Thanks for the info, Bass. I really appreciate it.

Where did you get your Dollywood and Keener persimmons? Does your Keener fruit well without a male? Is the pulp clear or are there black specks in it?

Thanks again!

Mary Kay

I have all the aforementioned, but only Prok and Keener have fruited for me thus far.
Prok has LARGE fruit, good quality and flavor.

Keener has more 'fiber' in it than most Americans(some claim it is a hybrid with D.kaki, but I think not); this year, mine still have excessive astringency, even after becoming soft and somewhat shriveled on the tree - but that's not usually the case. I've not noticed the black specks of condensed tannins in the pulp, as is common with some of the really good selections, like Yates - but I don't pulp out any Keener fruits - Iuse them all for fresh eating or drying.

At Indiana NGA taste-test events at the Claypool orchard, year-in/year-out, the winner in taste comparisons is Early Golden.

Thanks, Lucky -

Any chance Prok will fruit without a male? Early Golden does sometimes, right?

I got mine as scion that I grafted into a D. Virginiana rootstock. The Keener fruited without a pollinator, the size is larger than average American persimmon. It is sweet good flavor, but I prefer the Kaki persimmon over any American variety.

Bass

MK,
I've read reams of material on pollenation and parthenocarpic fruit production in persimmons - and understand the science behind it, but real-world performance sometimes just doesn't jive.
Theoretically, the native male D.virginiana trees in my area should be of the 60-chromosome race, and should potentially set seedless fruit on 90-chromosome females - but I get seeded fruits - and have grafted no 90-c males(other than a piece of Szukis I grafted a couple of years ago, and it's not blossomed - and I've had seeded females fruiting for years.
Some varieties produce seedless fruits - as well as fruits with varying numbers of seeds - all on the same tree in the same season. So...I can't say with any certainty.

Early Golden and its close relatives, like Garretson, are noted for pushing an occasional 'male' branch, or branches possessing 'perfect' flowers - and acting as potential pollenizers for other female selections; which may be the source of seeds in my other fruiting selections.

Thanks,Bass, for the info on Keener. I have only tasted a kaki, so I'm just hoping I like the flavor of the American variety, too. I'm pretty sure I can't grow kaki in zone 5b. I've considered Rosseyanka, but have never read anything in the forums about it having a great taste.

Lucky - thanks for taking the time to relate your experiences with pollination. I would like to plant a szukis to help my pollination issues but haven't been able to find a U.S. nursery selling it.

I appreciate this forum so much.

Mary Kay

Szukis is on the list at Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery, but is currently listed as unavailable.
John H.(Nuttree) Gordon, Jr. nursery, in Amherst, NY used to offer it; don't know what's going on with JHG - I've not been able to find his nursery website in some time; seems like someone told me he'd had some health issues.
Don't know that I've seen it offered from other sources.

Claypool F-100 is another 'bisexual male' that's reputed to have better fruit quality than Szukis, but I've never seen it offered anywhere, and have never had access to scionwood of it.

England's nursery (http://www.nuttrees.net/) lists Claypool F-100 and Szukis on the list of available scionwood.

Alex

Mary Kay, I don't have the knowledge or experience of the growers above, so here is my contribution. Of your 3 choices, I grow Prok and Dollywood, only Prok has fruited so far. It is seedless, flavor seems to be the same as a seeded Prok, and the size is smaller.
The native trees here are 60 chromosome, but I don't think I have any males or females close to my orchard. I have 7 other 90's that all produce seedless fruit, I have never had a seed in any of my 90's.
I have a different view of pollination than some of the other contributors, and would welcome comments.
I do not believe that a 60 is required to produce a seedless 90. I don't think that I have any close here, and I had seedless fruit in New Orleans before moving to Tennessee, and do not believe that there were any native Virginiana in that large city or in my subdivision.
I know I have a lot to learn, so comments would be welcome.
Benny

Lucky and Alex - Thanks for the szukis ideas. I've emailed John H. Gordon but haven't gotten anything back yet. I don't think Nolin River is going to carry szukis anymore. Unfortunately I don't know how to graft, may have to learn if I want a szukis! Grimo Nut Nursery in Canada lists Szukis for sale but minimum shipping to the US is very expensive. I should have never read "Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden" - then I wouldn't even know about Szukis! :) I'd take a Claypool F-100 if I could find it!

Benny - good to hear that you got fruit on your Prok without a known pollinator. How long did it take for the Prok to fruit? Is it going to be a very large tree?

