It has taken 24 years in this house to get a thick, lush, green lawn established and letting it die and starting over from seed isn't the path we want to take. It has taken time, money, and work to get it to where it was and just letting it die is the dumbest option I can think of, especially in a drought. I suppose you have a lot of experience with temps of 95 and drought in Canada?

Any other input?

Karen

Nothing accomplished, nothing gained seems to apply here.

Woody, I never understand you saying stuff like that or why you always do as if others aren't supposed to give a darn because you don't. And, if you let my grass go dormant every year the way you do those 10 acres, I'd fire you.

I completely agree with you, Karen!

I agree bestlawn, I'd fire his butt, too.

Karen

forgive for having a perspective to share.
you dont think i give a darn? that is a big assumption.
in my experience the grass always recovers from dormancy. pardon me for sharing my observations.
Did i say to let it die? No. i said 'if' all, or part of it dies.
yes i have lots of experience with drought and hot temperatures. it gets hot here too.
forgive me for suggesting a 'dumb' option.

I found it difficult to imagine when you told us three years ago that you let the fields in your care go dormant in summer. I don't remember if you are in charge of ball fields, golf courses, or what they are, but I don't see paying for brown grass and calling it good lawn care. To each their own and if they like it I love it, but I don't understand always telling others to do the same when they express they don't want their grass to go dormant. A person asks how to water in summer, and you tell them not to worry it about and just let it go dormant or just let it die. I don't see that being the answer when clearly that is what they're trying to prevent. As Karen mentioned, who wants their hard work going down the drain and have to start over every year? And, why suggest there is no point in learning or even bothering to take care of their lawn? How is that the purpose of a lawn care forum? I can't say I disagree with you about everything and respect what you have to offer, but I never understood you in this regard.

Karen, as I mentioned above to the original poster, letting it be dormant is okay if that's what you want. As WoodyCrest mentioned, there is no way to know if it has died until you see that it doesn't turn green again when temps are favorable and water is available. In its dormant state there are no clues, but don't think dormant grass does not need water, too, because it does. Give it a sprinkle once or twice a week but not enough to break dormancy. This is the only way to ensure it won't die from drought. Or keep it green if that's what you want by watering one inch a week. During extended periods of heatwave and drought, divide that one inch by two and irrigate half an inch twice a week.

I wouldn't blame anyone for accusing me of opening a new gweb membership under the name Auteck. Even though I didn't.

For the record I let the grass grow longer in certain parts of my yard. The rest I mowed at 1.8" The longer grass went dormant first. The shorter grass... a lot of it is still green.

Quirky, 1.5 inch grass he suggested cuts off the food factory. Probably 1.8 too. Newer varieties might be mowed that low (though it doesn't look as nice usually) but those aren't the most common lawns.

Wow! Once or twice a week! We haven't done nearly that much. I guess we'd better step it up some.

I'm not opposed to having a period of dormancy during the drought, but, as I said, we just don't want to lose the lawn completely and forever.

Thanks, bestlawn, for the input. I will try to water at least a little more than what we've been doing.

Karen

the shorter grass (1.5-2") of the fairways is much more dense than the exact same grass of the rough mowed at 3"+

this became clearly evident when i had to adjust the position of a fairway due to safety reasons. at soil level the fairway grass is much more dense than the rough.
as we all know, dense thick turf is the best defense against disease ,weeds etc. Thick turf at 2" is more dense.

i have thousands of pics over the last 6 years of different turf on different soil types in all times of the season thru all kinds of conditions from drought('dead', brown and crunchy), to flooding ,to frozen in the frost of late october, and some in the dead of winter with no snow cover Far too many to post here to back my comments. i think i do deserve a least a little respect for my opinion, or take it with a grain of salt,thats up to you.

please note this is in my experience. Obviously,this does not apply to everyones lawn. My lawn care method is as simple as it gets. Clearly i dont follow the 'reccomended' methods, but i too deserve to voice my perspective without ridicule.

You're right, Woody.
I apologize.

thank you :)

aug 2003...burnt, crunchy, crispy and dusty....
{{gwi:102298}}

aug 2004... green and luscious...
{{gwi:102300}}

nature taking its course.

Wow! Big difference...

That KBG looks awesome!

