Hello JD. I live in Newport, just returned from a very long trip. anyway I have an acre too. I planned an 8 tree small orchard and now have thirty trees. This too will happen to you. Have never grown the cherries you're growing and there are many more interesting apples to grow than the ones you've selected. I weed then mulch and have what is called a dry orchard. No drip, no water, no problem. I am on a strict spray sched. that I adhere to it religiously and it works for me. The first thing you need to know and learn is 'patience' the magic word for growing in orchardland!

It will really take your trees five to six years to start producing so do not be disappointed. My orchard is going on nine years old and my plums, peaches and apples are finally coming ink in the right size. I still haven't seen a pear but that combo tree only went in five years ago.

On this site your 'go to' people with the best info are Scott Smith, Fruitnut and Harvestman. They seem to have the longest resumes in professional growing. There are many, many excellent backyard orchardists in this forum and I cannot name them all, but they really know their stuff. Email me and I'll send you my spray schedule and where I buy my products. 8 Trees will not take much to maintain. Before ordering (do you know where you'll be ordering from?) ask for suggestions on this forum. A mackintosh needs a pollinator so having two of them isn't great. All you need is one. Hope this helps, Mrs. G

Where in RI are you? Where I live, there are no good nurseries for fruit trees and mail order is the way to go. Mrs. G

Jd,

I wonder why you choose Rainier cherry. Do you know anyone who grows it successfully in the east coast? I think it's a west coast cherry. Does it cross pollinate with Black Tartarian? Black Tartarian needs cross pollination.

Mrs G. I will definitely drop you an email for your spray schedule. I am in Westerly so we are really close and I appreciate your help.

I am having a landscaper clear and regrade/plant part of the lot that was overgrown with shrubs. He is getting the trees from the wholesaler that supplies Eastern CT/Western RI. I am not sure of the name - he said they supply a lot of the local shops.

The Mackintosh trees were from the previous owners (not our favorite type of apple) but we figured we would try to save them. If they don't produce we would end up getting rid of them.

MaMuang, I choose Rainier because it was available from the wholesaler and it cross pollinates with black tartarian. Also, I like the idea of having the yellow cherries that it produces to add a little color and variety to the fruit we will be harvesting.

Thanks for the feedback I will post pictures once the trees are in.

Your landscaper should know this is not the time to plant fruit trees. Where are you buying 'dormant' trees this time of year. Wait until spring. Mrs. G

Oh, and start reading a lot!

I apologize, but I must suggest you not get potted trees. They can be stunted and their growth is often much slower than bare-root trees. Bare-root are also much less expensive.

Personally I love Cummins. I have bought many, many trees from them.

There are a lot of good places to get trees. Here is a link to one discussion: Mail Order Nursery Reviews

Here is a link that might be useful: Cummins' Apples

Jd,

I love my landscaper, too, but he does not know anything about fruit trees.

Wholesalers sell fruit trees to Home Depot and Lowe's in my neighborhood. Not all the fruit trees they sell are appropriate for our climate i.e. Bing cherry, They sell it anyway. I feel that Rainer in the east coast is the same as Bing.

If you want yellow cherries, White Gold is a good choice for for it's self-fertile, proven to grow well here and be fruitful in our climate.

I totally agree with buying bare root trees. It's easily established. Once you learn about rootstocks, you can have a better idea how soon a tree will fruit for you.

I bought a potted Honey Crisp, unknown rootstock (I was a rookie back then). It took 7 years to fruit (a bit) and it skipped this year. I have other apple trees that fruit a lot sooner. I learned from my mistake.

Mrs. G is right about being patient. European pears can take a long time (I mean 8-10 years) to fruit. You may want to check out a Harrow Sweet or aHarrow Delight variety. It can fruit in 2nd year and tastes good.

