season.

Start with that soil test from the Texas A & M Cooperative Extension Service office nearest you and see what they have to say. Even though I am a no till gardener my soil still gets tilled whenever I plant something since you can't put something in the soil without some digging, and there are clay soil that require you to till in the first "layer" of organic matter because that soil simply will not interact with what is plunked down on it.
Have you taken a good, in depth look at your soil yet? Try these tests to see what you really have;

1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fillting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it it for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. Your primary concern is the OM level and yours may be pretty good.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your soil smell like. Pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

Criester, lemme give ya jus one more angle to ponder. I been growin organicly now for the last 5 years, an i stopped tilling, an began the straw mulch/raised bed methods 4 years ago. This year, i tilled for the first time, in 3 years, an i truly think the Garden benefited from the tilling action, and the Mixing up of all OM previously applied in previous years. I use a simple garden fork, most of the time, to prepare a bed, but once in 3 years aint gonna hurt nothin, an here's an Aspect i learned from other postings, here at GW, i intend to apply, in the future. I hate hurtin a earthworm, an to me, if i didnt know i'd be doin such, i'd till at will.... therefore...

Ponder waiting until your coldest times, because the worms are not gonna be near the surface, then...an tilling action should be negligible to Their Health. Additionnally, this is the very best time to expose pest life, overwintering .

A Good Question posed, an another angle to Consider...)))
Best Wishes...)))

Kimmsr said,
Start with that soil test from the Texas A & M Cooperative Extension Service office nearest you and see what they have to say.

KIMMSR, STAY OUT OF THIS!

Just kidding. Stay in all you want. You have no way of knowing that TAMU has a horrible record of soil testing down here. Last year they admitted that they have never done their testing properly and were changing the way they would do it in the future. Still I don't think they have a clue up there.

A much better lab, especially if you are organic, is the Texas Plant and Soil Lab. They test soil AND plant uptake. Furthermore, their soil tests actually correlate to plant uptake tests. That's something I have never heard of. The problem with most soil tests is they dissolve the entire soil sample in hydrochloric acid to determine the mineral content. Clearly plants don't have that luxury. They have to rely on weak acids, specifically carbonic acid, as well as the humic acids, to dissolve minerals. Texas Plant and Soil Lab tests mimic what the plants actually see in the soil. Thus there is a huge difference between what "normal" soil tests show versus what Texas Plant and Soil Lab tests show. Most soil tests show all mineral content while Texas Plant and Soil Lab tests show you what is actually available to the plants.

Moving on to no-till, I really don't have time tonight to rant and rave about tilling, digging, double digging, forking, lifting, spading, and all the other euphemisms for plowing your soil. About all I can say at this hour is that when you do that, you are killing the beneficial fungi that have taken years (hopefully) to grow to a few inches long. Once you chew them up with the tiller, they have to start all over. If you leave them alone, they will grow to yards long and will provide huge benefits in water savings as well as transferring organic materials all around in the soil.

Think about all the beasts God put on the land. Most of them have feet which distribute their weight at about 200 pounds per square foot on top of the soil. They don't dig with those feet, they push down. Nature did not select pigs to cover the great plains of the world, she selected cattle, antelope, goats, etc. Go with Nature's flow and don't till.

In the mean time, you can read about the folly of plowing for free on the Internet. I don't have the link but search for "The Ploughman's Folly." The entire book is available.

Here's the link to Ploughman's Folly

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/flknreh/

Dave,thanks for the link.
I haven't found no-till to be as miraculous as others claim,although it certainly "rings true" at some level.My suspicion and hope being its eventual practice after some arduous preparation.

One thing I forgot to mention is I do not have a raised bed system in place. Last year, I just did some sheet composting on top of the native clay. Some areas really improved from worm action. Will the microherd and worms carry things like greensand or lava sand down into the native soil? I know Howard Garrett aka The Dirt Doctor recommends shallow tilling in of amendments. My soil has a lot of clay and is very hard to work.

The soil test is only as good as the lab tht does it, I will admit, but it is useful in the right context, as a base of knowledge of what your soil was at the time of the test and a means of direction to go. There are people that test their soil several times a year and that is unnecessary since you only need a base test once every 5 years after that base test to be sure what you are doing is what you really want to be doing. Taken in conjunction with those other tests I outlined, which can and should be done several times during the growing season, that information will tell you whether you are doing the right thing. Always remember that the soil is where organic growing starts.

My clay soil started getting better when I went to 4 foot wide permanant passive beds. I tilled the whole garden the first year and then only the beds the second year, This year i don't have to till at all. This has allowed me to concentrate my fall soil ammendments into just the bed areas. To keep weeds down in the pathes I use cardboard.