Wow! Once or twice a week! We haven't done nearly that much. I guess we'd better step it up some.

I'm not opposed to having a period of dormancy during the drought, but, as I said, we just don't want to lose the lawn completely and forever.

Well, if you want to keep it green and beautiful, 1" a week (delivered either once a week or 1/2" twice a week) will do great.

In really hot weather, more may be required at least in some areas. If I use 1" a week on my southern face, it won't go dormant but it does continuously look like it's thinking about it (partially the fact that the face also tilts south and receives all-day sun plus all-day reflection from the light tan house). There I go closer to an inch and a half.

Some people will tell you never to do that, I'm sure, and they could very well be right. However, that's what it takes to keep it green and soft.

If you're under drought restrictions or don't mind the dormancy, half an inch or so every two weeks will be just sufficient to keep the grass alive without waking it up. A quarter inch or so every week will do the same.

Your mileage will differ depending on temperatures and natural rainfall.

The argument's kind of amusing. :-) Woody doesn't mind dormant grass, Bestlawn, you, and I don't like it. From a care standpoint, it doesn't really matter. From the aesthetic standpoint I find green rich grass to be much more attractive than brown sleeping stuff.

I love your garden! And your grass looks a thousand times better than your neighbor's!

Morpheus,
thick lush green grass is preferred for sure, but when watering is not an option, then brown it is.

Believe me, by the time the grass turns brown i am ready for a break. May and June leave me no time for anything besides mow mow mow.

In 2004 it rained almost every other day all season... by early sept i was praying for frost!!

aug 2004
{{gwi:102301}}

same area 2002...the green same as above is in the left center of the pic.
{{gwi:102302}}

You Canadians don't believe in bunkers do you? ;-)

thick lush green grass is preferred for sure, but when watering is not an option, then brown it is.

Believe me, by the time the grass turns brown i am ready for a break. May and June leave me no time for anything besides mow mow mow.

Exactly. I hope you didn't think I was criticizing; it's really just a matter of personal preference.

My 7,000 square feet with a robotic mower isn't exactly a major stress to maintain. The water isn't terribly expensive, although I could save myself several hundred dollars a season if I didn't water.

With installation of the Hunter PGP rotors in progress plus the dripline system for the gardens, watering's about to get easier. I finally got tired of devoting hours to it when I could be pulling weeds, maintaining the gardens, or trimming things that need to be trimmed. Plus I was never able to water at the appropriate time before. Now I can, and get it done all before I get up in the morning. :-)

Morpheus: so you decided on the sprinkler system? Congrats. My dad finally got one a few years ago and lamented all those hours he wasted watering the lawn when he could be doing other things. Some years you will only activate it a handful of times, but it is still nice to have. I hope this means you ar e planning a full renovation instead of overseed.

heelsfan,

from a maintenance perspective bunkers are a pain in the rear. there are no bunkers on the course now, but there are plans to install a few in the fall. from a golf perspective the more difficult the course the better! :)

no critisizm taken morpheus. :) hmmm...robot mower eh.

Morphus,

I agree with Subywu. If you've got an irrigation system, a total renovation will be much easier and I think you'll be happier with your results.

I think Subywu and I both renovated our yards (rounded them up) in the fall of 2005 with elite KBGs. He's got an awesome lawn (and some really nice Riverbirch trees too!)

If I recall there was someone else (Maybe Philes? I'm sorry if it wasn't you.), who tried a regular overseed at the same time with the elite KBGs who wasn't nearly as happy with the result.

If I recall correctly, that person posted here that if they had to do it over again, they would have done a total renovation.

Morpheus: so you decided on the sprinkler system? Congrats. My dad finally got one a few years ago and lamented all those hours he wasted watering the lawn when he could be doing other things. Some years you will only activate it a handful of times, but it is still nice to have. I hope this means you ar e planning a full renovation instead of overseed.

Yeah, I got a very nice raise (well, far better than I expected for a place that's been running in the red for 95 years straight). Taking the cost as a negative and adding in all the advantages expressed monetarily, the answer came out on the positive side of the line by far. (If you get the feeling that I'm overly mathematical, you're right.)

Full--or at least 95%--renovation is now in the cards. I can program the system to go off at 10AM, 2PM, and 6PM and keep the seedbeds perfectly damp. I want what turf_toes has. I want it bad.