Thanks again!

Mary Kay

Mary Kay, I think the Prok took about 3 years to fruit, but it is only about 4 ft. tall. It was transplanted, which slowed it down, I prune it some to shorten it, and I have rocky soil which slows the growth of all my trees.

I don't know how large the tree will get. Some people think it is a hybrid, so maybe it would be smaller than a Virginiana.

I have one here on a Virginiana rootstock with a 1' Sheng interstem, grafted the Prok on top this spring and got about 2' of growth on the Prok, this was in a pot, planted the tree in the ground about 2 weeks ago. I don't know how this experiment will turn out, I am hoping to get a smaller tree.

Clifford England will graft a Szukis or F-100 for you if you ask him. He says that the F-100 at the Claypool orchard makes fruit, but his does not.

Benny

Like Benny, I've seen some folks make claims that Prok may be a hybrid; I don't think so - there's nothing about it that makes me think so, but it does make a BIG fruit.
The Prok that I have that's old enough to fruit was topworked about 4 ft up in a well-established seedling that benefits from being located near my neighbor's septic leach field - it's a vigorous grower, and in that spot, I anticipate that it will make a pretty large tree.

Benny, I'd be interested to hear how your Sheng interstem experiment goes. Another one to consider might be Hokkaido, as it's supposedly a 'dwarf' of sorts - though I've not noticed it being significantly slower growing here than, say, Saijo, Ichi, or Hana Fuyu.

Now, this is my sort of topic, those of you who know me would agree lol...

1. I recommend you get all persimmons from Cliff England at England's Orchard & Nursery. He has an impressive variety of scion wood and a number of grafted trees, as well. Cliff only sends out quality stuff and always for a very reasonable cost. I just got, among other things, the American persimmon cv. 'Dollywood' and a seedling selection of Cliff's of an Asian persimmon which he calls cv. 'Shin-Na-Da'. I'm not recommending Cliff just because he's a great friend, but because I know of no other nursery (for jujube, paw paw, persimmon, nuts, mulberries) that I would rather patronize, this from the first time I placed an order well before I knew him.

2. Prok. Well, first-of-all, John Gordon jr. told me that George Slate selected 'Prok' (and 'Korp') are seedlings (open-pollinated) of the American persimmon cv. 'Pieper'. That's a smaller (much) persimmon; in the distant future, it will be genetically evaluated so this matter will be settled one-way-or-the-other; to me, although a bit similar to an American persimmon like cv. 'Morris Burton', I feel the foliage and new stems are a little too rubbery; it puts on a second-flush of growth, as does Diospyros kaki; the flower's a bit too large. Yet, I'll wait until it's tested. As for Burbank's cv. 'Keener', I think it has as much chance of being a hybrid persimmon as Slate's 'Geneva Red'/'Geneva Long'; Burbank said he failed - failed at making a good fruit or making a hybrid? and when did he say this, before or after 'Keener'. As David LaVergne said to me, Burbank may have had a lot of failed attempts as a result of, unknowingly, using 60-chromosome strains, and not just 90-c. What really interests me is to know: can 90-chromosome American persimmons freely hybridize (open-pollinated, without double-mentoring) with 90-chromosome Asian perismmons (or D. lotus, D. rhombifolia, for that matter, all being 90-c).

3. As Lucky points out, cv. 'Early Golden' wins the taste-tests and cv. 'Yates' is excellent and very large, although not as large as the questionable 'Prok'.

4. As for cv. 'Early Golden' being not just parthenocarpic but also self-fertile, Jerry Lehman told me that this is over-stated and there are not that many male limbs set forth, even on a mature tree. Yet, seedlings produced by crossing 'EG' with itself produce female seedlings, from which good cultivars often come.

5. Lucky, I spoke with John Gordon jr. a few weeks ago on the phone. He's doing good, but his home is not any longer on the orchard. Nuttreesnorth.com is now his page. As for F-100, if Cliff doesn't have it, you can ask Jerry - I should be getting some this spring, I'll send it to you.

6. Lucky, interesting: yet, I think, like you suspect, maybe the few male limbs on your Early Golden-family trees are responsible for the seeds.

7. Benny, I wish I knew for sure. Wes Rice believes that persimmons, in general, are parthenocarpic. Put it this way, I've found many persimmon (female) trees planted in areas without males and they have fruit; these are not cv. 'Meader' for sure.

