Hi, Ray. Very interesting article, and an exciting project.

Charlie's greenhouse sells some kind of "rooting gel" both in quarts and in little sterile 6-paks that you poke a hole in for a cutting. Supposed to have all the nutrients needed to sustain growth for a while. I've used it a few times for reviving little scraps, but not for keikis. It might work for little meristem cuttings, tho.

I have been experimenting with *keiki paste* on phal stems for a few months now. Keiki paste is a growth stimulator that I believe contains the citocynins your article mentions.

I got it from Carter & Holmes, and it includes instructions for use. The first step is like the one discussed in your article -- locating an undeveloped node, and removing the protecting bract without damaging the little meristem growth inside.

That part is fairly easy, using a sterile razor blade. Then you put the keiki paste on the little meristem and wait for a keiki to develop.

I haven't tried anything like the sterile flask, etc. Just primitive unsterile ways:

I've tried it several different times on cut stems that had finished blooming, kept in water while the keikis develop. The bottom two or three nodes are undeveloped and can make keikis. Small stems from weak plants do not make. Don't bother with them.

I just tie a baggie over it, stick it in water, and put it under the lights. A big thick stem off a big strong plant will make the first tiny (pencil lead size) leaf of a keiki in maybe a month to 6 weeks. I did actually get that far with a cut stem, then killed the tiny things by worrying them to death spraying them with physan to keep them from rotting, etc etc. Too much fussing. But it worked that far.

(Also, Pcan has made keikis from cut stems in water even without keiki paste. She posted a picture of one of them a few months ago. That encouraged me).

I have a nice big fat stem off a strong plant in water right now, with the little nubs growing, but no leaf yet. I plan to make some more as different plants finish blooming, just keep trying til I figure it out. Next one, I will take the hint from your article about sterilizing the little meristem nub in peroxide etc, see if that helps.

I've also tried the keiki paste on a stem left on the plant. The first time on a smallish plant, not much result. Second time on a big healthy plant with a honking thick stem. Again, just tied a baggy over the stem. Tiny nubs are just starting, no leaves yet.

I've been waiting for spring to try more -- wanted favorable weather so as not to strain the mother plant. And not ready yet to try it on a favorite plant, in case.

So yes, I'm trying to do it, but in a "kitcheny" sort of way, no sterile flasks or anything like that. It would be great if you got into it and shared your results, too.

There has to be a way to crack this nut, because small vendors make one or two keikis from their prize plants to offer for sale. I know it can be done, just have to keep at it.

I hope you get lots of responses to this thread-- get some tips on how to succeed in the keiki business.

mehitabel, glad to see I am not the only one who can not sleep tonight! I wanted to let you know that I have bought Keiki Pro (the liquid hormone, not the paste that you are using) and have successfully used it to produce Keikis on my Vandaceous orchids! It takes a loooonnnnnggg time! I think my V. Motes Indigo was treated 3 or 4 months ago & the Keiki is only now about 3 inches long. My Neostylis Lou Sneary has two small Keikis about 1 cm tall. I just have my first group of phals blooming (never really got into them until this past year) so I will be using it on them in the near future! My experience with the product has been very good. There is a guy on this forum named Gands who I believe is one of the inventors of the product or co-founders of the company. He occasionally pops into the forums & answers questions (very nice guy). If you should use it, make sure you dilute it just a bit (as they mention in their instructions) so that you do not burn the stem (like I did to my oncidiums). It also works Incredibly well on inactive back bulbs! I have divisions from very old plants that were not doing anything... put some of the hormone on the rhizome & a diluted drop on the inactive eye & bam! a couple weeks later, its started growing!

Any how, back to the topic, I did a lot of very intense googling (maybe this is why I can not sleep) this evening after I posted the message with many different search terms & came up with 4 good links that I am going to glean information from & hopefully add information from this post to create my first flasks. It seems that the most important thing you need to know is how to keep things sterile (which this one particular site teaches you. It also teaches you how to make a cheap sterile chamber from a large, deep plastic bin or aquarium). Other links I have found are mostly related to flasking, but give great tips on making medium & combining it with the agar & seeds. To be honest, after reading all that info, it does not seem so hard, I just think I need to see some photos & have the pros here have done it! I'd also love to learn some of the recipes for mediums that are specialized for each orchid species. The only down side to the links I have found (other than the one from Lotte & Thomas) is that they all talk about seeds, I really want to make it with the stems so that they will grow more quickly & be perfect matches of my adult plants (i have a Chiloschista on the way that smells like chocolate that I know my friends will be dying to get their hands on). I would also like to be able to provide my favorite plants to friends & family for landscaping & local orchid society fundraising auctions! I will post the links I spoke about sometime tomorrow.