Now for all the mistakes I made. ;-)

I did it myself and ran Goodyear high-density polyethylene (is that spelled right? Well, close enough) 5/8" four-season line capable of taking burst pressures of 1500 PSI. I'll still air-blast it at the end of the season just to be sure.

There are five zones, each tapping no more than 5 gallons a minute via Hunter PGP and PGJ rotors. Coverage is head to head or even closer (I get a lot of wind). Precipitation rates range from 0.20 inches an hour in back (where I couldn't dig out across the lawn to the edges) to 0.55 (all other faces). I'll tuna can test and adjust timings from there.

I did use the hose bibs with the four-zone Orbit timers. Those come in handy for the dripline system I'm installing in the gardens as well.

This is not perfect, I know, but lawn disturbance was minimal, it's inexpensive, and it's easy for me to maintain.

no critisizm taken morpheus. :) hmmm...robot mower eh.

Yep, I love it. Her name is Myrtle.

The advantages are that I can be doing something else, it patterns in eight different directions, mulches into invisible little bits that disappear in no time, runs on battery so there are no fumes, is very quiet, and extremely safe (sensitive bumpers and if any wheel leaves the ground the blades shut down immediately until they re-contact or it's been too long and the program cancels itself). She's reasonably rain resistant--a sudden storm doesn't cause any issues.

Disadvantages are that you get addicted to a perfectly mowed lawn. Also, it's not the cheapest thing on the block. There's a little setup to tack down the wires, done once. When core aerating you need to avoid those or repair them. It takes longer to mow (but since I'm not doing it and don't have to monitor, it doesn't matter).

Here is a link that might be useful: The Robomower

Morpheus: you installed your sprinkler system yourself!?! Wow. In any case, provided it is done right, you just saved yourself a bundle!

A full renovation is the only way to go when you want the quality of elite KBG. Overseeding a healthy KBG lawn with elite KBG will ultimately disappoint. The effort you put into one full renovation will be less than trying to overseed just twice with far better results.

Morpheuspa,

Subywu is right, in my opinion. Though I will say it was SCARY for the first few weeks after rounding up and then waiting for the grass to germinate...

Be prepared for your neighbors to think you are nuts. But their slings and arrows will be worth it in a year or two when they're all walking by with a slack-jawed expression and asking you what kind of 'frankengrass' you have in your yard.

(Two years ago, this one guy walked by after I had killed the lawn and said something about how 'someone should call the homeowner's association.' I told him that the rules in the development are pretty lax (there are only 10 rules -- one being you need permission to remove any trees)

I told him that unless he thought my old lawn was a forest of tiny trees, there's nothing anyone else can or should have to say about it.

The same guy walked by the other day and made the 'frankengrass' comment. But then he wanted my advice on how to fix his own yard. I told him to buy a big bottle of roundup. :>) )

Despite the criticism, it really was worth the effort. Just make sure the old lawn is awake and growing when you apply the roundup. (Water it well and fertilize at least a week before rounding up). Wait a week (keep watering) and then do it again any place you missed.

Then you can seed.

Morpheus: you installed your sprinkler system yourself!?! Wow. In any case, provided it is done right, you just saved yourself a bundle!

It's reasonably close to right--I followed Stryker's advice, except for the part about not using the hose bibs. I would have needed a plumber to install the PVC piping by law here. Hoses are considered a temporary installation and don't require one, even if they're professional grade and buried.

The back is decidedly not perfect in terms of coverage. All other faces are.

someone should call the homeowner's association.'

Ours are similarly lax; I can do anything I want about the lawn and gardens. Tree removal requires permission from the Shade Tree Committee.

The STC, it's interesting to note, includes my mom. I couldn't and wouldn't try to get away with murder, but it does make getting a permit really easy ("Hey, Mom! Sign this!")

Though I will say it was SCARY

Yeah, the Dear Spousal Unit is freaking and it's still more than a month away. I'm already a wee bit nervous myself.

I know I shouldn't be. I know what I'm doing, and it'll be watered exactly when and how it should be. I have enough seed to completely fail once. I could even partially fail the second time and manage with the remainder.

