The grass clippings and leaves may mat up causing water + soil oxygen infiltration issues. Some people can get away with it, though. We get way too much rain here in the South-East US to do that.

Also, I'd skip the cardboard if you're going to pile on amendments anyway...especially with such a short time you're giving it to break down.

thank-you.

So the cardboard must break down for the garden to be effective?

Also - through continual research I may do a cardboard base (versus the hard work of tilling) and a lasagna style manure and straw garden, would this be better?

Thanks.

Leanne,

Hello, how are you? So essentially you want to make a lasagna garden and plant in raw undecomposed matter. That doesn't sound like a good idea, everything would be so light and airy(or the opposite) and your roots will not have anything to anchor to, it will likely dry out to quick. It all depends how high you make your bed. Also, I wouldn't plant in raw manure, it usually should be composted. From my understanding, people who do the "lasagna" method waits a winter or so for the matter to decompose..

I was in your position.. Keep an eye out for your city giving out compost to the residents, that's where I got dozens of yards for free! You could even check craigslist,freecycle,etc.. Instead of putting the raw organic matter first, then the soil/compost, I would put the soil/compost then the organic matter.. Pull back the mulch and plant in the soil. Depending on how deep your initial depth of soil/compost, your first year might be lacking, or it will be very fruitful. That's where having cash, or local connections would make or break your first year no-Till. The more soil you input, the better the results, generally..

It would help if we knew hoe big your garden is? Will you only need a $20 yard of soil, or do you need thousands of pounds of soil?

I would start a compost pile, as big as you could, with mostly brown/carbon materials(leaves,straw,hay) with some nitrogen(food scraps, grass,manure,etc). It would only take a few months to decompose in a compost pile, compared to seasons as mulch in the garden.. In no time, you will have rich,free soil for your garden.

This is how I start all my garden beds

-mow grass as short as possible
-one layer cardboard, or few layers newspaper
-pile soil/compost ontop of the cardboard/newpaper
-mulch
-plant

I would definentley use the cardboard/newspaper, unless younsent your garden being grass. You have to kill the lawn or you will be growing it, don't risk it. I understand where he's comping from, because cardboard take long to decompose,etc.. But I would rather wait for it to breakdown, then have my garden ruined by grass and weeds.. Cardboard will not ruin your garden, I do it for Nearly every bed I make, i have virtually no weeds, and the plants flourish.. However it also depends on your conditions, and how much soil you input initially.

If you want a successful "no till" garden from the start, you need a few inches of soil to start with..

Ps- home depot has 40 lb topsoil for $1. I picked up 10 bags to level my lawn.. It will work for your garden, better than nothing..
Your best bet is to look for free city compost,etc..

Good luck,
Joe

Thank-you so much for your response, Joe. We are planting 2-4 rectangular beds primarily for selling purposes, but of course to use with family and friends. The width will be about 4-ish feet. We will probably be making them on the smaller side, as this is our first year. We will be needing a lot of soil.

Thanks for the great idea to call the city for some compost!
What are the pros and cons of using soil versus compost?

To reiterate - you think it will be fine to use cardboard for a summer yield?

Thank-you,

Leanne

So from what I understand, you are having 2 beds 4x4'?
If so 32 sq ft isnt a lot of soil.. I garden a little more than 1,000 sq ft and get the initial bulk of my compost from the city.

Pros/cons of compost and soil:

The reason i recomend compost, is because a lot of cuties have tons of plant waste, they have to dispose of this somehow.. You are likely to get compost free, although some cities charge,including mine, I go to a neighboring city... Soil you are almost always paying for.. In general, soil is heavier, more dense, and comprising the majority of your garden.. Compost, is lighter, and used more as a soil amendment, which comprises only comprises a portion of your garden.. A lot of people tell you to go with the majority if your mix soil, then part of your mix compost.. I personally just you whatever i can get. I'm like you, i don't want to spend a fortune, so i use almost pure compost for my garden, beggers can't be choosers, sure you can relate.. I would just use anything you have handy.. However, I do have a healthy soil foodweb. I grow cover crops,green manures, and mulch heavily. All that organic matter turns into rich soil, which balences out the light compost..

To reiterate - you think it will be fine to use cardboard for a summer yield?"

Remember it depends how much soil you are going to pile ontop.. If you only pile an inch or less ontop the cardboard, you are likely to have a poor yield the first year.. If you have several inches(2+ in), you are likely to have a very successful,fruiting season.

The good thing about no till is your garden improves dramatically every year.. It isn't for folks in an apartment, its for devoted gardeners to stick with their gardens for several years.. The first year is not always the best, but if you compost,grow cover crops/greenmanures, and really take care of your soil, your garden is almost care free and highly productive after a year or two.. It is highly productive the very first year IF you have enough soil/compost..