-Ray-

Hey, Ray. I'm impressed that you've been making keikis on non-phal vandaceous. Good for you! I remember you mentioning it worked to jumpstart old backbulbs with shriveled up sunken growing points. I thought it was a great idea, tho I don't grow catts or encyclia any more.

Gifts to friends. Yeah, that's why I want to make them, too-- give something special as a gift to someone who would love it. Sometimes I might want an extra one for myself, too. I will definitely watch out for Gands on the forums, and learn what I can from him.

Your flasking plans are much more ambitious than mine, but good for you! I hope you succeed, and share the knowledge that results here. Did you know there are labs that will do meristemming for you and return them flasked? Don't know what it costs, but might be worth it, and you might be able to sell extras on E-Bay, offset the cost.

Hoping for more posts on this -- woo hoo! Anyone else out there trying to propagate?

I'm trying to non-propagate. Lol. The last thing i want to see on an orchid is a keiki. eek!!!

arthur does that mean you have no plants where you would like to have a duplicate?

I've got a couple of very 'spensive phals sitting here I would like to replicate and make some of my money back :>) I also have some pretty good catts that I am richard-izing or trying anyway.

Brooke

Okay, here are the links that I promised to Post

Series of 3 Posters illustrating the process These posters are for African Violets, but the principles of flasking discussed are useful for the node culture process.

A simple guide for flasking seeds (again, not directly talking about nodes, but it is still useful to know)

A more advanced, very detailed guide to flasking seeds

None of these sites have answered my 8 questions, but they did help to clarify the sterilization process & how to keep infectants out of the flasking area. I'm hoping that the experienced growers will come back to the forum soon & see the post before it disappears from the top 10 or 15 messages.

-Ray-

Hi Ray,

Answer for your question #8.
If you want to learn about node culture/propagation you may want to join yahoo hometissue culture group. It's free. Sorry, it could not put a link in here.
It's not only discuss about the orchid propagation but it also tells you about propagation/micro-propagation of plants. Remember the keyword: sterile. If you can sterile ex-plants (nodes, cells...) and environment then you can grow whatever you want in vitro (in bottles, jars...) or node/leave/root culture.
You want to take TC class ask Carol. You want more documents look at the it's link. There are a lot of TC masters who will answer your questions there.
Good Luck,
Kelvin

Thanks Kelvin, I'll Check out that group later tonight! I have a funny story for the couple of you who read this. After reading a couple articles on making simple "sterile boxes" for the home I decided to make a run to a couple of local stores to buy supplies. One stop was at Wal Mart (I hate that store). I bought a large clear plastic bin & long rubber gloves, alcohol, peroxide, small spray bottles, & unscented bleach. I was measuring the gloves on my hands & inside the plastic bin when two security guards approached me with a police officer. I thought I was in trouble because they thought I was shop lifting or something. Oh noooo,if it were only that, they had been watching me on the store security cameras & thought the product I had in my cart combined with my behavior (measuring boxes, gloves, etc) seemed very suspicious. So they got an officer from the front of the store to come investigate the suspected terrorist! The officer was looking very squirrelly (squirrelly= very excited/ agitated). He wanted to know what I was doing. I explained that I was making a sterile box to make tissue cultures of my orchids. Needless to say he was not satisfied with that answer, so I had to explain what each chemical was for how without a sterile box the fungi spores will grow quicker & kill the tissue, etc, etc, etc. I spent at least 15 minutes being questioned & having my I.D. examined before he reluctantly let me go on my way. I have a feeling that I will never have another PRIVATE phone conversation, e-mail, or web posting ever again. Oh well, at least someone is looking out!

-Ray-

Just thought I'd pop in here. I have been using KeikiPro to do stem keikis in un-sterile jars. What I do is dampen some sphagnum moss, hand squeeze out most of the water so it is just wet but not sopping wet. I cut phal stems about 3/4 of an inch top and bottom of the actual node, rub KP on the nodes, mixed with water at 2 drops per ounce. Then I simply lay them on the sphagnum and they grow like that. I use pint jars or sometimes plastic containers with lids just to keep the humidity up in the container. I do not put the lids on too tight. I keep them in the greenhouse out of direct sun so they don't cook in the jars............learned that the hard way. I expect it could be done under light indoors as well.