The same guy walked by the other day and made the 'frankengrass' comment. But then he wanted my advice on how to fix his own yard. I told him to buy a big bottle of roundup. :>) )

Ha! Well, it's not frankengrass, just blue-blooded and well-bred. I already have the big bottle ready and waiting!

Be prepared for your neighbors to think you are nuts.

They already do. They're gonna think I flipped.

Subywu, Turftoes, or anyone...

I've finally decided to go with the Galaxy KBG blend when I overseed this fall. My builder put in the cheapest seed he could find. So my lawn is rye, kbg, fescue mix and a lot of weeds. I'm looking for opinions about whether to just overseed or roundup, then overseed. I'm concerned about overseeding since there is a lot of rye, weeds, and I think, quackgrass? Should I roundup and start over? If so, do I remove the dead grass and weeds before I seed? Do I try to rake in compost once the grass is dead? I know tilling is bad. Brace yourself, it's not pretty...

{{gwi:102303}}

{{gwi:102304}}

gbig2: if you have a sprinkler system, a complete overhaul is the only way to go if you want a showcase lawn. You would need to round up per Turf Toes' instructions (above). I would cut and bag the dead lawn to about an inch or so before seeding. Because of your slope, after you slit seed, definitely make sure you roll the seedbed and apply straw. If all goes well, the next year you can put down pre-emergent, control weeds, and patch a few spots here and there. Like Turf Toes, I did not have to overseed following a successful renovation. If you time the seeding right, you will even have a nice lawn (far better than your current patchy lawn) before winter arrives.

If you don't have a sprinkler system, I think you should still do the same as Turf Toes. It may be way too much to do at once but a good portion at a time that is manageable with a hose end sprinkler. Just define a lawn area maybe closest to your front door. Then do the other area next fall (2008). If you tackle the whole thing without an automatic sprinkler system, you really have to be very diligent with the watering and moving your sprinkler around.

gbig2,

Subywu and bestlawn are right, in my opinion.

Don't rototill. Get a slit seeder (after you've made sure to kill all the existing grass) and seed directly into it. The dead lawn will help maintain moisture and the roots will provide organic material to the soil as they decay.

I would take Subywu's advice and cut it down to about an inch or an inch and a half. Also, as he says, spend the $20 to rent a roller for the day from Home Depot. It will really help get the seed firmly against the soil.

Doing this without a sprinkler system is hard, but worth doing. My front yard was done entirely with above ground sprinklers. Last year, as I was doing the backyard, I followed blip01's advice and installed a sprinkler in the back after rounding up.

The areas where I dug the trenches were without grass on top and I can tell you that the germination wasn't as good there as the areas where I left the grass in place. The weeds were also more of a problem where the trenches had been dug up.

For what it is worth, after seeding the half of the back yard last year, I cut away strips of sod from the front and rented a trencher for Home Depot for the day.

I installed my own sprinkler system there using polypipe from home depot and using Hunter PGP heads. The system works great. But I really wished I had done it before I started this project.

My neighbor's thought I was nuts when I rounded up the yard. But they were really concerned about my sanity after seeing me run through that nice yard with a trencher the following year. It all worked out though. I put the sod back after filling the trenches and you would never know I did it to see it now.

Turf Toes: You did your own sprinkler system too!?! You guys are good!

Without a sprinkler system, there is no way I would be able to do my whole property. I would have to do it piece meal like Bestlawn suggested. Even then, it will require a lot of work.

Excellent feedback, thanks! I am only doing the front 10,000 square feet this year in the front yard. I was going to get 6 spike sprinklers and daisy chain them together. That should cover the whole area. Slit seeding is new to me. This will slice a slit in the ground then drop seed(s)?

Should I aerate at some point during the renovation to loosen the soil, or do I not need to aerate since I'm slit seeding?

The slope really doesn't come into play. I'm only doing the front which is %95 flat, do I still need straw?

Will the roundup cause me to lose soil microbes? Adding compost at some point during the renovation is not necessary or helpful?

Does anyone know if it's safe to use roundup around my well?

Can I get any generic glyphosate, I don't have to buy Roundup? Does anyone know the ballpark cost of Roundup for 10,000 sq ft?

Gbig:

only doing the front 10,000 square feet

Only. My whole lot is only a bit bigger than that. :-)

Try out the daisy-chaining before committing yourself. I wasn't happy with the coverage on three...I sure wouldn't have the pressure for six.

