How about worms castings or worm casting tea

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses. OK, you have convinced me to tread back into synthetic fertilizers, even though I've been going organic with my houseplants for about a year. Now the question becomes: which synthetic do you recommend? I want to minimize salt buildup in the soil if possible, but I realize this may not be possible. Thanks again in advance. :)

The same hydrological forces that strip your soil of the nutrients also pull out the salts (the nutrients being in salt form and all). Just be sure that you occasionally water enough that water exits the soil and you will be taking care of your salt problems.

Since this is an organic gardening forum there should be no discussion of synthetic fertilizers here. There are other forums for that.

There are no any problems with organic fertilizers on houseplants if any organic matter used for fertilization is preliminary fermented. No gants. Fresh fungus smell from soil. Healthy plants.

kimmsr, i don't think the forum gods are that strict around here. i've been here since 2001, and i've stuck around b/c of the easy-going attitudes. i am 100% certain that those, like me, on the OG forum are devoted heart and soul to organic gardening. a little discussion about the effectiveness (or lack of effectiveness) of OG in certain situations isn't going to offend anyone except the most rigid fanatics among us. no offense intended.

Since this is an organic gardening forum there should be no discussion of synthetic fertilizers here.

Thus the practice of comparative analysis is eliminated. That is: it is like comparing the merits of X, Y, and Z without mentioning Z. Or wondering of A or B is better without comparing B. Thus logic and thought are shut down and the robot automata take over.

Best,

D

The question was posed on this forum and was answered appropriately. Just because this is the "organic gardening" forum, there is no prohibition to recommending alternate, potentially non-organic practices if they happen to be more appropriate to the issues at hand.

Organic gardening methods practiced in the garden in an in-ground situation cannot be directly transferred to a container growing situation. The conditions and growing requirements are very different. You are talking apples and oranges. Many organic practices have very little validity or effectiveness with regards to growing plants in a container. The point of the responses was to clarify that issue.

btw, there are no 'forum gods' unless you are dishing spam or verbally abusive......although it would seem that there are a various forum members who would like to have themselves considered as the forum gods and everyone adhere to their narrow viewpoint :-)

I'll bet that with a few different definitions for organic we can craft a forum where no people are allowed to post anything on topic. We are discussing synthetics on the topic of organics.

We are discussing synthetics on the topic of organics.

Using this interesting logic, should we have praised the OP for their choice and stated the technique was inadequate for their needs and left it at that? Would that strategy be helpful to the OP? Is that sort of strategy helpful overall in civil discourse?

Dan

This is the statement at the top of this forum, not put there by me.
"This forum is meant for the discussion of organic gardening. Organic gardening is most easily defined as a philosophy that stresses the use of naturally occurring substances and friendly predators and avoiding man-made chemical fertilizers and pesticides. This is the philosophy which guides this forum."

Thine own urine is vegan, is it not? One does not enslave one's self.

using kimmsr's logic then, we should have praised the OP for their choice and stated the technique was inadequate for their needs and left it at that and given no further help, because it is or is not something or other.

IOW: no help for the OP. Who is going to contact the mods and have them remove the replies that were helpful?

Dan

Dan I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me. Our conversation right now has drifted towards synthetics, our topic is still organics. Just like a conversation on the topic of affordable automobiles can include information about bicycle commuting but when you get into bicycle decals you have left the topic.

pnbrown, There is no such thing as vegan urine.

The synthetic vs organic thing is really deeply dark ages thinking. Urea purified from urine and urea synthesized from the air are going to do the same thing to your houseplants, the "organic" laws in the US are just another racket.

The philosophy behind veganism is: do not take advantage of animals, even insects. Mostly domesticated animals, and there is a line that is drawn because most vegans do not carry this theme to the extent that the Jains do, they do not wear masks to prevent the breathing in of airborne organisms.

Consider, therefor: humans are not animals, and especially, oneself is not being taken advantage of if one captures and uses one's own effluent. Does a plant wish to have it's foliage eaten, or desire to be a captive?

Can a vegan take advantage of microbes or microarthropods?

Philosopher said,
kimmsr, i don't think the forum gods are that strict around here. i've been here since 2001, and i've stuck around b/c of the easy-going attitudes. i am 100% certain that those, like me, on the OG forum are devoted heart and soul to organic gardening. a little discussion about the effectiveness (or lack of effectiveness) of OG in certain situations isn't going to offend anyone except the most rigid fanatics among us. no offense intended.

