I quite agree, Novice, it could be.

I'll start a thread - we'll see what happens....

g'day novice,

feel free to visit us at our site we do it natural and organic.

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

By "this forum" do you mean Gardenweb or Organic Gardening?

If you mean Gardenweb, I feel that many forums that have a wide variety of subjects like Gardenweb tend to attract socializers and are taking a back seat to Twitter and Facebook and the like. It is commonplace on Gardenweb to see subject line to the effect 'I just want to show you my pictures of .... ' . Or someone posts a specific question and the response is an unrelated personal story. It is easier and quicker to sort out a correct answer from a flood of Google hits than to ask here.

I feel that Unhelpful Replies has a litany of comments that are applicable to both Gardenweb and Organic Gardening.

just by following this thread there seems to be a lot of anx' about some who seem like they are the critics and pass direct or indirect judgement on others (they commonly quote third party references or supply links to support their case) either how they do things or what they suggesed, instead of simply answering the question with no inferrence direct or otherwise to any other posters response.there are a number of topics that i won't even read, let alone respond to.

i try to simply answer the posted question without necessarily being flavoured by what others may have posted.

at the end of the day with the many replies people get they are still going to have to decide which suggested action might work best for them.

len

Its the politics I used to see a lot of talk of cover crops and teas other helpfully things to any gardener I could give a hoot what somebody who has never sat on tractor thinks about gmos or the evils of roundup lets talk about organic gardening lately I just come here for the laughs of all the misinformed people posting about things they know nothing of

jonas302 - I'm just wondering why you feel that someone who hasn't had physical contact with the seat of a tractor has no knowledge of GMO's or Roundup? I'll bet you that most of those who work at Monsanto have never been on one either.

I do agree with your misinformed people posting on the forums statement.

Greg
Southern Nevada

Agreed on that Greg but there job is doing research By the way I am no lover of Monsanto but I'm not scared either it gets real irritating when a apt dwelling dentist thinks they know all about farming and want to argue over it it is the problem with the forum

Now on a lot more interesting note tell us a little about your farm what do you have going on down south

Since this is a forum, maybe you could point out specific misinformation of which you are aware. That way we can debate whether it is misinfo or helpful or not relevant.

Well, jonas this is probably not the thread to discuss what I'm doing, but I'm more than happy to share that. I'll email you.

I agree, there's a lot of misinformation that comes-out in the forums. I guess that people feel they know the answers and want to contribute.

Greg
Southern Nevada

I check in occasionally, but I find it irritating and unhelpful that unless you have actually initiated a thread, there is no way of knowing which thread you may have posted to, or whether there has been a new response since then, nor is there any option to "go to first unread message" or the like. The forum is set up in a manner that isn't very user friendly; it's the only one I visit that lacks those amenities.

Also, sometimes you can post photos inline and sometimes you need to refer the reader to a link; that's confusing, too.

I would use GardenWeb more if it weren't for those issues.

To me Organic Gardening would be about the principles of building up the soil to healthy levels and raising garden crops with minimal unhealthy inputs....but not fanatical nitpicks or strident opinions that intimidate more gentle souls.

A parallel would be the Hot Topics forum. Goodness, the strident bellicosity can ...well keep one away from it.

Wired mag has declared the internet dead in its latest issue, a bit of hyperbole for sales, but the truth is this is an old-fashioned site to many and the mobile phone apps are taking away from all traditional internet venues. All these sorts of web fora are shrinking in hits and posts, not just GW.

Also, I think people DO search the forums & web for answers to their questions, a major reason why there is less traffic. There never was a database of so many gardening FAQs and plant-specific threads before this site and a handful of others. That's no longer the case and the GW threads are quite often on the 1st page of any google search i do for any particular gardening question.

I've debated whether I should post to this thread or not and in fact had composed and deleted a few replies.

I am not organic nor do I garden so the observation could be, and has been, made what the heck are you coming here for?! Valid point. Why do I come here? Well, I make compost. Many of the people who use my compost ask for information about gardening that I am not able to answer so I have been lurking here almost since I joined GW to try and learn "stuff". I have actually given the website address out to some but I don't know if they ever dropped in.

Where I get myself into trouble is when I see statements that are not quite correct (or downright incorrect) and I try to point out the error. My error with this train of thought was that I assumed accuracy was something strived for. It seems that the first and foremost criteria is to lambaste anything and everything non-organic regardless of reality. My second error was to try and point out grey areas in a black and white world. It seems organics is black or white and grey is not allowed for.