You can also buy sleds, get Hunter PGP rotors (or Rainbird, whatever) and adjust the heads for proper throw and excellent patterning. Those sleds chain together, and I have no trouble running three at a time. If your pressure doesn't stink as badly as mine does, you can do more.

Should I aerate at some point during the renovation to loosen the soil, or do I not need to aerate since I'm slit seeding?

One or the other...if you don't have a soil compression issue and you're sure about it, then just slit-seed. I'm a fan of aeration. Most of us are.

The slope really doesn't come into play. I'm only doing the front which is %95 flat, do I still need straw?

Yes, no, or maybe. You can do it without, but straw helps the soil retain water and keeps the seed damp and a bit shaded. You could use Penn Mulch (expensive!) or a light topdress of any other fine mulching material, but using something is a very good idea.

I admit I don't like straw, so I'm springing for Penn Mulch. It's a lot less ugly and a lot less work when I don't have to rake it up.

Will the roundup cause me to lose soil microbes? Adding compost at some point during the renovation is not necessary or helpful?

Not really and your decision respectively. Roundup is biodegradable--the microbes actually eat the stuff and grow on it (there's energy in those chemical bonds and, durn it, they're going to get it outta there and do some good with it!) Some species might suffer a setback, but it'll be temporary and recoverable.

Does anyone know if it's safe to use roundup around my well?

I can't answer this one, but it's an important answer to have!

Can I get any generic glyphosate, I don't have to buy Roundup? Does anyone know the ballpark cost of Roundup for 10,000 sq ft?

Yeah, Roundup is the trade name, glyphosate is the "generic," if you will. There's absolutely no chemical difference. Roundup does contain other things (Diquat, in my case, Pelargonic in the weed and grass killer version) so the generic will be a touch different. I don't think it'll matter much.

Cost is pretty cheap; a very tiny bit of Roundup goes a very long way. For killing KBG, the lightest coating per plant seems to take it out. My bottle of concentrate should be enough to do my 7,000 square feet total once. Call it maybe $20 to do the whole lawn twice since the second shot is only cleanup.

do I not need to aerate since I'm slit seeding?
Slit sitting is all you need. I core aerated because it was easy for me to do myself with my tow behind unit. One added benefit was that when slit seeding, the surface cores got broken up to provide a light topdressing. It was also comforting to know that seed would be protected in the holes, if the weather did not cooperate. Also, do not blindly trust the seeding bin on the overseeder. You may even want to use it only to verticut and then to broadcast seed afterwards.

do I still need straw?
Straw/mulch benefits, as per Morpheus. I did not use any and did fine. However, one hard rain and I could have had a devastating loss due to washout. In that respect, straw is superior to penn mulch, IMHO. Even moderate rain really does a number on penn mulch so keep that in mind! On the other hand straw is usually laden with it's own seed--more of a nuisance than anything. Rolling the turf also minimizes seed washout and provides excellent soil/seed contact--do not overlook rolling.

Adding compost at some point during the renovation is not necessary or helpful?
Compost topdress can provide some of the same function as mulches, and makes for an excellent seed bed for germination. The only problem is that too much can bury the seeds and prevent germination. I tried peat moss, but it repelled water when dry and seemed to have blown away after only a few days!

There really are a lot of different ways you can renovate. You have to decide what is right for you given the expense/effort vs. benefits. I'm sure there will be more discussion as fall draws closer.

Per the advice given, I'm going to reduce the area to 7500 square feet.

Since I'm killing the existing lawn, do I seed at 2 lbs/1000 sq ft or 3 lbs/1000 sq ft? So 7500-8000 square feet, I should buy 20 lbs or 30 lbs of Galaxy seed?

Is Tupersan (siduron) useful in this situation? If I really want to "do it right" this fall, is it worth the expense to use it? Does anyone see crabgrass in the pic above? I'm more concerned about weeds coming up, which Tupersan doesn't help with anyway. ?

