To really do the job right, you need to start around June 1st to "start over". That's called a Renovation. You need to get a soil test and correct any problems, then kill the existing grass and then lay down the seed around August 15th or just a tad later. Don't underestimate the job - it is BIG.

Aside form the soil test, is there anything I should do now? (aside from trying to keep the crab grass from seeding, lol)

Now? You could start adjusting the soil once you have the results. You could also start doing things to raise the levels of organic matter in the soil. Mulch all your leaves when they start to fall. Top-dress with good compost.

Thanks! Should I kill off the existing vegetation before I topdress or just place it right on top of what's there?

I don't think it is to late to do anything.
How big is your lawn and how much do you want to spend on it?
I would immediatly use round up on the area.
It tells you on the container when it is safe to seed. I think two weeks.
I would then rent a automatic seeded from home depot. I think it is called a slit seeder.
At the same time I would put down starter fertilizer.
I would buy a bluegrass-fescue mix for sun and shade.
The amount of success in a new lawn depends on keeping the seed moist which means lightly spaying it a few times a day.
I should look fairly decent by end of October.

Our home depot does not rent slit seeders, so check to make sure yours does.

A2Z, be very careful about taking any advice that tells you that you can slap in a renovation in no time, and do it without testing and adjusting the soil. If your current lawn isn't succeeding, it is highly unlikely that the increased demands of newly-sown seed are going to do better.

A lawn renovation is a BIG project. You don't want to be doing it twice. Plan and hit all the important steps to make sure that it works well.

DMOORE66, aren't you the person that swore his lawn was horrible and one thread and told someone else to plant the exact same thing on another thread? Even though it didn't even contain the requested grass that the OP requested?

Not going to get in a pissing contest with you Andy, but this is the best time of the year to improve a lawn.
Telling a2zmom to do nothing doesn't seem like good advice to me.
Trying to help, not trying to discourage!

ABSOLUTELY this is the best time to renovate a lawn. I just did a repair renovation this weekend myself.

What I'm trying to do is tell A2Z that starting the prep work in June is the best way to succeed. Advocating skipping soil tests and using a "kill/throw/pray" approach without understanding what you're dealing with is asking for problems. Possibly big problems. A2Z missed the prep window.

So you think she should keep her crappy crabgrass lawn and do nothing until next June??

dmoore, I've been living with the crabgrass for quite a while. One more year won't kill me. I'm finally doing something about it because it's getting into my flower beds, which is actually a much bigger concern. Plus, it would make a nice contrast to my beds.

andy, I will start by doing a soil test. Once I have some results, look for me to come back and post some more regarding next steps to improve the soil.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice.

A2Z, while I do hundreds of detailed soil analyses for free a year, unfortunately I don't do them on this forum. If nobody else can help you, feel free to Google my username and the term "soil management" and you'll find places where I do that work.

Make sure to get a good soil test, with micronutrients included. They're not that expensive, ranging from $13 to $20 for a good test.

Andy, thanks so much for the offer. That's incredibly generous of you.

I was figuring on heading over to my co-op extension, but I will make sure that they include micronutrients. If not, you may hear from me.

I only live miles from you in Warren County.
Lime is about the only thing you may need!

dmoore, I head up to Warren county to visit Donaldson's nursery a few times a year.

I have a soil test question. My co-op extension offers the folling tests. Do I need more than the first test?

test 1: Soil fertility analyses (Included with purchase of soil testing kit) Nutrient availability (P, K, Ca, Mg, Cu, Mn, Zn, Fe, B), acidity (pH).

test 2: Includes soil fertility plus soluble salt level, organic matter content, and textural class.

test 3: Includes soil fertility plus soluble salt level, organic matter content, sand/silt/clay percentages, textural class, and gravel content.

bill, I suspect one application of Roundup will not kill the creeping charlie. That stuff is teancious!

test 1 includes everything that you can adjust through fertilizer. If you want to know the exact content of the soil itself, then go ahead with the other tests. As a practical matter though, if they say your soil has a lot of clay and not enough sand, what are you going to do? Dig out your entire yard and replace it? That is the only way to get rid of clay.

While soil tests are good tools, there is only so much you can learn about gardening from a spreadsheet. The rest is a hands on affair. It sounds like you have already identified the main obstacles - existing weeds, a mix of sun and shade from the trees, and soil that hasn't been fertilized. Address those things first and then worry about tweaking the fertilization schedule to optimize the nutrient mix for growing grass.

Bill, thanks.

I've been seriously gardening for ten years now, so I have a fair handle on the basic composition of my soil.

OK - here's my reasoning and timeline that I use to help others to plan renovations:

Week 1: Get soil samples and send out. Two week wait. Select variety of seed to use, and locate supplier.
Week 3: Review soil test, plan and get needed nutrients. First application of non-urea nutrients. Apply organic matter.
Week 4: Apply Lime if needed. Don't apply any urea-based fertilizers for two weeks following Lime.
Week 5: First Kill. Apply Round-Up. Begin daily watering three days after RU. Aearate if needed/desired.
Week 6: Keep watering daily. Scalp lawn. P and K applications, if required. Add any deficient micronutrients.
Week 7: Kill any germinated weeds/Poa with second round of RU. This minimizes weedy renovation.
Week 8: Scalp again and seed. Top-dress with 1/4" peat moss.

That's my 2 month schedule. What would those of you that say that I'm "wrong" cut out? Bill? Dmoore? Want a testimonial from one of the top lawn/soil amateur writers in the country on how he overshot the pH neutral point and wound up with alkaline soil because he added Lime without testing first? Not smart. Do you just start ripping random parts out of your car too when it acts up? If you're so knowing of what A2Z's soil test results are going to be, respond to this post with the results she'll get and we'll compare when her test results are back. Please include all the micronutrients and CEC prediction.