My greatest lesson on fruit trees came from someone I met years ago. He and his wife purchased a piece of property where their intention was to put in an apple orchard that they could manage in their retirement. I don't know how many varieties or total trees, but it was maybe 100 or more trees, at least 5 or 6 varieties. He had bought the big tractor-pulled spraying equipment. Once it was growing well, he went out for his very first spraying, and decided that it was something he never wanted to do again. I don't blame him. I met him because I noticed his huge apple orchard, virtually abandoned except for keeping it mowed and allowing horses to roam through. All the classic varieties, red and gold delicious, Rome, etc., were completely destroyed by insects and disease. One variety, growing in a virtually unkempt orchard had almost no insect damage, and if it wasn't for the little bit of smut on the skin, the apples were gorgeous and delicious. He let us pick all we wanted. The variety was a Black Twig.

My first big lesson for a home orchard is to select varieties that do a good job of defending themselves against disease and insect damage - and the popular varieties (like the ones this grower is selecting because they were available locally apparently) are usually bad choices. I have collected articles and information over the years that describe varieties that meet these criteria, particularly great heirloom types - think about it, there was a time when no one considered spraying their trees with pesticides.

My second big lesson is that I do not want to purposefully set myself up to have to aggressively spray. Even knowing there are non-pesticide alternatives like Surround, etc., my preference is to minimize my need for action to prevent crisis. I take good care of the things I grow - I improve the soil constantly, I set things up to where I do not have excessive weeds everywhere, I follow what's happening with insects and disease because it is something I like. I am not a commercial grower with everything on a scientific schedule, and I don't want to be. It's a home orchard - I want it to be easy.

Your pal with the orchard, a.) didn't appear to be committed to growing apples, and b. ) what went wrong with spraying the trees? I think he-she should have spent time researching the growing of an orchard before he began. Sounds naive and a huge waste of money and time. Research and asking questions is the way to go! Mrs. G

drmbear,

I have collected articles and information over the years that describe varieties that meet these criteria, particularly great heirloom types

Will you share your list?

Thanks for all the advice. I have cancelled the trees for the fall planting and I am looking now to order for the spring. I was looking and I think van well nursery will have everything we want with added bonus of being relatively close.

As for the no spray varieties, while I appreciate using less chemicals, I understand that you realistically need some. I am a chemist by day to support my hobbies and I have no problem handling, measuring, and using the proper PPE for this.

This has brought up a question or two:
1 do I order now for a spring ship date? Is earlier better so I get the varieties I want?

2 what suppliers do you use for your chemicals and tools?

Thanks for all the help!

You should order ASAP. I have learned to order in June or July if I can. However, researching rootstocks and cultivars should be your priority.

One thing I noticed about VanWell's rootstocks is that most will take a long time to come into bearing. Dwarfing rootstocks not only help the tree stay to manageable size but also improve precocity.

Jd,

" I think van well nursery will have everything we want with added bonus of being relatively close.".

You are in RI and Van Well is in WA. I would not call that relatively close. Cummins nursery in NY and Adam County Nursery in PA are a lot closer to you. Another nursery in WA I like is Raintree Nursery.

Re. chemicals, it depends on what chemicals you need. Common ones like myclobutanil, fungicide for apple cedar rust, can be bought at Home Depot under a brand name like Immunox.

One of the fungicide I rely on is copper. I use copper hydroxide with a brand called Kocide 3000. That one you need to google and buy the cheapest, smallest amount you can find.

You can find almost anything on line.

I think dmbear may be in for a rude awakening if the hope is fruit without spray in VA. There are a couple of hard, late apples that will provide some sound fruit, some years, some sites without spray (at least in my region) but given everything else involved in having a productive orchard, I can't imagine a sprayless orchard being worth the bother in the east. In all the years I've followed this forum, no experienced grower has claimed to be successful at this- it is a dream..

I grow Rainier cherry here and as cherries go it performs pretty well, varieties bred by Cornell for our conditions are not much better as far as cracking goes, but I don't think cherries are worth growing in a small orchard unless one loves cooking with them and grows sour cherries. When we get a period of rain during ripening, all varieties seem to crack and rot -or at least crack if you keep them coated with fungicide.