Kimmsr, sorry for ragging on you before. It could have been anyone.

Here's an argument for lots of soil and plant testing. The Texas Plant and Soil Lab has been involved in developing a fertilizer plan for watermelons and pecans. Watermelons are thought to be a seasonal plant and pecans are thought to bear nuts every other year. By testing monthly both the soil and the plants, and then tuning in on more frequent testing, Texas Plant and Soil Labs has developed a plan that allows watermelon to bear fruit 12 months a year (the same plant). They have also discovered why pecans don't normally bear nuts every year and have been able to correct it. Economically these tests were worth their weight in gold to producers.

In the Texas Panhandle there are some no-till cotton producers. They are also organic but the point is the no-till methods and the results. These farmers have found their soil tests come out identical with the soils from chemical and plowed cotton. What the soil tests don't test is biology. When you look at the biology of the soil, they find that there are miles of fungi attached to the roots of the no-till plants. These fungi have allowed the farmers to completely discontinue watering their crop. When it rains the soil (and fungi) soak up the rain and hold on to it until the plants need it. During the wet years both cotton crops are about equal. During the dry years the no-till cotton produces a little less. However, the no-till farmers don't buy any water, don't have any of those long irrigation pipes, no irrigation pumps (or fuel), no pipe maintenance, no equipment insurance, etc. The bottom line is the no-till farmers are making a killing simply because they don't have all the expenses the tiller farmers have.

If you till, you lose all those fungi and their ability to hold water and deliver nutrients to the plants.

Great information, Dchall. And about those worms...the soil disturbance harms THEIR system of tunnels, too. That's how they get their work done. If you don't till, but allow the worms to do your work for you, they will incorporate soil additives into the soil for you, all day and every day. If you continue to till or plow, you disturb their permanent tunnels, cocoons, etc.

I have always only tilled lawn/prairie that I am converting to garden, never tilled anywhere more than once. Have also made 4 raised lasagna beds with no tilling at all. Otherwise I just layer things on top and miraculously the soil improves up and down. When you grow plants (think growing roots) and when you pull them out you are doing a little soil mixing. The worms, bugs, wind, and rain mix it up, etc. All I can say is I don't stir up the soil much personally, but it has changed up and down when I do look at it, so it seems to mix itself well. I think it would be safe to assume that amendments would get mixed in, too.

Someone said it doesn't hurt anything much to till, but it wrecks the air and water channels, and evidently this fungi I didn't even know about. Not to mention chopping up the worms, although that doesn't always kill them. Anyway, I am lazy and love the no-till method. I have a heavy clay soil and layers of manure, leaves, compost, etc. have done a lot for it in just a few years. And at my previous home I had tilth to die for! Could just pull dandelions straight out without digging most of the time. When I moved I thought hard about digging up the whole garden and taking it with me, and telling the buyers that we had had an inground pool removed there . . .

Marcia

David (dchall), the Ploughman's Folly has proven to be a Wonderfull read, it's something i intend to keep re-reading, thru Time. TY very much for linking it.

I find it not only to be informational, but truly...Motivational. Readin a chapter or 2 gets me in the mood...lol...to get goin an chop up some OM to apply to the Growing areas...)))

This read also explains things i witnessed this year, for the first time. All my life, butterpeas have given one good flush of podset, an therefore pickin, then dwindled off, RE: further aspirations. I used a TroyBuilt Horse this spring, to incorporate all the OM i've been addin for 4 years, simply as mulch. This year, first time in my experience, the butterpeas set pods as normal, i picked em twice, in the 2 pickings, i got about 8 gallons, unshelled. But unlike previous times, these plants did not dwindle. In spite of moderate to heavy Mexican Bean Beetle predation, they threw out a whole new set of Foilage , and re-bloomed. It took about a month for this second Flush of bloom to fill pods, but on this second Flush, i easily picked 18 gallons (unshelled). I dont know if time left is sufficient, before frost hits, but Right Now, these plants are in a THIRD major bloom cycle...despite the ravage of MBB(which now has ended it's major repro time)the plants seem to be sayin...we aint ready to die, our roots are strong an well fed.

I think Mr. Faulkner said as much, himself, in this read. i'd highly endorse an urge reading this Material, to gain a better understanding of capillary action in soil, and the natural ways that OM feeds it, and the actions of CO2/carbonic acid.What i REALLY like is how Mr. Faulkner wrote things in a simple way, a way that most readers could understand, an learn to apply. He didnt talk over the reader's head, he tried to put things in a clear, well-defined way.

I appreciate, again...the link, David...))) Great read, Wonderful personal experiences and ideas relayed by Mr. Faulkner. Ty...)))