With No-till gardening you are essentially speeding up the forest floor. If you don't add any/little growing medium(soil/compost), you are reply not speeding up the process that much.. It's like growing in your lawn. That's why people till, to have the fertility and amendments added,to speed up the process.. If you add several inches of growing medium, you are speeding up nature by decades! It takes years to make one inch of topsoil in the forest.. If you apply several inches, you can imagine how much you sped up the process.. You can have finished compost in a matter of monthes, and keep adding that on top of your soil..

If you want to have a successful first year, you either:

1- need several inches of growing medium
2-till your soil

Im sure you can find cheap/free soil/compost someplace.. You got your work cut out for you my friend!

Best of luck,
Joe

PS- don't hesistate to ask questions, more than happy to help you

Thank-you so much for your response, Joe. We are planting 2-4 rectangular beds primarily for selling purposes, but of course to use with family and friends. The width will be about 4-ish feet. We will probably be making them on the smaller side, as this is our first year. We will be needing a lot of soil.

Thanks for the great idea to call the city for some compost!
What are the pros and cons of using soil versus compost?

To reiterate - you think it will be fine to use cardboard for a summer yield?

Thank-you,

Leanne

Sounds to me like you are going to make a Lasagna Garden and that Pat Lanza probably could be of more help then anyone.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lasagna Gardening 101

Thank-you, Joe.

I think I am going to go with a nice thick compost layer of about 10 inches. Should I be adding anything else to the compost, such as animal manure or a top layer of hay? I checked out kijiji/craigslist and I see free manure and hay.

Also - I'm thinking I will lay the cardboard down first and then lay down the compost in a week or two, versus immediately, I hope that would be okay.

Leanne

Thank-you, Joe.

I think I am going to go with a nice thick compost layer of about 10 inches. Should I be adding anything else to the compost, such as animal manure or a top layer of hay? I checked out kijiji/craigslist and I see free manure and hay.

Also - I'm thinking I will lay the cardboard down first and then lay down the compost in a week or two, versus immediately, I hope that would be okay.

Leanne

There is absolutely 0 reason to put cardboard down if you're going to put such a huge amount of compost on your garden.

It will do nothing but create a barrier from letting the compost move down into and infiltrate your natural soil.

Holy crow! You went from barely any medium to 10 inches of compost! Whered you find that at? Is it free or what?

You could add some topsoil and DECOMPSED manure if you like. Some don't like pure compost, so they cut is with some topsoil. My plants grow just fine in compost.. Don't forget to mulch.. Mulch is important..

Also - I'm thinking I will lay the cardboard down first and then lay down the compost in a week or two, versus immediately, I hope that would be okay"

That will work.. Anything to smother the grass will be sufficient... I agree with NC if you really are laying down 10 inche of compost + mulch, you do not need anything else to kill the grass.. However, if you are just Estimating and only have a few inches of compost, grass is likely to grow through and ruin your garden.. Remember dry fluffy compost shrinks to about half size when it gets rained on.. If you really are going to apply about a foot of compost plus mulch, you should be ok leaving out the cardboard.. The reason behind me advising you to use cardboard,etc, is to safe guard your garden from a grass invasion. You would see were I'm coming from if grass starts growing..

Youll be fine with 10 inches of compost+mulch, no need for anything..

I'm curious, how the hell did you get your hand on that much compost? It's crazy how plants could change that dramatically..

Joe

I was HOPING to get that much! From the place you suggested - city composting. I guess I'm dreaming. Anyways, three more questions!

What type of mulch do you use?

What about using the existing dirt from the land?

Do you plant directly into the compost? I read that was not good.

Thanks,
Leanne

Right, I figured it was just a thought.. Did you call the city and ask? Do they even offer compost? Are they charging for it?'

What type of mulch do you use?"

It all depends on your soil, situation,etc.. I grow a cover crop/greenmanur of winter rye. I cut that with a weedwacker comes spring and it's just like straw.. I also use leaves.

What about using the existing dirt from the land?"

What do you mean exactly? Your native soil that you were going to put the beds on top of? If so, yes you could use your native soil.. That's why most
people till, it's cheap to start out with.. Just some amendments and fertilizer, till it up and ready to plant.. That will work out great.. I still prefer not to till, I'm weird, what can I say!

Do you plant directly into the compost? I read that was not good."

I do.. it works great! I also mix in a bucket of rich topsoil from the woods once in a blue moon.. I planted in compost for quite awhile, it works great, in my experience.. You have to understand that the plants roots are not just going to sit in the compost, they are going to tap into your native soil as well..

Im still not clear of how big your garden is.. It is two 4x4' beds, equaling 32 sq ft total, correct?

Joe

Hi Joe,

Yes, the city is staging a week long free compost pick up next week, how coincidental?! or normal, given the time of year.

When I said using the existing dirt, I basically meant extracting topsoil from the woods - just different wording.