White Gold might be an exception, but I haven't fruited it yet. It may also be possible to grow it without netting the trees from birds because it is pure yellow. However, it is not known for being high quality.

I will try to offer some more advice as time permits. One thing I can say is that peaches are the quickest most rewarding thing you can grow with Japanese plums coming in second. They bear young and you can get quality impossible to realize from purchased fruit. By the third year you should begin harvesting if you give them what they need for vigor.

Also, you should try to make purchasing decisions wisely, but fairly quickly. If you order from Adams or Cummins they are already sold out of many varieties (at least Adams is). I use both east and west coast nurseries, but prefer the closer when possible.

The advice about getting earlier pears by ordering a Harrow Sweet is valid. I get fruit from 2-year trees in my nursery and it is a very, very good pear. Don't know how well it would do there, but I expect as well as any.

Another point to consider, even if you are not adverse to spraying, is to still investigate resistant varieties/rootstocks.

Reason being, there are some pests and diseases which are not well controlled by sprays of any sort. Fire blight and wooly aphid are two that come to mind. By choosing varieties and rootstocks with resistance to these and other potential problems, you can make your orchard life easier in the future.

I never said that I am completely opposed to spraying, though I may be selective about what I spray. What I am is a home gardener, and my preference is that for most of the things I grow to do a fairly good job of taking care of themselves as it is not something I'm going to be doing all the time - unlike a farmer whose livelihood it is.

The first article I saved against someday wanting to plant apple trees and other fruits was in Mother Earth News, Aug/Sept 1994, "Not All Apples Are Created Equal." I liked it because it had a chart of disease resistance and insect resistance. The truth is that 100 or more years ago they grew apples and didn't spray chemicals, and growing something to eat at home is different than growing something you need to be able to ship across the country. I've found lots of other information from state extension publications and all the key universities that do agricultural research. A lot of the growers include charts and more about selecting apples and selecting rootstock.

Seeing beautiful apples in a completely neglected orchard, as well as comparing the condition of common varieties growing right next to them (with diseased and knarled branches, missing leaves, chewed up and badly mangled fruit), showed me the value in paying attention to variety - and that was here in Virginia. Certainly I may purchase a Golden Delicious apple from a grower that constantly manages their orchards, but I know I do not have the desire to work that hard to grow it at home. That there are varieties that have great taste, but also exhibit high disease and insect resistance, makes me want to select those for my home.

No one else has mentioned this, but I assume you may have deer in your area and you might want to take preventative measures with young trees. The first year I planted my orchard a family of deer came through several times and ate many of the tasty leaves and stood on hind legs so they could crash down with their front legs to break branches for easier access to those leaves. If you have deer in your area and don't have an 8' fence or a big dog out in the yard all the time, you may want to wrap the trunks with hardware cloth (deer can gnaw off bark) and tie deer netting around the foliage. I've found this to be necessary only for the first two years or so, as they don't like less tender bark, and larger trees can handle losing some of their leaves better. Below is a picture of what was once a 6' tall Italian plum after one night of deer depredation.

{{gwi:125057}}

Funny, I once visited an orchard in VA near Charlotte that had nothing but old Golden Delicious apple trees which bore apples without spray that he used to produce what he claimed at the time to be Virginia's only organic apple cider.

See, with all your research you didn't find out that old-strain yellow delicious is actually pretty disease resistant. You might want to run by important research info here to see what folks who actually grow fruit in home orchard conditions have to say. The universities only really know about commercial production- Cornell didn't help me at all in picking varieties or finding a low spray approach for sound fruit- they didn't have a clue. They pushed varieties like Liberty that don't get scab but are insect magnets.

Here's a link to a post regarding old disease-resistant apples.

Here is a link that might be useful: INBREEDING IN MODERN APPLE CULTIVATION Hans-Joachim Bannier

I should have said that old strain yellow delicious is surprisingly insect resistant- that is its remarkable quality.