Criester, i think if you will read this link(it'll take some time...)))...most of your questions will be answered to your continued betterment. It is a Fine Question you asked...)))

Gimme3, if you liked that, you would love to listen to K Chandler talk about his soil testing business. Instead of using hydrochloric acid to test the soil, K uses carbonic acid, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE PLANTS USE. His tests actually tell you what is available to the plant, not everything that is available and unavailable, too. By testing both the plant and the soil, he has discovered why pecans only bear nuts once every other year, and why squash and similar plants only bear once a year. He has clients harvesting full pecan crops every year and growing watermelons year round. Very interesting.

OK - so how long will it take to get better soil (read that - soil that is less than rock hard) with a no-till method? I have a back yard that is solid clay, and the soil has huge cracks and dying grass and plants. The water runs off, or only wets the first inch or so. We are thinking about adding a ton of ammendments, tilling the whole thing under, and starting from scratch. I know this will kill the fungus, but there is really no other way to rescue this yard. I have two dogs and three kids - mulching it for a few years is NOT an option! Any ideas will be greatly appreciated, as I am NOT looking forward to the job ahead!

Thanks much -
Kathy

Kathy:
Raised beds, raised beds, raised beds. You won't have to till a thing. Just put them in and fill with soil and lots of organic matter, right on top of your clay, which will then improve on its own. Calif clay is usually very good soil with a little tending.
-O

For the beds, Yes, I have many raised beds. But what advice can you give me about adding organic matter to a lawn area without tilling? I have been trying to add organic matter for two years, but the yard is SO hard with packed clay - cracked and rock hard soil with no worms - that there has been no change. DH and I are thinking about getting a truckload of compost and tilling it into the soil ( hopefully we will be able to - the soil is literally cement hard) and then planting grass and plants. The surrounding raised beds - all made in the lasagna style - are doing fantastically. But we have three kids and two dogs - we need a yard and a place for them to play. (All our land is in the back of our house. The front is tiny and not a place for three active kids). Can anyone offer any other solutions? I really don't want to till, biut see no other short term option.

Thanks, Kathy

Kathy:
There was some discussion elsewhere around here somewhere recently about that - I think it is a thread called If You Build It Worms Will Come or something like that, where solutions were put forward for situations like your lawn.
-O

kathyp - A lot of people on the lawn care forum core aerate, followed by topdressing with 1/3" of compost. The aeration will releive your compaction and the holes allow some of the compost to work into the soil more quickly than topdressing alone. You want to do this when your lawn is actively growing so it can repair itself from the aeration.

Kathy,

Dig some holes in your yard and see if you have earthworms. If not, you don't have much life down there to disturb and your soil might take years to self-till. I'd till in the amendments and plant your lawn. Your lawn will grow great. The only downside will be the scorn you face if you tell people on this forum.

If you see a lot of earthworms, then you might go with the core aerating top-dress with compost route. I've been doing that with my hard clay soil here in the desert, and am hoping to see earthworms someday. My lawn does grow very well however.

Yeah - that's what I thought. I have very few worms - I dug in 20 different places, and I found 1. Even though it is taboo on this forum, we may rent a tiller and till in amendments and compost and hope that we never need to do it again. We have been top dressing for three years ( home made compost - full of worms) with little to no results. In most places, the ammendments are still sitting on top - no movement whatsoever! Hopefully, I won't be banned for life - only until the grass grows! :-)

Thanks for the advice!

Kathy

Kathy,

while it is true that you may encounter some who will scoff at tilling under any circumstances, I will only scoff at you if you till your lawn every year ;-)

I too work with hard clay soil. I too have used raised beds filled with organic material to great success.

Having said that a raised bed isn't feasible for a lawn and some clay soils are known to be so dead that organic matter placed on top sits there for a long time.

Now, about this worm counting business, that is just absurd even though it is common advice. Earthworms regulate their temperature by burrowing to various levels in the soil. They also can't take any dryness. Earthworms in general prefer cool, moist temps and anytime your soil doesn't qualify as cool and moist the worms are lower in the soil than any digging is going to reveal making a worm count pointless.

Ok, enough about worm counting. When you have useless soil forget about soil life as you have none and contrary to the opinions of soil critter activists, soil life is very easily replaced when damaged. Soil critters breed faster than mosquitos so don't worry about them, they take care of themselves and have since the first plant sprouted on the planet after lightning struck and produced nitrogen.

They have survived meteor showers, floods and an ice age or more and can certainly survive a tilling.

If you have decent soil, don't till ever, just place organic material on the soil and let the critters take care of the rest.