Gands, Great idea! Have you ever tried mixing the K.P. hormone with a medium like agar to make an inexpensive medium for meristem culture? I have no idea what makes up the KP mix, but maybe it could be used in that instance? Maybe Ill make up a batch & see what happens =0). I've put some KP on my Vanda inflorescences at the nodes to see if anything will happen (branching, node development, kiekies, dead flowers, etc. Its been 5 days & there does not seem to be any burning, so hopefully dead flowers will not be on the menu =0).

Gands, do you know where to collect tissue from for maristeming monopodial orchids like Vandas? I have seen that roots can be used, but the results are not as satisfactory as those taken from other parts of the plant. I think I will go buy a cheap phal. this weekend & give your technique a shot! Thanks for the great idea!!

-Ray-

That article by Lotte & Thomas was great! Very interesting to read about methods of propagation. It really caught my attention because I have a phal that's just finishing flowering and I'm trying to experiment with propagating. Right now I have the spike stuck into damp spaghnum moss - we'll see if it does anything :)

Okay, so a couple questions (and keep in mind I'm a newbie). Ray, you mentioned that you plan to propagate your Chiloschista with this method. I realize this is a very broad question since there are sooo many varieties of orchids, but in general does this mean that you could theoretically take the flower spike of any orchid, place it in a damp spaghnum (possibly with keiki pro or something similar), and it'd grow a keiki? Also, is there a difference in the time between a seedling and a keiki, as far as how long it takes to become a mature plant?

Last question, I promise! In another post here on the forum, it talks about Keiki Pro vs. Keiki Grow. I haven't used either of these products (although I'm planning on placing an order for Keiki Pro soon), but I'm curious if SuperThrive fits anywhere in this. I'm not sure what's in it, but if I were to put a spike in some water with a drop of SuperThrive, would that help the development of a keiki in any way?

Thanks,
~altair

To be honest, I have only done the theory part of this. Since the first post, I have spent every night researching the different methods of in vitro propagation. So while I have no real world experience, I have done tons & TONS of research & gotten lots of tips & tricks from those who are experts. So I am more than happy to pass on that knowledge, but just remember I myself have not successfully made these things happen.

First, I think that using the Keiki Pro method will probably just work on plants like Phals & Oncidiums that have the nodes at the segments of the stems. Vandas (at least those in my collection) do not have those nodes at the segments. Lotte sent me a photo of Chiloschista that they removed the node coverings & placed into the sterile medium.

I am planning to experiment with both the sphagnum moss & sterile in vitro methods when I eventually get my Chilos to bloom.

I have really taken an interest in Meristem propagation of my Vandas, That involves removing root tips or shoot tips, placing them in a media with hormones that stimulate multiplication of the callus cells. These masses of PLBs (protocom like bodies) are then divides & placed into other flasks where they are placed on a medium that will allow for root development.

I have read that meristemmed orchids do not necessarily mature quicker than seed propagated plants, but you can produce carbon copies of the adult plant much more quickly with this method! I have also read that Phals. will be ready for first blooming within a year of coming out of the flask when you use the in vitro node method! Again, I have not done these things myself, so I would encourage you to spend some time on the web or at the library reading about the methods available to you!

As for Super Thrive. It is not a hormone; it is a concentration of vitamins that helps to make your plant healthier. It will not stimulate Keikis to grow like one of the hormone products (kind of like Centrum. It is a multivitamin that gives your body a boost, but it will not remove the blemishes from your hand. You need special product that has been designed to remove the blemish.) Get the Keiki Pro, it is an awesome product! Much better than the powder stuff!

I hope this has answered your questions, if not, let me know... I just got back in from a run & my mind is not all here just yet =0)

-Ray-

Ray, thanks for your reply - yes, it did answer my question. I'm so excited - I just placed an order this morning for a 1oz. bottle of KeikiPro. Can't wait to try it out on the little phals I'm experimenting with :)

~altair

Great thread here guys!
Ray - I have not used KP mixed with agar, I would expect results from that method to be sketchy at best because germination or propagation mediums are not simply infused with hormones but have other ingredients as well to support and nourish newly developing growths. Without those I would not have high hopes........but hey give it a shot.

As far as tissue for meristeming, I would go for a node either from an inflorescense or from the growth stem itself. I am not a meristemer so I can't advise beyond that.

Superthrive does have a hormone involved, it is NAA, a synthetic auxin as well as the other vitamin ingredients mentioned. I would suppose at certain specific times, it could help with keiki growth, but not as a general rule.