Morhpeus, you are about to overseed this fall, and turftoes, you did it last year. It sounds like we are doing the same thing with the same Galaxy blend. I'm curious as to your timeline, your plan. Here's a brief timeline that I'm looking at, I'm seeding Saturday September 1.
1. First week in August, fertilize (Lesco starter) and start to water so grass is actively growing.
2. Second or third week of August mow low and Roundup.
3. third or fourth week, roundup again any missed areas
4. fourth week of august, mow dead grass to an inch
5. fourth week of august, laugh as my neighbors wonder what the heck I did to the lawn (:
6. fourth week of august, great time to fix low, bumpy spots with shovel
7. Sept 1--
water lawn to make it easier to aerate, not to the point of mud
aerate (soil is compacted),
slit seed with half the seed horizontally, then diagonally with the other half
fertilize again??
roll
hay
water 3 times daily using timer set to come on for 20 minutes at 6am, noon, 6 pm?

Feedback from anyone would be great! What did I miss?

1. First week in August, fertilize (Lesco starter) and start to water so grass is actively growing.

Sure, use any fertilizer or none at all, but grass can take a while to fully awaken. I think I'd start watering earlier, although I don't imagine you'll have an issue with this date.

2. Second or third week of August mow low and Roundup.
3. third or fourth week, roundup again any missed areas
4. fourth week of august, mow dead grass to an inch

Leave the grass for a week after using Roundup without cutting it, if possible (at least 48 hours). The Roundup has to translocate from leaf to root, and you don't want to leave any living root if you can avoid it.

Plus, anything you didn't kill the week before is sick, and not translocating as fast as it could otherwise.

So Roundup the second week of August, cleanup the third, mow the fourth.

5. fourth week of august, laugh as my neighbors wonder what the heck I did to the lawn (:
6. fourth week of august, great time to fix low, bumpy spots with shovel

Ha! Yes, and fixing up then is good timing.

7. Sept 1--

Cool. You're right in the middle of the range for planting.

If you skip the previous fertilization, do it now. If not, I'd skip this one to avoid having too much nitrogen hanging around (not likely, but why take chances)? Personally, I'd do it on September first since the new grass is going to need it. The old will recover from its root systems and you don't care if it looks good. ;-)

You'll hear a lot of arguments about timer settings. I've chosen 10 AM, 2 PM, and 6 PM to damp it in the morning, the heat of the day, and long enough before dark for it to be damp, not wet.

I don't think you have any problem with your timing and you'll be perfectly happy with it.

Thank you to everyone for your responses. WE had plenty of rain after I posted and I gave the lawn a good drink too. It's starting to green up again (slowly but surely). Would it be wise to give the lawn another shot of fertilizer? Maybe a milorganite or something just to help the roots since they're working extra? Thanks!

Milorganite is an excellent summer choice.

Two things I'm still unsure about and then I'll let this thread die...
1. When using roundup to kill the lawn, do you seed at 2 or 3 lbs/1000 sq ft
2. Has anyone used Tupersan (siduron) before seeding to prevent crabgrass? Is that unnecessary since I've killed everything with Roundup therefore crabgrass is unlikely to come up before my KBG germinates and takes over the lawn?

2. You're seeding in the fall. Crabgrass is a summer annual and therefore no concern for August/September seeding. You might want to apply Tupersan to prevent any winter annual weeds it is labeled to control, but if it isn't labeled for any of the winter annuals, then the application is pointless in the fall.

1. Round up application has nothing to do with, does not affect, and doesn't determine seeding rates. Where you are at the time of seeding is what determines. I guess that's why you're asking, isn't it? Since everything will be dead, you will have to establish a new lawn, so seed at the higher rate.

1. When using roundup to kill the lawn, do you seed at 2 or 3 lbs/1000 sq ft

You seed at the rate for new seeding, whatever that is for the seeds you bought. I'm not really up on seeding rates.

2. Has anyone used Tupersan (siduron) before seeding to prevent crabgrass? Is that unnecessary since I've killed everything with Roundup therefore crabgrass is unlikely to come up before my KBG germinates and takes over the lawn?

I haven't used it, but it is supposed to suppress crabgrass from germinating while allowing the KBG to germinate. The roundup killed everything that was actively growing, but didn't kill any seeds.

Turf_toes,

I have to hijack the thread and ask about the trencher. Was it self propelled and how fast did it trench (e.g., 5 ft/min)? I ask because I am renting a trencher this weekend to install the zones to my sprinkler system. I installed the control panel, valves, and valve boxes last weekend.