8. Mk_in-Ohio, well... all of the sources I can think of have only scion wood. BUT, you can contact Cliff England and ask him if he would graft 'Szukis' for you. http://www.nuttrees.net/

9. Benny, interesting - I'll have to look into that; re: F-100 not always setting fruit.. I've been curious about that cultivar for a while. Also, I agree with Lucky - I'm very interested in finding out how your D. kaki interstem experiment works out.

10. Lucky, cv. 'Hokkaido' is only supposed to stay true to its dwarfing form when grafted upon it's own species rootstock, not D. lotus or D. virginiana; for your area, that likely means I suppose you didn't grafted it onto D. kaki.

Steve

(p.s. changing my user name soon)

Lee Reich is an excellent garden writer but not the final authority on best tasting persimmons. I'd run with the taste test mentioned or with someone who's growing a wide range of clones- particularly if it was nearby or in a similar zone.

I did get a chance to taste Szukis, as I manage an orchard where Lee did the original consultation and they are very tasty, but I've only sampled a couple of other varieties that I grew on a too shady part of my property. They were more astringent as grown there. I think Szukis main advantage may be its early ripening. I'm guessing Early Golden enjoys the same advantage.

Yates is fantastic and for me it's seedless. I have many wild persimmons and a Meador. Meador and wild trees have seeds. Yates flowers well before the other trees and is seedless. Here's a link to a photo of Yates. You can see a tiny, undeveloped seed. There are usually one or two of these in each fruit. I don't even notice them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Yates pic

My Yates is from Edible Landscaping. It grew one year in a pot and went into the ground 5 years ago. It has fruited the last 3 years: 2 fruits, then 4 last year, and 21 this year. Fruit about 2" with no fully develped seeds. Had well over 100 quarter inch fruits that self thinned. The tree is about 9 feet tall. It put on over 2 feet of new growth this year which I cut back by half in late spring. It's never been fertilized. I live in zone 7 central Virginia with many wild trees I assume are 90c. I may get seeds as it gets older - I'll let you know. I have young Prok, Early Golden and Morris Burton growing next to it, and Meador, Dollywood, Rosseyenka, and Nikita's Gift elsewhere. Hopefully and can give more insight into these next year.

Benny - thanks for the answer on Prok.

Lucky and Steve - I learned a lot from your posts. Hopefully I will put it to good use.

Harvestman - good points - thanks.

Dfranz - thanks for all the great info on Yates. Looking forward to your future updates on all your varieties. Do the black specks in Yates' pulp bother you? Will it be a large tree or can it be kept small?

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you -

Mary Kay

The mature Yates tree at Edible Landscaping is 20-25 feet tall and not as wide. So far, it's my most vigorous grower. I think the fruit is very clear, but I confess black spots wouldn't bother me, and I could be overlooking them. I think Rosseyanka also might grow for you in zone 5 and be worthy of consideration. It's 3/4 American and 1/4 Kaki and should fruit without a male. If I could have only one tree it would be Yates.

Hi,

I'm planning to plant Peiper persimmon in South West of Ontario. Any body has any experience with this cultivar? Does it need male and polinator? How is the quality of fruit like flavour, sugar and color and how big is the size of fruit? Is it suseptible to any disease or pest?
I really appreciate your opinon and help.

Thanks a lot!

I like all of the selected varieties much better than the wild or non specified ones. I also bought seedlings and scion wood from John Gordon and was very happy with what I received. I am hoping that many of the grafts take. Time will tell.
Much of the research shows that it is not just the female, but also the male that makes a huge difference in the best flavor. Many experts also claim that unseeded fruit is smaller and qualitatively inferior to the seeded fruit. I can't personally confirm that. I had a Garretson persimmon a couple of years back that was completely spectacular and I bought the tree. It hasn't fruited yet. I have had many Early Goldens, Meaders, and Rubies. They were all good and distinctive. I still think the Garretson is better than they are. I bought Yates and NC-1, just because it is so much earlier than the others. I would be able to stretch the season out longer. We don't get as much heat as a lot of places back east, particularly at night, so I didn't want to choose anything too late.
John S
PDX OR

Hi all,

My Meader persimmon has fruit for the first time and they seeded. The tree is a multi grafted with a early golden. So, Lucky P. was right about Early golden sport a male branch that pollinated the Meader. By the way Early golden taste excellent as advertised, but seeded.

Tony