I seldom see anyone around here longer than I have been. I think I could count on one hand the number of times there has been a question specifically about synthetic fertilizers on this forum. The OP came to this forum with a question about organic products for house plants and then changed to synthetic. At that point he should have taken the question to the houseplant forum. Why? Because the people on the houseplant forum are more likely to give him an answer based on recent experience.

I guess it has to do with completely diverting a creature's natural bent (like making cows give milk to be consumed by humans)or co-opting a creatures output (like taking the honey from a bee society).

Causing plants to grow in a garden is perhaps not so perverted from their natural tendency as causing a cow to give more milk than she would or for much longer, and stealing it from the calf besides. Though I'm not sure myself, which is why I'm lacto-vegetarian rather than vegan.

Vegans also eschew animal-produced manure because I suppose the animal is likely to be an enslaved one. If one crept about the forest and picked up deer-droppings, that should be ok. And for sure oneself is not a slave, and we presume that no human is these days the slave of another, so the manure of humans is vegan.

When ever you ask about what nature is supposed to be like you are asking the wrong question and are likely to get a misleading answer.

"...Vegans also eschew animal-produced manure because I suppose the animal is likely to be an enslaved one..."

So, does that rule out worm castings? It has some readily available nutrients and plant growth hormones. Were I to avoid synthetics, that's where I'd turn.

tj

What defines a vegan is not refusal to allow animal suffering, there are people who do not eat any animal that suffers, who raise their own stock in a free and non-enslaving environment, trading grain for milk, and are not vegans. This however is not the vegan forum, this is the organics forum, and now we really are off topic.

Do you suppose anyone cares if we are OT? It's not like the urgent OG questions are blasting flak-holes in this forum....

Uh, pardon me: My copy of Territorial's catalog came today, they are selling something they call Vegan plant food or fertilizer, don't remember which.

Michael

Michael, I don't see anyone arguing that there are not 'vegan' or non-animal product organic fertilizers available but rather several that would suggest that for a containerized plant - a houseplant at that - relying only on an organic approach may not provide the best results.

The product you refer to is granular and non-soluble and is recommended to be used with compost, so that adequate popoulations of microorganisms are present to convert to a usable form. And it looks like its intended use is for veggies......outdoors :-)

G-gal: I'd guess the OPs intent to have a very good chance to fail but, thought I'd do my best to provide a wee bit of help. I didn't see anyone making that argument either.

My potted houseplants always have soil mixed in at about a 1:3 - 1:4 soil:OM v:v. I realize that including soil in the mix is likely atypical. That probably influenced my thinking about that product, not thinking hydroponically. The soil is there to improve water holding capacity as I frequently forget to water my plants. Imagine that, a floriculture major with 2 degrees who can't remember to water his plants, geez.

Michael

Philosopher, I am going to tiptoe into this discussion with an idea for you to try based on Valerie of Russia's rye flour postings. I have mixed up various combinations of his ideas and although the following one varies from his directions I am noting that this one appears to have merit and hopefully some of you will trial it on your houseplants.

First, before posting the formula a few remarks. You will note that I use dried molasses. I was not pleased with using blackstrap molasses in this formula. Dried molasses is available in 40 pound bags from feed stores that cater to horse owners. Not a waste of money as tossing it over garden and lawn when the weather warms encourages healthy microrganisms. Also, this formula will spoil in about eight days and extra should be poured on the compost pile or frozen into ice cubes and when making a new batch, one ice cube of it added to the new formula you are making. I have been doing the latter with good results.

The formula:

1. Sterilize in dish washer or with boiling water a 1/2 gallon plastic bottle. I use a milk bottle.

2. Fill with tap water. Allow to sit overnight uncapped to allow chlorine to dissipate. If using well/rain water go to step 3.

3. Add 2 tablespoons of dried molasses and two tablespoons of rye flour. Cap bottle and shake well.

4. Stand bottle on kitchen counter for three days, shaking often. Keep capped. This formula does not require placing the bottle in sunlight as Valerie is suggesting. It will become the color of cider.

5. After three days add 1/4 cup of this formula to 1/2 gallon water and water house plants. Dispose of any extra formula as suggested above.

The whole process is easy and I will be interested in reports from those who try it.