I have not been out to measure yet. I am thinking width to be 3-4 feet and length to be about 8 feet. I will have to assess the land once I see it. And I think it would be safe to start off on the smaller side, since this is my first real venture. I've done a very small corner garden of about 4 x 4 feet. I'm going to have at least 2 beds this time around.

What depth would you recommend I use? I know this would be dependent upon the amount of compost I'm able to get.

I just can't decide if I should put down cardboard or not.

L.

If you put down cardboard, the soil you add on top will not mix in with the existing soil, extending the time it actually takes to get the very effects you're going for in a no-till soil.

Cardboard methods are for those that give it proper time to break down (months to 1/2 year+ depending on area). If you want to plant this summer + use cardboard you can run into water issues along with hastening the time it takes for your no-till method to actually do what you want it to do. All that cardboard will do is separate 2 layers of soil until it's broken down enough to mix.

Thank-you, nc-crn. I am leaning against no cardboard.

Ok, so has anyone killed grass by laying down cardboard and removing it about two weeks afterwards? How do you remove the dead grass, with a rake? Is it strenuous?

It was suggested to me do go through this grass killing process.

Killing grass involves killing the rhizomes/root-system. It takes quite a while of starving it without water/light/oxygen (or chemicals). It's a shallow root system, but it's a very strong/vigorous root system. Many warm season grasses can survive extreme periods of cold and snow cover to simply emerge as if nothing happened when it warms up.

Raking/tilling/etc. rhizomes that are not fully dead will only bring them into a more ideal situation in order to fully thrive.

There are non-chemical means to kill the grass other than physical exclusion, but many aren't very effective. Also, any grass that borders your garden will seek it's way into the garden without a physical barrier of some sort.

Think of grass as an extremely strong, self-protecting from climate extremes, extensive root system that lives to spread laterally...that's basically how it acts.

i'll lay down on the grass, a raised bed.

What depth would you recommend I use? I know this would be dependent upon the amount of compost I'm able to get."

6" would be sufficient. Or whatever you have, you really can't have too much.. But you well run into problems if you don't have enough..

I use cardboard and I never see a problem with it. I lay it down and plant in that the same day. I never find watering issues, nor any other issues. The cardboard decomposes pretty quick, depending... Saturate a piece of cardboard and see how easy it is to penetrate.. The roots will probably penetrate the cardboard.. I don't quite believe that if you lay down cardboard you are defeating the purpose for no till.. The cardboard really isn't to much of a concern.. You are overthinking it.. All your trying tondo is kill grass.. Whether it be smothering it with tarps the whole summer and planting in the spring, laying cardboard, soil and planting in that, or just laying soil and crossing your fingers the grass ain't going to grow through.. Your call.. I would just hate to see your garden being chocked out by grass.. Nothings more disappointing..

Joe

Leanne, pardon me if I missed it, but should I assume you have a running-type grass?
If so, I'd put down cardboard (seriously overlapped)
If not, the clumping grasses I've dealt with are easily smothered by just compost and mulch.
YMMV!

I expanded my garden a small amount last year at the beginning of the season.

- Mowed the grass down to dirt level.
- Laid cardboard or paper over the grass.
- Threw about an inch of compost over the paper to hold it down.
- In each spot I put a seedling, I dug a hole right through the paper into the grass. Turned the the grass piece over and broke up the soil with the shovel.
- Stuck the seedling into the freshly dug hole.

The cardboard kept the grass from coming up between the plants. Once the plants grew, they drowned out the grass in the small holes I dug. The plants did wonderful.

If you're doing raised beds or 10" of dirt on top of the grass, skip the cardboard. If you're planting right into the grass like I did, use the cardboard.

Knowing the grass you have would be a help. In your area of the world the most common grasses are the cool season grasses such as Kentucky Blue Grass, Fescues, and Perennial Ryes but weedy grasses such as Quack Grass and Johnson Grass are just as common. The first three are fairly easily killed by smothering, roots and all, while the last two are not. Top growth of the Quack and Johnson grasses can be killed by smothering but the rhizomes, roots, are not and those grasses will grow back within a year. If the material you are going to put down on the grass will be deeper than 6 inches cardboard or newspaper will not be necessary to kill the grass. Cardboard or newspaper are used to help extend the amount of mulch material so thinner layers can be used with the same results, the death of any plant material so covered.

I haven't tried lasagna or no-till gardening, but I wanted to chime in about grass.

On our property, we have several "holes" that are probably from previously rotted out tree trunks. Usually they're about 18-24 inches in diameter, and basin shaped to a depth of about 6-12 inches. I have made it a mission to fill them in as I work, and will dump whatever dirt I dig from other parts of the yard, used soil from containers, soil from around new plants after I have cleaned the roots for a repot.

I just dump it in the holes, sometimes I get enough to create a 6-10" layer. The grass always grows up through.

If cardboard won't hurt, I'd think it could only help prevent grass invasions.