A2Z: Test #2 is probably best if it includes a CEC test. The Organic Matter test is actually very valuable.

Thanks billl z for your support.
I have had a lawn for 42 years with much success.
I never had a soil test.
If I saw the farmers spreading lime, I spread lime.
Hope az2mom gets started on her lawn now as this is the best time of the year to do so!
Andy, you told her to wait until next year, I don't think she has eight weeks left to start weeding.
a2zmom-Go to Donaldson's all the time. Lived in area 42 years. Live about 2 miles from Donaldsons!

Next to last sentence, meant seeding not weeding

Ah, DMOORE, we agree!!

If you believe that all of the steps that I outlined have value, then you don't have the eight weeks left this year. That's why I recommended doing it next year. It's clear that we strongly disagree on whether soil tests have value. You don't and I think they are critical. So, we've shown A2Z two approaches, and she can decide which is right for her.

"What would those of you that say that I'm "wrong" cut out? "

1-4 for starters. Then 6 and 7.

It isn't that they are bad steps, they just aren't time sensitive. You can get a soil test and lime any time. To establish a lawn, just use a starter fertilizer initially and then make any needed adjustments as it grows.

BTW - history completely contradicts your belief in soil testing. Almost nobody gets soil tests now and they weren't even available to homeowners until recently. Like a lot of modern technology, it can be a useful tool. However, people got along just fine without them in the not to distant past.

No Andy, we do not sgree.
I would not wait until next June.
I would start now.

Soil tests, many subsidized by individual states and performed by state universities, have been available to the homeowner since the late 1970's.

A2Z, do what makes sense to you. I have found that I was able to lower my fertilizer/lime/etc costs by about 20% by using soil tests and knowing what I need instead of guessing.

"BTW - history completely contradicts your belief in soil testing. Almost nobody gets soil tests now and they weren't even available to homeowners until recently. Like a lot of modern technology, it can be a useful tool. However, people got along just fine without them in the not to distant past."

What does that even mean? History contradicts your belief in soil testing? How does history contradict a belief in soil testing? That sentence is an example of making up something that sounds intelligent but has no basis in fact. Soil testing is an extremely important part of all the crops growing in this country. If we had a better understanding of soil science earlier in the 20th century then the dust bowl probably wouldn't have happened, or at least it wouldn't have been so bad. Turfgrass, like any crop, has its ideal soil conditions. The closer you can get to the ideal, the healthier the grass. How would you know if you need lime? Let's say you need lime, which one would you use? What about a phosphorus deficiency. Most fertilizers have little P, so are you supposed to guess if you have deficiencies? Andy's plan is the right way to do it. Sure you can do a renovation by omitting steps, but if you want the best results you will do it the right way. Rushing it will usually result in doing it again next fall.

Enough said.
I'm out of here!

Soil testing is new. People had lawns before the 1970's. They obviously didn't test the soil and somehow managed. Beyond that, almost nobody gets soil tests now to grow a lawn. Somehow they manage too.

With that said - for homeowners, soil tests can be great tools to get a showcase lawn. Since they are so cheap and easy, I would recommend that everyone gets them. However, they are completely unnecessary for 99% of the population to start a lawn. If you want that lawn to grow to its maximum potential over an extended period of time, then you should use a soil test to optimize nutrients and ph.

As for large scale agriculture, If my livelihood depended on maximizing yields - you bet I would test the soil before planting. A couple percent difference in growth makes all the difference in the world to a farmer. What does a 5% drop in grass growth mean to a homeowner? Instead of taking 30 days to look decent it takes 31.6? Big Whoop! By that point, you would have your soil test results back anyway and could make whatever adjustments you need then.

The bottom line is that for homeowners, the practical impact of testing the soil before planting vs after is completely insignificant. As such, a lack of soil test is absolutely not a reason to delay planting.

Excellent discussion! Don't bite my head off, but I also was going to reseed my crappy yard this year. I'm a little depressed after reading these posts because it looks like I might be late. I was thinking of round up, tilling, amending, seeding; but maybe this is more work than I thought. My soil is crappy, I know that. I just sent the soil sample off today but I know what they will tell me: "This is Crap!"

Great discussion everyone. I really appreciate all the input.

I am going to do a soil test, but I'll have to wait a bit -after one of the driest Julys on record, we had a tremendous amount of rain this week. I actually dug a planting hole on Saturday and it's been filled with water Sunday, Monday and Wednesday. I'm hoping by Monday things will have dried out a bit.

Andy, regarding your two month schedule - how much water? Leave the sprinkler on for a hour? Two? How deeply do I need to water?

And since I'm not seeding until week 8, I assume the watering is so the compost and other nutrients leach into the soil.

Hi, A2Z!

The type of watering that you want to do AFTER you have put down the first round of RoundUp is deliberately designed to cause weeds and Poa Annua to germinate. If you have an automatic sprinkler system, you want to water three times a day for 10 minutes or so per zone. The idea is to get the "bad stuff" to germinate so that it will be killed by the second round of RoundUp. Otherwise, RoundUp won't kill the seeds and they will come up with your new grass - which I'm sure you don't want!

If you don't have automatic sprinklers, then water it lightly as often as your schedule will allow (up to 3X a day).

You'll be doing that type of watering until the grass establishes a bit, and then slowly moving to deep and infrequent water (as little as once a week, but deeply) as time goes on.

jono gardener,
It may not be too late.
You need to tell what zone you live in so people can help with your problems.

I recently renovated my lawn, and I'm sure glad that I ran soil tests before I did. My PH was off the charts. My soil was extremely alkaline, which probably explains why the weeds had taken such a strong foothold on the lawn to begin with. Yes, run soil tests.