Sorry for the hijack.

Thanks,
mrl

mrl05,

Well, I can't recall if it was self-propelled. But it did require quite a bit of pulling. So, my guess is that it did not.

Just make sure to cut out wide strips of sod. While the trencher itself was advertised as cutting a 7-inch wide trench (18-inches deep), I really needed almost two-feet-wide strips.

(As the part that pulls up and spits out the dirt is wider than the trench.) One more thing, and this is important.

ALL THE DIRT THAT COMES OUT OF THE TRENCH GOES BACK IN WHEN YOU ARE DONE.

Even if this leaves you with with a mini mountain range over the filled-in trenches.

If you don't do this, you'll end up with little canals through your yard a few weeks after the job is finished.

Turf,

Thanks. After posting, I remember visiting home depot and the trencher they carry is not self propelled. I'm renting from a rental yard and it will be self propelled. Good advice on the dirt in the trench. I am experiencing the mounds now from the valve boxes I installed last weekend. I have 500+ feet to trench for an 8 zone system. I have 8 poly pipe leads coming out of the ground from the valve boxes now(looks like I half buried Doc Ock). One question, why did you go so deep (18")? Most of the professional installers only go about a foot deep - at least the ones I have spoken with.

I have at least another 150 feet that will need to be (partially) done by hand as it crosses over several power, cable, gas, and verizon fios lines throughout my front yard.

As for the sod strips, I don't think I'll be doing that. I have a TTTF lawn that was going to Round up in August. I am renovating in September to the mix of KBG that you have (just ordered the seed today from Williams Lawn Seed). I'll be content with whatever lines I get for 2 months until the new seed germinates.

Thanks,
mrl

Morpheus, turftoes, anyone...
One last question regarding your lawn renovation. What size of sprayer did you or will you use? Amazon has a little 1 gallon sprayer for $10 but that's too small to apply roundup to 7500 sq ft? I should get at least a 3-4 gallon?

Shop around for a 4 gallon backpack sprayer. They are a pleasure to use and can be used later for weed-b-gone, compost tea, etc. Coverage with these things is excellent!

Also, consider buying way more seed than needed so that you can patch, or apply more if needed, or even overseed later. Seed is expensive, but in the grand scheme of things, it is relatively small.

I agree with Subywu about the backpack sprayer. They're a pleasure to use. Just to clarify though, never use your sprayer for both organics and chemicals. There's always residue left inside, which will cancel/kill your organic products.

just for information we ontario folks have entered a very dry period...there are watering bans and restrictions in place. the grass is turning that grey /blue 'needs water now' state. in some cases brown and crispy. with no rain forecast for the next 5 days i would say the lawns are going to sleep for a while. With watering bans in place there is no choice but dormancy. it makes for some very challenging golf. :) it would take a whole lot of water to just perk the grass back up, let alone get it 'thriving' again.

Morpheus, turftoes, anyone...
One last question regarding your lawn renovation. What size of sprayer did you or will you use? Amazon has a little 1 gallon sprayer for $10 but that's too small to apply roundup to 7500 sq ft? I should get at least a 3-4 gallon?

I'll agree with the others, but if you don't want to spring for a backpack sprayer (and I do not, being as I need a bridge on my back molars at this point) the Ortho Dial-And-Spray really does just fine.

You're going to be filling it up a lot. A lot. A lot... :-)

But it'll get the job done.

I did note the question above and, if memory serves (it often doesn't), you're using a KBG mix. Seed at 3 lbs per thousand for quicker establishment--and have enough to seed later on in the patches where, inevitably, it didn't take.

I've occasionally seen recommendations of 4 lbs/K ft, but I don't think I trust it. That's over 4 million seeds per K ft, or 4,000 per square foot (one every 0.2 inches or so). I'd think the seedlings would compete with each other too much.

I could be wrong.

Cool, thanks all. The backpack sprayers are expensive so I went with this nifty wheel pump sprayer :
http://www.gilmour.com/Tank_Sprayers/Wheel_Pump/Default.asp
Pressurizes as you walk or roll it back and forth. 4 gallon capacity for $32, not bad. I'll try it and if it doesn't work, I'll return it and spring for a backpack.

Hey, that's pretty neat!