Now I'm not against strict organic procedures, in fact I applaud the effort and I truely believe organics is far superior. But, and there is always a but, I'm a realist. In order to feed the billions of people on this earth and the billions more that are coming, IMO, some kind of high-tech agriculture is necessary.

Having said all that, I am going to now try to just bite my tongue and let stuff go, it's easier.

Lloyd

Nice post Lloyd.

g'day lloyd,

organics not black and white if it where it may be easier, simple thing is we aim for no man made inputs of chemicals truth is in the end we may have to do a bit different, organic farmers use chemicals no good saying they don't and most likely they would head for that chemical first as they can't have crop failure or they go broke.

in this now garden we have issues we have never had before, apart from an unbeatable tropical fruit fly, this season all our brassica plants were decimated with grubs, by decimated i mean for all the seedling we planted we got a bit of broccolli (no excess to give away as before) and a couple very small cabbages no cauliflower, the cauliflower usually pretty much left alone as the bugs seemed to preffer all the others.

we still had cabbage moth flying around mid winter, yes it has been a mild winter, we have had them before but not with so much decimation. so we are resorting to using natural pyrethrum as health issues are impeding our ability to try and do grub safaris every morning also.

so no it is not black and white, and wayne it is about building a healthy nutrient rich medium, just it aint as simple as chalk and cheese, your efforts should be self satisfying no good trying to impress the critics.

obviously here is a need for chat but the forum is still going down as i see it, more so now as you come into your winter that is to be expeced that is a seasonal change.

in other forums they allow for editing your post at a later time, also for some reason on other sites seems easier to keep track of posts, i got involved in one about mosquito's and rain barrels about 3 - 4 months ago and have never seen it again, couldn't even find it on a search.

len

I have too much difficulty trying to figure out where the caps & punctuation are supposed to go in your posts, Len, but I'm enjoying following along with the posts I can read. Why make us work so hard at trying to figure out what you're offering says?

Al

oops - 'your', not you're. ;-)

OK, now that Al has opened the punctuation door, here's my two cents worth. I suspect that the ALL CAPS or no caps habit may be from younger participants [in a hurry, donchaknow] So that might be a good sign. But on the other hand, in the same way we don't let people waste their time/money on wrong/foolish composting/gardening methods/trends, is it kind to let them continue to post comments that are made almost incomprehensible by lack of punctuation? ..... I've found that when I'm not sure of punctuation, to just separate the thoughts with a few ....dots.... but please don't take offense, Len ... we love your posts .... really....not suggesting the 'struck by lightning....' punishment .... though it does sound like a composter's method...chopped to bits

But a book on the lighter side of grammar - EATS, SHOOTS AND LEAVES by Lynne Truss
....snip....(A self-professed "stickler," Truss recommends that anyone putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its"-as in "the dog chewed it's bone"-should be struck by lightning and chopped to bits.) Employing a chatty tone that ranges from pleasant rant to gentle lecture to bemused dismay, Truss dissects common errors that grammar mavens have long deplored (often, as she readily points out, in isolation) and makes elegant arguments for increased attention to punctuation correctness: "without it there is no reliable way of communicating meaning."

I have been in and out of this forum since its inception when one could even add a topic heading; I started the organic, vegetable and companion planting. The original concept (IMO) was for the exchange of experiences and reliable information sources.

My in and out cycles was reaction to the personal attacks and denial of some of my postings. Very few of my posts are unsupported by experience or a credible source.

The diversity of soils, zones and gardening philosophies makes any suggestion just a suggestion. What works for me may not work for someone else. The foundation principles are still meaningful.

There is a wealth of experience and generosity of information within this forum. I do enjoy a discussion or debate; including rebuttal. Many people easily find offense in a few posts and tend to ignore the thread. This is an open site with very little moderation over the years. Some of the small forum sites are strictly moderated.

This is not a professional site; it is filled with relative novices for the most part. I tend to like it that way, share the info and rewards if something works.

This can be a flexible site. You can add links and pictures although not always so simple for many. Many of the links a a good read, some of the pictures not so easy to make out. The search function is nice and ability to sort (subject/forum) an effective bonus.

I do enjoy the diversity of experience in the GW. There are a few weeds and to many still relying on the toxic approaches. My leaning is towards the healthy soil and heirloom varieties as the right direction.

Technology is wonderful if for the better versus profit and market control. Mother Nature is the best teacher and we the students.

Thx wayne

The main problem with internet forums in general, IME, is that many if not most people are very thin-skinned. Disagreement is taken as an assault or insult rather than an opportunity to stretch the mind or transfer of potentially useful information.