If you have crap soil then tilling in organic material is one way to jump start the process. The only folly is becoming dependant upon the tiller which will only happen if you fail to incorporate organic material on top of the soil after the initial tilling.

My rule of thumb is make a raised bed. Where not feasible make a one time tilling to break up the soil and incorporate large amounts of organic material and thereafter put organic material on top, no tilling. Not no tilling because of microherd damage, no tilling because it is too much work and not necessary.

Kathy, try spreading brewed coffee grounds on your lawn before you go to the trouble of renting a tiller. Worms love them. I spread them throughout the garden beds and lawn to attract and feed worms.

Your lawn will be very bumpy after tilling. I'd still try the aerator before tilling.

For original poster, why is it you want to add sulfur and cornmeal anyway? I have never felt the slightest urge to do that. :-) Of course I am a long way from Texas and don't know your soil.

For Kathy - I would also think that tilling would make a very bumpy lawn. But if it is like compacted concrete then I suppose tilling is an option. Although I am a fan of raised beds, I guess you can't really cover your entire lawn with layers of leaves and manure and so on. Maybe you could do it in sections, one part at a time? Or till stuff in and then spread a little more to even it all out?

I would second the aerate and spread compost/coffee grounds/whatever method to be tried before tilling the lawn. But really, tilling is fine for certain purposes, people won't really get snooty about it! For gardens it is just that tilling seems pointless and a waste of energy to me and many others for most purposes. Lately I have been weeding my raised, never tilled gardens and except for some wood chips everything is all rotted together and some roots are into the 'under' part and the newly created soil looks GREAT.

Marcia

Thanks for all the advice. We are going to go the whole till/amendment route. As for bumpy, we plan on tilling one section at a time, and raking it smooth. Our yard currently has lower areas that turn into pockets of standing water/mud after any application of water, and "hills" that let everything run off. So a nice, gradual slope (very gradual!) is the plan. We are currently looking for a supplier of organic compost - not an easy task! But it will be well worth it!

Thanks again -

Kathy

Dchall_San_Antonio - I've always used TAMU for soil test and will continue to do so. If a soil is deficient in N and is correctly reported as such, why should I care about testing procedures? I shouldn't.

The reason the other lab is often suggested is because of their alignment with organic proponents, like yourself.

HmmmÂOrganic proponents on an Organic Message Board, imagine that if you will?

ceristerÂ

I can identify with your dilemma of gardening on clay, for I too have solid clay soil. I live on a solid clay hill that has mixed in gravel along with patches weeds donÂt even grow on. The first year I tried to till in the spot I wanted a garden in, but my brand new tiller wouldnÂt even break the surface. I had go find a farmer with a tiller on his tractor to break the clay. The first year only weeds grew in the spot along with Bermuda grass, I considered that progress. The second year I found out about organic gardening, went and got about six pickup truck loads of compost and tilled that in. I also learned about compost teas as well as other teas that I began to use. That year I grew some great vegetables on the spot along with plenty of weeds mixed in. Again, progress in my eyes from where I started. The next year I learned about mulching, that made the difference. Mulching over a layer of compost eliminated the need to till, and I havenÂt had to use the tiller since. I am not saying I wonÂt till again, but the link to "The PloughmanÂs Folley" motivated me to get a disc to pull behind my riding lawn tractor, the results are better than progress, I will call it success. I donÂt count worms; I count baskets of vegetables I bring in all summer and fall.

You have gotten some very good suggestions, and I too suggest you do whatever you feel good about, for nothing will change if you donÂt do something. I will say compost, compost tea, organic fertilizers, and mulch will, in the end will get you where you want to go. That has been the experience I have had in this hot Georgia sun, planting on this world famous rock hard red Georgia clay.

kathypÂ

When I moved here I didnÂt have a lawn, unless growing rocks count. As I said earlier, my tiller would not break the surface of the clay. What I did to the lawn is I started using compost tea on the area I wanted a lawn. My yard is a little over three acres or more, thus I made a lot of compost tea. I did some research and found very good information from Dchall and followed it. Today I have the thickest, greenest, fastest growing lawn on this end of the county. Let me say again, if you do use compost tea or any other tea or lawn amendments on your yard, you will have to cut your grass regularly and high. The teas are not a danger to children or pets and do work in a season. I have found that the clay gets softer under your feet and the grass, if you want to call it that, will spread without seeding. Did I mention my grass grows thick and very, very fast? I would suggest you look at the FAQ on lawn care before you grab that tiller. I know my arms and back is grateful for what I learned, the lawn, flowerbeds, and garden look great and give the results I have come to love and appreciate. That is my experience, am wishing you both success in your gardening adventureÂ

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