Snapper is a great choice.

Whatever you get, just make sure its rear-wheel drive. My son lives in Austin and has a St. Aug yard. He has a Lawn-Boy 10684 (Insight Series) and has been very pleased with it. I use the same model here on my 'whatever' yard (fescue, poa anna, Bermuda, crab grass, weeds) and find it to be a very good and dependable mower. The Insight series has a wide selection of models/features.

Here is a link that might be useful: Insight Series

I have a 6 year old Toro with 6HP Briggs.Would not trade it for anything.

In the $500 range, Snapper EZ Speeds (used to be Hi Vac) are great, as are the Toro Super Recyclers. They are very different in operation, though, so it would be good to try them each first. I lived where you live for decades and cut thick St. Augustine with Snappers for all of them. The Honda Xenoy-deck models might be okay, but I don't know. You should also check out the Ariens mowers, as they use the same great drive system as the Snapper.

In the $350 range, Toro Recycler (no "super") and Lawnboy Insights seem to be really good choices. I would not actually recommend the Snapper lower-end or the John Deere copies, because their drive systems appear to be identical to the cheap ones on the MTD/Cub mowers - not durable.

Toro 20017 works for me....replaced the Atomic blade with a Gator, get a much better mulch.

Thanks, I have been a lot of reading and have a follow up question. I have a farily small and typical Houston lawn, which includes a lot of pivoting and pulling the mower back. I'm a bit concerned about about the sensa / PP systems. It doesn't look like LB even offer a non sensa mower, and I have to sacrifice RWD to get a manual control on the Toro end.

Thoughts?

Josh, your concerns are a big reason I've been Snapper fan. The EZ Speed mowers have a true differential and no - zero - extra drag on pullback. You'd have to check, but I also think their wheelbase is a little shorter than some others', which also gives a little extra manueverability. Altogether, it makes for a mower that works very well in tight places.

Josh - I was wondering the same thing about those sensa-speed mowers. From the feedback I've read on this forum, it seems like the stopping and pivoting isn't a big problem - you just pull back on the handle, turn, set it down and push again. Not having used one though, I cant speak from experience. I was at first going to avoid them for your same reasoning, but I think I've become comfortable with the idea. I'll let you know - if I can ever find a decent model in stock at this time of year!

It seems there might be a "switch" at least for the LB that allows for control, however I would like one to work out of the box. Also, I have read that if you follow the instructions there shouldn't be a problem pulling back. However, I'm not sure I want to stand there and wait for it to disengage every time...I do a lot of backing up on this yard.

So it looks like it's a bit of all or nothing. I can get a craftsman that meets these needs for a good cost, but the build quailty is suspect. Or I can go to the far end and get a snapper and spend twice the money. Decisions, Decisions.

I'm wondering which Craftsman you are thinking of? I'm not at all sure that their rwd models would be any better (or even as good) as a Toro/Lawnboy in terms of pullback drag. The fwd models may be, but they are usually (always?) single speed and pretty non-durable. To engage the drive on my father-in-law's that I just worked on, you have to move lever back and forth like a large throttle lever. I doubt that's going to be easy to engage frequently. Usually to stop the mower from rolling on these, people pick up the front wheels off the ground. But that comes with its own hassles.

I was just looking at them in general. My thinking was that if I could manually disengage the drive it would be easier that waiting for it to disengage itself. Good points though.

The issue on all these drives is really about various ratchet mechanisms that allow the transmissions to decouple completely from the drive wheels. It's not that the wheels won't stop being driven when you release the lever or bail or whatever. The problems comes from the extreme gear reduction to go from engine speeds to wheel speed - if the drive is still connected to the wheels (if the ratchets haven't released), then pulling or pushing the mower means having to spin up the whole transmission, resulting in drag. On the Personal Pace models, the mower has to coast forward a foot or two once you let off the drive for the ratchets to release the transmission from the wheels (but again, the actual drive clutch releases immediately).

The big difference on the Snapper is that when the drive clutch (a belt tensioner, like on the Personal Pace mowers) is released, the wheels are only connected to about half of the full gear reduction because that clutch is located halfway "downstream" of the reduction format. There are no ratchets at all, but pushing/pulling the mower adds very little drag because only the differential with one reduction and no worm gears is being driven. So there's no need for ratchets, and you have no drag as soon as you release the drive clutch. You'd have to see all this in person on each mower for it to make sense, but it does.

As far as I could tell on the fwd Craftsman, the clutch that is inside the teensy transmission is also downstream of a worm gear. So again, maybe they don't need ratchets. I'm not actually sure if they have them or not. But it's the system of engagement/disengagement of the drive clutch itself that seems clumsy, and that's probably by design to prevent lots of engagement cycles. I'm guessing it's just not made to withstand lot of that abuse, and instead is intended to be engaged once for a yard's worth of work before being disengaged.

So it sounds like I need to save a few more pennies and just pony up to the Snapper. I'm not totally against this, I grew up pushing around a snapper for many years. Great equipment.

Thanks all.

Find yourself a Lawn-Boy dealer that has a new old stock or good used two-cycle mower for that tough grass. After getting a two-cycle Lawn-boy I got rid of all my 4 cycle mowers fast. Rear wheel drive is the best way to go and don't let the wheel ratchets on the LB mowers bother you, just let it coast two or three inches and they will unlock and roll back with ease. Over greasing the wheel zerks will prevent the ratchets from dis-engaging properly, one shot a couple of times a season is enough.

I might just pick up a LB 10685 @ HD and give it a try. If I don't like it, I can always take it back.

Thanks all.

I know some have questioned the longterm reliability of the JDs, but I just bought a used JS40 and so far it's a great machine.

Plenty of power, great cut, fast, caster wheels in front.

I also like the bag that swings open at the rear. Easy to empty.

I definitely would look for the Lawnboy 10685..I just received it from Amazon 2 days ago..for $270 delivered free..worked on the 1st pull and the sens-a-speed on it is awesome..

HI richlo my brother just picked up a 10685 has a lot of drag backing up. also would not stay running for more then 5 minutes. had carb cleaned at his cost. lawnboy says not covered under warrenty. also seams very lite duty compared to my snapper.he is bringing it back today and going to look at a snapper.

What a crock of crud. There's enough misinformation here to fertilize all of texas. I don't know where to start, so I'll just wade in.

LB does make several manual-control drive models, like the 10684, 10780, etc. It's called 'Variable Speed'.

You don't 'stop and wait' for PP,ES or SS to 'disengage'. As you approach a stopping point, you stop walking and let the mower coast forward to the point (maybe 12" or so). At that time the drive is out, so you pull back. There's no waiting. Even if the drive does not release, it's not that difficult to pull it back - the wheels aren't locked. Plus, on the 2007 models, LB advertises a new transmission that makes pull-back easier.

Turning around, or pivoting at the end of a row: you don't 'pull the handle up'. The sliding handle is spring loaded and returns by itself when you stop pushing. Besides, you don't have to consciously 'disengage' the Sens-a-Speed to turn around. When you get to the turnaround, you just push the handle down and pivot on the rear wheels. When you get lined up like you want, you just walk forward. You don't have to take any special actions. Even with a manual rear drive, all you do is let go of the bail at the turnaround then grab it again to restart.

Hey Greenman3

Im not sure what your bro is doing but I had zero problems turning the thing or pulling back - so Im not sure once again what your bro is doing...Saxman is correct..I guess it may not be for everyone but I cant see a problem with it..I love it..and I have zero experience with any selfpropelled mower..

Great info all, I appreciate it.