Not to pick on you, Greg (simply because you are the OP of this thread) but a case in point is when for some reason you effectively ridiculed me on a thread about a brassica plant. I surmised that it was a napus member, and reminded that terms such as 'cabbage', 'kale', etc are semantic. What confused me was not that you might disagree with my assessment but that you would need to resort to a kind of round-about bullying in the matter. You seem too intelligent and educated in horticulture for that response. By way of indirect defense of yourself and others, one could probably find threads where I have been equally heavy-handed.

So maybe we all need to ask ourselves: "why do I get so ruffled sometimes?". Over such minor things. Why do we get narrow-minded?

Funny! I rarely check in here & of course I noticed this topic right away.

I can't speak for anyone else, I visit G'web daily, however, it's the FL Gardening forum that keeps me interested these days. I still garden organically, but I feel like there's little that's new or relevant to me on the other forums. I used to spend all my time on OG & the Soil & Compost forums, along w/ Sustaining Our Environment(been visiting this site since '95), but never seem to notice fresh topics any more; IOW, same old, same old...

Seems like there is fairly good activity on the various regional forums - perhaps the specialties might just become obsolete? Saturation?

FWIW, I stopped getting OG magazine a number of years ago & don't really miss it - for the same reasons I mentioned above.

If you want to see lots of activity (& get your blood pressure up), check out the Hot Topics forum. I peek in there every once in awhile, but it seems like the same old arguments just go 'round & 'round & I'm no longer interested in argument; been there, done that!

HT is tiresome these days. Politics in general is tiresome, and that is about all that gets discussed there anymore.

i think i have said this before, my experience online for quiet sometime now is tha critics of any sort even if seemingly off handed or in jest add to the downfall of groups and forums, seen it many times and it is evident in these forums.

the safest way to oppose is simply post your own idea or opinion with no targetting of any other person. same as being a grammar teacher this is a world we live in not an exclusive suburb or area, many out thee may not be as educated as others or may be trying to communicate using some translation program.

my nams is still len with or without Len.

i thought long and hard before i responded, i was just going to let the critics have it to themselves, as soon enough they may not have it either when patronage drops off enough.

so as this thread closes we are still where we were in the beginning, critics rule. no they haven't gotten to me like, i said i've been around a long time my skin is a whole lot thicker than that.

would like new comers and others to know that we aren't all critics. some of us are genuinely interested in helping.

len

So then I'll ask the question len;

Is your idea of an 'ideal' forum a group of like minded people who post inaccuracies and falsehoods with no other person challenging said inaccuracies or falsehoods?

Lloyd

P.S. I know, I know, I should just bite my tongue.

Thanks to Greg for this starting this intriguing post. The posts have been thoughtful and interesting, though I must admit to being annoyed by the grammar cops. In truth, I found such comments hurtful without a point.

Anyway, I think part of the problem with the forums is that they have been diluted by so many different topics. Some of the categories are bordering on silly, and many of them surely redundant. I recall that, some time ago, someone tried to get a new forum listing for 'Plants with Yellow Foliage'. Or was it red?

I learn something each and every time I visit the Organic Gardening Forum, and I thank you all for being so willing to share your experience and knowledge.

lloyd,

you have evidence of some person posting falsehoods??

for me i jsut simply tell my story adn leave it up to the poster to determine who they may trust, as having online witch hunts does no good as one snipes from the guranteed curtian of anonimity, i for one can be no more open than provide a web page so people might ascertain to some degree my sense of character.

you have an issue with someone i would suggest you honorably deal with that someone in another way, not in public. i made my opinion on that known. for me i leave well enough alone. there are certain topics i won't even read, just not worth it.

and after all at the end of the day we are all trying to grow something in dirt mostly.

len

and i sign off always

It seems to me that the world has such a range and there are so many ways to raise crops that it would be hard to pin anything down as definite misinformation.

Someone might say, and many have: the only way to control insect pests of a crop is too wage constant war against them. I happen to think that idea is wrong-headed - largely a waste of time and resources. Is either side of that debate dead wrong? Plenty of examples from real practice can be found that seemingly support either.

i realy can't understand what is being said about deception and lies etc.,. the average gardener would have nothing to gain but lose face, sure if someone comes along with a commercial web site then tries to bag something in favour of their service or product then maybe but just maybe, i mean we all are blessed enough to not deal with the person, that is ignore them or don't buy their product whatever. too easy hey?

not worth getting agro' about that's for sure.

as for me i think it is still on my front page what i recommend works for me it may work for you? and generally i don't talk about things i haven't done.

len

Well, since you asked, i stopped spending time here cuz i got tired of folks bickering and sniping...i don't mind reasonable discussions, but i got my arse bit more than once and just moved on...