Hi all--I do not want to shut down this wonderful dialogue by providing a small denounment to our discussion, but I did decide to move back to synthetic fertilizer for my houseplants. Every prepared organic fertilizer that I bought seemed to use fish meal, and that is no longer acceptable to me. I use an organic soil base amended with aged compost, so some organic nutrients do exist within the soil. I will occasionally repot to recharge the soil.

I am open to other ideas, and I will continue to check back on this thread to listen to you all discuss and debate this issue. Thank you all for your thoughtful comments!

Wouldn't the obvious choice for a 'vegan' fertilizer be a good synthetic product? Or has someone already mentioned that? I forget.

There are only 2 noble persons on this forum: Nandina and Dchall_San_Antonio.

I know Dchall, he introduced me to compost tea (microbes behind) and to soil science (he didn't know that Russia is a Motherland of soil science). I am grateful to him that he attracted my attention to it.

I don't know Nandina. But she is the same level as Dchall, I think.

I think I can tell you something that you don't know.

I'll tell you that if plants need elctron acceptor for photosynthesis, their ancient ancestors (anaerobic photosynthetic bacteria - archeobacteria) need electon donor. What is rotating above the ground is then need to de-rotate under the ground.

This is the key to the health and OG!

KVAS is Great thing, believe me!

I'll tell you that if plants need elctron acceptor for photosynthesis, their ancient ancestors (anaerobic photosynthetic bacteria - archeobacteria) need electon donor. What is rotating above the ground is then need to de-rotate under the ground.

This is the key to the health and OG!

How does this provide calcium and boron and nitrogen and...?

I kind of understand what you are talking about and have some KVAS aging as I type so I can play with it, but I really don't see how it replaces the need for essential nutrients.

I really don't see how it replaces the need for essential nutrients.

If you will go to the garden, and put a hand into the soil, and send that stuff into laboratorie, and ask them - how long those mixro-elements can support me? - They will reply to you: At least 1000 years, for you, for your wife, for your children, and grand-children, and grand-grand-grand-children of your children... It's all just in one hand ... your hand, my friebd!

Wouldn't the obvious choice for a 'vegan' fertilizer be a good synthetic product? Or has someone already mentioned that?

I don't think it was mentioned specifically, but talk about overlooking the obvious! Of course it would be. LOL!

philosopher, I really think you have made the wisest choice. And I think your houseplants are going to thank you for it :-)

How does this provide calcium and boron and nitrogen and...?

Are you fool?

How does this provide calcium and boron and nitrogen and...?

Are you fool?

I dunno, I might be. If I am foolish, it's for asking you an honest question. How does KVAS make nitrogen, boron and magnesium (and all the other plant nutrients)?

Maybe I am just a stupid person for not knowing the answer. Sorry for my stupidity.

Now that we have established how incredibly stupid I am, would you mind answering the question?

How does this provide calcium and boron and nitrogen and...?

justaguy2,

sorry, I was rough with you,
but agree, when your thoughts are flying like a bird in the sky it get irritated when someone pull you back to the ground.

If you find the information of how much essential elements (P,K,Ca, ... ) for plants in the ordinary clay and even in the sand (besides Nitrogen) then you will be very surprized. 1 cubic meter will be enough for 5000 years of growing say rye with the harvest 100 centner/ha or 1 kg from 1 square meter. That means 1 dm3 (a size of small pot) is enough for 5 years of growing everything. But if to use rye (in KVAS) regularly it will be unlimited because rye grain has everything ground elements and plus Nitrogen. And as for Nitrogen, organic acids in KVAS will stimulate nitrogen fixing bacteria such as rhodopseudomonas palustris.

KVAS (and rye flour) will give also carbon to cells of bacteria (they need it).

When doctor Higa put molasses (preliminary fermented with EM) into the see, he put carbon there and microbes bound nitrogen with carbon. Carbon is a key.

Boron is not a problem.

Interesting that the two noble people on the forum - according to valerie - are: the one that turned valerie on to his obsession and the one that gave him an ego-stroke.

Rye flour and "soil science" that only geniuses and nobility can comprehend. Goodness. I'm glad nature manages to stumble along in my little corner of the world without those things.....