H-man, My yellow Pristine apple is part yellow delicious but I feel it is tastier. It is very disease resistant and really good looking apple. I love the taste, and everything about it. Except for my bad pruning. As you know its a purdue, rutgers, Ill. hybrid and has great resistance against scab. I still spray. Mrs. G

Thanks everyone for the great info. I got in my apple and pear tree order to ACN. I decided to go with 2 royal empire, 1 honey crisp, 1 gale gala and 1 harrow sweet. There are about 5 Bradford ornamental pear trees within 100 ft of where the pear tree will be so I think that should do for pollination (I found some info from others saying that they had good results from the cross pollination.)

I was still going to order a couple peach and plum trees from stark bros. they said they will not have their spring trees listed till jan on their site. But a couple questions:

1) any must try's for Japanese plums or peaches that are zone 6 compatible?
2) any to stay away from (mostly for fresh eating, canning, and freezing.)
3). Does anyone have any experience with hardy kiwi in zone 6? I have a 2 story porch that I want to put a lattice with a vining plant on ( about 16' wide x 10' high) that I thought this would go well on. It is westward facing and gets full afternoon sun.

Thanks again for all the info I am sure you guys have headed off a couple of major mistakes by me already!

I think I caught all the iPad autocorrects but if not please excuse them.

-jd

This post was edited by jdbrown1998 on Mon, Oct 20, 14 at 21:53

I am curious why you would want 2 of the same apple tree when there is such a wide variety to choose from.

The reason we want two is because that is my entire families favorite variety. We have a pick your own orchard with about 30 varieties around us so we get to try a lot...and everyone really liked this one. So if I want some I better grow enough;)

I love Satsuma and Queen Rosa plums and their harvest is spread from mid to late season without any overlap here.

If your apple trees are on free standing rootstock, your family will, in fact, be very unlikely to consume a crop from both trees when they have assumed their space and are really putting out apples, but that is 7 years away (apples tend to be relatively slow). Cortlandt are poor storage apples and become mush after about a month or so in normal cool storage.

Fortunately, apples are easy to graft to. When I started harvesting fruit I started trying many more varieties and my favorite choices changed radically. You taste a new apple you love and you can graft it on an existing tree and have fruit form the graft in 2-3 years.

If your experience with apples is tasting ones brought here from Washington State you really don't know what any given variety will taste like from your own trees anyway. I've always thought of Cortlandt as a New England apple.

"The truth is that 100 or more years ago they grew apples and didn't spray chemicals"

This is silly.

100 years ago they had different pests - they didn't have the brown marmorated stink-bug. They didn't have the Asian Citrus Psyllid. Etc.

They also didn't have nearly as tasty fruit as we do today, or the standards we do today. There are apples that you'd compost that they'd eat out of hand.

"The truth is that 100 or more years ago they grew apples and didn't spray chemicals"

The "real" truth is that although undoubtedly 100 years ago unsprayed fruit existed (it also exists today); the bulk of commercially grown fruit was heavily sprayed. Way farther back than 100 years ago too.
The only thing that precluded more spraying wasn't the lack of available spray chemicals or the need for spray, it was the fact that it was far more labor intensive and therefore more costly. Folks also weren't as used to perfect fruit as today, so what would today be perhaps unmarketable was just fine in those days.
London Purple and Paris Green were the insecticides of choice and I'd guess lime-sulfur and other mixtures of sulfur were the fungicides of choice. Dormant oils were already well understood and utilized, The aforementioned insecticides were lead arsenates which were probably quite effective at killing everything. The greek poet Homer described the benefits of the "pest averting sulfur".
Olpea recently mentioned the use of nicotine sulfate marketed as "Black Leaf 40" which apparently was also quite effective, but was rather indiscriminate as to who or what it poisoned. same as the lead arsenates.

No...things weren't really any different 100 years ago other than far more dangerous chemicals were used.

What about DDT? Mrs. G

yep...DDT. I didn't mention it because it's introduction was less than 75 years ago.