But if you don't like the ads, just download the Firefox browser, free @ mozilla.com...it blocks everything, and now has a feature that shows you how many tracking/ad/ cookie attempts you're repelling, calls em out by name.

Classic example, read gargwarbs posts, she said it so much better than I ever could.

Another one, somebody brought up Percy the farmer in Saskatchewan who was being bullied by Monsanto as an example of a chemical corporation run amok. This is classic false information. The courts of Canada decided that case and it was not in favour of Percy. Yet many of the fanatics just bob their heads and agree that big bad Monsanto was picking on a farmer. I can't recall if anyone other than me challenged that one.

One more and I'll shut up. A recent post talked about a scientific study on glyphosate yet used the term "RoundUp" in the slam sentence. There are many formulations that use glyphosate yet RoundUp by Monsanto was the only reference used, coincidence? I didn't even bother pointing that one out.

If a person isn't seeing these it's because they don't want to, IOW, they want to be misled.

Lloyd

Hmmm - self-appointed thought police can be quite tiresome.

Or does Lloyd work for someone w/ a vested interest in Big Ag?

"Or does Lloyd work for someone w/ a vested interest in Big Ag?"

Asked and answered previously, but I'll answer again.

NO

And thanks for asking me directly carolb. :-)

Lloyd

P.S. I'll add that tidbit into my profile.

Hey Lloyd,
Although I appreciate the shout-out I'm a....
Hang on, let me check something real quick.

Yeah, I'm a guy.
:D

Oh, well, that changes everything then. ;-)

Seriously though, sorry 'bout that and I enjoy reading your posts.

Lloyd

Lloyd - Is this the case?

The courts at all three levels noted that the case of accidental contamination beyond the farmer's control was not under consideration but rather that Mr. Schmeiser's action of having identified, isolated and saved the Roundup-resistant seed placed the case in a different category.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser

Yes, that is the case.

Here is where I recall off the top of my head it coming up in the forums. (note that in that thread as well I indicated I do not work for Monsanto)

Lloyd

so what is being said is this canadian farmer, somehow was able to identify seed from his crop that had been cross pollinated from a monsanto gm crop and then save and plant those seeds?? so my understanding further is these gm crops r/r ready ones needs a spray application of rounup as part of their growing needs?? the spray actuates some sort of growth trigger?

a farmer could do this? would he not need to use a laboratory of something? i can't imagine that the seeds would look different?

of course if he did that then he is in the wrong then by the looks of it? and i might suggest not thinking of consequence.

anyhow can't recall we ever heard that down this way.

what was the eventual outcome?

len

Oh, well, that changes everything then. ;-)
Soooo.... Does that mean you aren't sending me anymore flowers or candy?

:(

gargwarb...lol, no soup for you!

Len...

"somehow was able to identify seed from his crop that had been cross pollinated from a monsanto gm crop and then save and plant those seeds??"

Read the case, it explains it pretty well how he did it.

"gm crops r/r ready ones needs a spray application of rounup as part of their growing needs?? the spray actuates some sort of growth trigger?"

No and no. The herbicide is merely used to kill off all other plants giving the canola no competition for nutrients and moisture ergo increasing the yield potential. RR canola is 'tolerant' of RoundUp. As a note, there are other GMO canolas bred for specific herbicide tolerance, RR is but one. Monsanto is not the only company offering a GMO canola. Not only does this potentially help the current years crop, it sets things up for next years crop. Can't speak for every region, but I know of no one around here that follows a RR crop with another RR crop. Rotations are used to maximize benefits.

"what was the eventual outcome? "

The courts decided the farmer was not telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Monsanto won, the farmer had/has big debts.

This specific case has been used as "spin" for both sides of the argument.

Lloyd

I like to hear both sides of things. Often there is some truth in both. Kind of like watching only "liberal" political sites. I believe it leaves tons of things un said.

I believe that the medical profession along with drug companies AND the FDA have a near locked in bias against more "organic" health solutions. I would like to see the door busted wide open there.....Then you would need HONEST voices to keep things balanced.

Quote: --- Whatever Happened To This Forum? ---

It looks like these people took their rants over to the vegetable forum.

Hmm, I bet these fora are not so interesting to all of you who have been gardening for a long time. We who have not been so fortunate (did not own our own yards, were too poor, or too busy with other things like school, drowning at our hated jobs, etc.) find some of the folks at Gardenweb to be shockingly informative.

