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Fruit & Orchards

?'s on grape arbor training

12 years ago

We are putting in a grape arbor on our raised deck. 3 of the vines went in this year, 2 more will go in next spring.

The vines that went in this spring will ultimately need a trunk of 12' from ground to arbor top where we want the bulk of the vegitation. We do have the option of keeping lower "branches" along the way if the vines can support the growth or it some how facilitates our ultimate goal.

Last winter when I was planning this It was recommended by several that I give them a year to establish and then cut back hard. The idea being if you couldn't get there in one year's growth try again next year.

I don't understand why I can't leave the strongest growth on each come spring, as it will have me 1/2 way to the top already?

Node spacing on this years growth was around 4" if that is relevant, with the vines all throwing 3-4 arms of 3-6'.

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Comments (4)

fruitnut Z7 4500ft SW TX
12 years ago
rob:

I've tried it both ways, cut way back or keep the strongest. And I have some just like yours now. I'll cut back hard. You want a node spacing as big as possible in the trunk. Less places for suckers down the road. You lose almost nothing in growth going into year three by cutting back.

If I have any reservation it's your zone. Where grapes aren't fully hardy, multiple trunks are often recommended. Not sure that that makes any difference. If you want to start with several trunks cutting back hard would still be right.
windfall_rob
Original Author
12 years ago
From what I gather the multiple trunk training is primarily for the more tender varieties. To give them either ground heat with partial burial, snow cover, or just to allow for some dieback.

I made a point of choosing very hardy varieties knowing they would be receiving full exposure.

What sort of node spacing would indicate strong growth?

How far back would you make a "hard cut". All the way back to the previous years growth? Or leaving several nodes on this years growth.

Am I remembering correctly that any pruning would be done prior to bud swell? (this may be regional again)
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Grape vines will cover a structure like that fairly thickly over the years, might be hard to prune and maintain. I built a simple 4 posted gazebo once, planted four seedless grape vines at each of the posts, and over the years trained the grapes over the top, which had a loose lattice cover. The grape vines covered it in around 5 years, so you could barely see the structure below. It was useless as a garden house, because the birds were thick above it, leaving a mess below. The more over grown and dark it became, the more spiders took over inside, until the children avoided it. Without pruning and thinning, the grapes were abundant, but with really small berries. Only one of the grape vines had grapes worth eating, but it was the birdsÂ favorite as well. Luckily a windstorm blew it over, and we replaced it with muscadine vines on a trellis, which is pruned, thinned, and trained regularly. Adding the other annual vines the first few years sounds like a great idea, as long as the grape vines have lots of air around them for circulation and sunlight. The link below has instructions for rooting grape cuttings, but IÂve had good luck just sticking them two nodes deep in a large pot of potting soil. Let us know how your project is progressing. Here is a link that might be useful: Growing Grapes from Cuttings
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Fruitnut is dead on... some varieties will grow 20+ feet in a single season while others not much at all. A healthy, established vine should be able to reach your 12+ foot arbor in a single season. What I would do is let them grow all bushy this year (don't prune and remove all clusters) to produce the best root structure possible. Then cut them back to 2 or 3 buds late next winter. They will explode with growth - select the strongest shoot and train it up your arbor (again removing the clusters so that it will be more vigorous). I think I'd put all the vines in the ground if possible as they will suffer some shock when you transplant from the pots. Are we talking total shade all day? Also 6 vines seems like a lot for an arbor. Established grape vines are quite vigorous and can grow quite large - it could turn into a mess if they are too close together. Athena - I think it is always a good idea to let them establish the first year. You'll get thicker trunks with longer nodes (short nodes are a pain as fruitnut pointed out). The general rule is you want shoots at least as thick as a pencil all the way to the height / length you will be keeping. If not, cut it back and start over.
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Weeper: Like you I found a lot of conflicting information out there. I eventually stumbled across Prof. Tom Zabadal's youtube chanel. In a nutshell, he has taken a lot of his lectures aimed at commerical growers and posted them online. There is a lot of info, far more than most will want but better too much than too little. It is all based on a long career of field work in viniculture dating back to the early 70's and is very practical vs pure academia. All trainign methods are covered from the most common to obscure with pro's and con's for each system. Some 34 videos in all and still adding regularly. Guyot can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO_zyG5BGTg but if considering that you may want to look at umbtrella kniffen which should be more productive. He will also explain why. Trying to push the zone? in that case perhaps fan training is for you. Some of the later videos on pruning for winter injury are helpful in assuring that the training method and style of pruning do not promote winter die back. All in all I found a lot of info made available thru this channel. Its a bit like taking a course but you can skip thru the sections that are not applicable to what you want to do or learn. 34 videos and counting all posted here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ7llYhkcOS5eBIS9nMy4LA . Cheers, Dave
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fruitnut Z7 4500ft SW TX
12 years ago
rob:

My 1st year vines that grew strongly, in the greenhouse, had internodes of mostly 4-8 inches. Outside in drought and heat about 1-2 inches. The greenhouse vines grew 20 ft or more on the longest cane. I only left one cane. Outside several canes sprawling grew about 3-4ft.

I'll cut back to leave a few nodes of this years growth probably in March just prior to bud swell.
windfall_rob
Original Author
12 years ago
Thanks fruitnut this is helpful

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