Did I give Valerie an 'ego stroke"? All I did was supply a 'vegan' fertilizer idea as requested with which I am experimenting based on Valerie's posts. So far the idea I posted has not killed my plants. They all seem healthy, exhibiting normal growth. No, I do not believe all that Valerie has been posting. But, I refuse to dismiss his ideas without some trials and await spring growing conditions to continue. Working with variations of rye flour formulas seems to be leading me into an interesting theory which has nothing to do with what Valerie is claiming. Will see where it goes.

pnbrown,

All people are noble in one or other relation.
"Noble" I mean here - noble in Organic Gardening. That is having specific sense of it even without knowledge. Not too many people have it in what we call "organic gardening". That is why I call them "noble".

an 'intuitive grasp', perhaps?

I tend to ignore or discount one-way type methodologies; if there is a suggestion, for example, that the only way to get good sustainable gardening results is by some very specific method. The making of microbial potions as a must, or absolutely never till, or no animal manure, or always animal manure every year, etc.

There are at least a dozen ways to skin the cat.

There are at least a dozen ways to skin the cat.

Yes.

BUT it is very important HOW (what way of 13 ways) you make it.

We skin the cat on this forum Organic way. We have the right to do that.

We believe in it!

It's your choice!

I've been writing to Valerie for years. At first I'm sure I was relatively combative with him, but that turned out to be a language translation issue. Over the years he has changed my mind many times with very specific research performed by scientists from his country.

One of the sad byproducts of the USSR from the very beginning was that we in the West lost out on the amazing amount of soil science research performed in the USSR. Nobody in soil science understood the impact of microbes until the 1990s but the Soviet research Valerie has provided me (and us if you care to look back at his links) makes more sense now after knowing the importance of the microbes. The Russians were on the edge of understanding microbes in the 1890s while we were still reading the Farmer's Almanac. When the Iron Curtain went up and the scientists were no longer allowed to travel to visit each other, the West lost track of what was going on. Now that the USSR is broken up and Russia is its own country again, I'm convinced by Valerie that we need to dig deep into their libraries to put their old research into modern perspective. While it is fun to discuss where the television and other modern appliances were invented, I'm convinced the home of modern soil science is behind the former Iron Curtain.

I'm also very glad to see Nandina trying out Valerie's recipes. Nandina does good work and is the only regular poster on GardenWeb using the scientific method for our benefit.

Hmmmm.... and did the pre-iron-curtain scientists also participate in the genocide by starvation [by taking crops] of the Ukraine?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4193129.ece

I only ask this because dchall has them practically walking on water [so far ahead of us, etc.] hits my gag reflex.

I'm with pnbrown ... dogmatic arguments may claim a scientific basis, but very seldom do. And the dogmatic insistance on a certain magic formula comes from one who frequently poses questions about over-population [based on too much 'love']being his big worry. Hey, the method used in the '30s russian genocide worked.[shrug]

Hmmmm.... and did the pre-iron-curtain scientists also participate in the genocide by starvation [by taking crops] of the Ukraine?
No.

Did pre-iron-curtain scientists also participate in the genocide by sprinkling metil-orange [over crops] of the Vietnam?

I only ask this because dchall has them practically walking on water [so far ahead of us, etc.] hits my gag reflex.

What was ahead  it was ahead!
Google "Winogradsky column".

the dogmatic insistance on a certain magic formula

Rye flour? There is a lot of behind it. I have said something about it if anyone red attentively.
And I will say much more in the future.

comes from one who frequently poses questions about over-population [based on too much 'love']being his big worry.

Over-population is a big worry. IÂve red that in the book of American author first time. I just told you about it with my own words.

As for Love, you can look at Bible, and you will find that nobody there sing a song to Love.
Just only to LOVE TO GOD, but itÂs another story!.

Hmmmm.... and did the pre-iron-curtain scientists also participate in the genocide by starvation [by taking crops] of the Ukraine?

Did you read that article? It was pre Iron Curtain politics that created the genocide. The article explains it pretty clearly. I doubt if any scientists were involved. Stalin was a very bad guy.

Here's an on-line book about the Russian investigations into soil micro-organisms.

Here is a link that might be useful: SOIL MICROORGANISMS AND HIGHER PLANTS

I don't want to plow through any long-winded articles on soil science. I don't need such to be able to produce fruit and veggies with little or no outside inputs and completely organic. Just human labor and urine, wood ash and rats as aerators.