I do not care whether they punctuate well or not, or spell correctly. I used this source long before I joined, as a source of some of the best information available on the web for things from finishing fir flooring to what do with impossible red clay soil.

I'd prefer to have some of the folks on this site as neighbors, so that I did not have to go online. But I do have to go online, and some people here are so thoughtful and helpful, it is truly astounding--no one gets anything for their contributions here. Except that perhaps others will learn from them. (I know that I want to spare others from my mistakes!)

So Gardenweb might seem dead compared to an older incarnation of it, but some of us--the quiet, greener kids in the back rows--listen carefully to you guys. And we actually get some sense of who has experience, who to pay particular attention to. (I just saw something about using the most powerful tiller you can rent, and I made a mental note of it--I will follow that advice, but I did not post the question nor participate.)

So, many thanks to you all. I do not come here to argue, only to learn how to take better care of my garden and better improve my house (both of which are fixers acquired rather late in life). There must be many, many of us, often quiet, "listening" to certain aspects of certain conversations in some of these posts. Again, many thanks to you all.

Posted by buckstarchaser 5 MI (My Page) on Tue, Aug 17, 10 at 13:09

"Does anyone know if there's a way to get notifications when someone posts on a thread you're interested in? If I can find something like that I would be happier posting."

I think Len also mentioned a frustration with losing track of a post in which he was interested as well as buckstarchaser.

One way to follow a particular thread is the "Clippings" feature at the upper right of each post. There isn't e-mail notification. That would be an excellent idea.

Access your clippings at your Member Page, or by clicking on your own screen name and then click on "See my Clippings" located under the "Welcome"

Terran

Not sure if this is 100% topic. but when I can to this site, I actually loved it. I attend a lot of the ext. classes and would tell everyone about it. I guess I have not seen too much of what I am reading here. For the most part I have had good experiences. For me, and probably lots of others, gardening is partly for the end result of healthy wonderful plants etc, but a lot of it is for fun and other reasons. One being sharing, sharing the joy of it with other human beings. I know for a fact that I asked a question that had been asked before. I just wanted that interaction, becuase that is a lot of what it is too me. I love to look at those posts of photos from others gardens. When I was a kid, it used to be everyone from the neighborhood getting together and chatting, etc. But now I can also come here for that. I would have loved to have been here years ago.

I will say that on any forum people tend to say things that they would never say in person face to face. I learned long ago to not get too mad at this as it is usually the other person who has the bigger issues to deal with.

I have learned so much here at this forum, so thanks to all of you for your help.

Anyway, starting to ramble on.

Well said, jiskander and realdeal.

yes jiskander and realdeal.

i too would be glad to have very many i have chatted to over the years as neighbours, i get the message people ask or tell no matter where the comma is or the typo, hey we are gardeners and mostly 1 to 4 finger typists, we are not grammar teachers or critics.

no one corrects our punctuation or spelling over the garden fence, this is the garden fence.

take care all

len

Well len a lot of us have trouble with the written language. I have always enjoyed your post on G.W. You put up with my grammar I will put up with yours.

Curt P.S. I like most of the post that are not political or argumentative

We riff/raff are sorry to cramp the style of our very learned gardening gurus. Nah we arent or aint or what ever.As long as I can learn something from some one I will try. The riff / raff remark reminds me of people who are constantly telling us how " bored " they are. It says more about them than it does about what is going on around them. I try to learn and I try to teach. If I listen I can usually do one or the other.Happy gardening. Johnny

I'm in no way a novice, but also nowhere near 'master gardener' status. I'm reasonably new to GW and don't strictly adhere to OG practices. I spend the majority of my time reading past posts and taking whatever information i can gleen from them. I think the 'riff raff' concept is as much a reference to the laziness of some posters as it in reference to the unproductive/unhelpful responses. Therealdeal hit the nail on the head; people talk a big game on the internet, but would never take that kinda tone in real life... I hope. I kinda get a chuckle out of some of the cynical, mean spirited responses, but its more of a 'laughing by the graveyard' type thing. I think my skin would grow kinda thin if my legit questions were met with such vitriole. That said, my thanks to all you "OG's" (original gardeners) out there who keep posting in spite of whatever misgivings you may developed about the forum over the years. I guess I missed the hayday of the the early years, but lots of great info is still easily obtained. As for the 'human interaction' element, if I could learn all I've learned here through face to face interaction, I would have. It's just not possible. GW is the best I got. BTW, Firefox knocks out most pop ups.... until they figure how to get em through again.... then waiting for another undate i guess.... Thanks to all who've helped me out, here, on veggies, figs, and the other forums i enjoy.