But just for kicks does any resident scientist care to make a clear and super-short case for this rube as to why rye or any particular grain would be a necessity (or a necessary carrier or catalyst) for soil organisms to do their thing? Does the rye or corn have to be grown commercially hundreds of miles away or can one grow it on-site (presumably before one has the required micro-organisms)?

I agree whole-heartedly DC about looking into what the folks in Russia and the former USSR were doing in the area of soil science research. Contempt prior to investigation never did me much good.

Valerie, perhaps your message is valid, I don't know, perhaps the way you are delivering it could be altered to better effect. Don't stop trying if you believe in the message even if I think you are wrong.

By the way, you excluded yourself from your quote above, "There are only 2 noble persons on this forum: Nandina and Dchall_San_Antonio", why?

Michael

pnbrown,

Not rye but fermented rye flour solution as described above has itself beneficial microorganisms in it and lactic acid (steriliser against harmful microbes) and antioxidants which significance was not discussed yet on this forum but it's great. It's not all but it's short explanation. Of cause it is possible to grow rye on-site and then make flour from it, if you want.

Michael said:
By the way, you excluded yourself from your quote above, "There are only 2 noble persons on this forum: Nandina and Dchall_San_Antonio", why?

They are always exact in expressions. I am not.
;-)

I have never used a synthetic fertilizer on my houseplants and that would involve over 30 years experience. I simply use my prepared compost, a little mixed-in wood ashes and a seaweed fertilizer. Yes, the life of the soil organisms needs to be taken into consideration; but, I have found that by adding some fresh compost to the pots, from time to time, my soil health remains intact. Also, when repotting, I add more fresh compost to the mix. I must admit that I've never had a problem with fungus gnats, white flies or any other critters or disease as long as I participated in keeping the soil alive. I've grown many vegetables and ornamentals in this manner...much to the delight of my neighbors.

If the op is still interested in vegan fertilizer.I found some at Midwest hydroponics is Minneapolis MN. Biothrive from
General Organics. Google it for more info.

Curt ;-)

To perhaps answer the original question, I have a lot of vegan materials already in use around my home that I use in my plants. I keep one small and one large watering can in my kitchen. When I steam vegetables, boil vegetables, soak or boil beans, when I am sprouting seeds or rinsing sprouts, I recycle these for fertilizer. I pour these juices into (an unfortunately-shaped) small Ikea water pitcher I should have known better about. When it is full, or if I am accumulating a lot of 'kitchen greywater' (no ASRF - animals, salt, rice, fat), it goes into the large watering can. That's my regular houseplant fertilizer.

You can also make compost tea out of two widely available plants, both of which can be found in Wisconsin -- comfrey and stinging nettle. These two plants have extraordinary minerals and micronutrients in their leaves pulled from the deep soil. The plants can be used to make a potent fermented fertilizer in the summertime when they are naturally occurring in a wild place near you. Here are two links to sample tutorials on how to make these vegan liquid fertilizers.

http://www.the-organic-gardener.com/Comfrey.html
http://heartgarden.com.au/composttea.asp

I'm sure you can find other tutorials that are more / less detailed, suited to your needs, etc. I have found lots of great tutorials on eHow.com and Instructables.com, some with videos.

Frontier, the organic spice / medicinal company based in Iowa, does distribute comfrey and nettles in bulk. Check your local co-op or health food store if you would like to proceed in small quantities. However, fresh is usually better.

Some advantages to using these "weeds" as fertilizer is that they are: widely available, considered pests or invasive, rich in nutrients, vegan. Some drawbacks include: mostly seasonal availability, outdoor space needed to ferment it, stinkiness, stinging nettle hurts if you touch it, comfrey is perhaps invasive to plant or keep. Organic fertilizer can be enhanced with fungi, bacteria, and other microorganisms that are closer to your plants' natural environment; synthetic fertilizer does not have those capabilities.

Anyway, my setup isn't exactly like this because we are an omni household. I compost eggshells separately from the vermicomposting bins because they are too sharp for the worms. I prefer to treat my worms humanely -- none are killed intentionally and I have been sorting them by hand with great care. What helps most is that worms are vegan, meaning they make a great match with other vegans and vegans' waste supply. Keeping worms to eat my organic waste has meant that many, many pounds of waste are now my fertilizer rather than taking up space in a landfill. As a former vegan, I think a lot more now about animals' role (or not) in our lives. For me, at least, the environmental benefits outweigh my qualms about keeping animals.