Well, I don't know about the "low yield" part. I admit, as an avid canner/freezer/preserver and cook, I use a lot more produce than the "average bear" and I give a lot away.

I would be sorely disappointed in any tree that only gave me 5 to 10 lbs of fruit -- get out the ax!

I'm thinking the wrong rootstock for their soil condition, lack of prunning and wrong variety for their zone, leads to failure.

If you are not willing to put some thought into Home Garden growing, then I would stick to gleaning.

Eric

For a newbie, spraying, root stocks, chill hours etc are out of their realm and maybe something they are unaware of. So, it might be a great idea if these "home orchard friendly" varieties are identified by zone,zip code etc and labeled and sold that way. Or at the least a website with such information readily and easily accessible would be a great idea. The internet has helped the home grower come a long way. But, a lot of them do not know what to do if a disease hits the trees or if the rootstock does not match their soil. In that respect, UC Davis has a good website for reference for the Home Orchardist. I refer to it whenever I am not sure of some things and ofcourse ask questions on GW! And I agree with the OP, I am not looking for 500 apples from one tree, if I got 50 apples per tree, it is more than my family can consume and I prefer more varieties spread over time than a glut of same fruit from one tree. For example, I have a navel orange tree with 300 fruit and I am struggling to give them away (no takers here) and eat more than 2-3 fruit a day, but I do agree that it is OK to have a problem of too much fruit than too little fruit!

Here is a link that might be useful: California Backyard Orchard info @ UC Davis

While choosing the right variety for your location and needs will definitely increase your odds of success, there is a lot more to growing fruit than that. I don't think any variety (of the common fruits such as apples and peaches) is going to "handle massive quantities of Benign Neglect" while still reliably producing good fruit year after year.

I'm also with Dennis that a tree that gave me only 5-10 pounds of fruit would not be around too long. There may be some people out there that would be happy with 5 pounds of small, lesser quality fruit *IF* the tree was very low maintenance. The problem is that that market is not where the money's at, so nobody is going to spend the time / money to develop such a tree.

I totally agree. Any fruit tree that is neglected long term is going to have problems. It will either stop producing quality fruit or become diseased or infested. Not to mention structural issues and fallen limbs. If someone does not want to care for a fruit tree perhaps they should not grow any. That or hire someone else to care for the tree for them.

Planting ultra dwarf disease and pest resistant trees on a suitable rootstock may make some of these issues easier to manage. But there are no perfect trees or perfect rootstocks. Even if you plant the most disease and pest resistant tree in the world it still is going to have to be pruned and trained cared for and looked after.

Amazing! Somebody that gets it. You nailed it John, except for the yield part. There are a hand full of fruiting plants that are almost fool proof compared to the nightmare of problems a novice can expect from the usual orchard fruits. Most of these plants are also attractive enough to use for landscaping. No-brainer solution: don't plant landscaping trees that are nonproductive. Newbies should ALWAYS start their orchards out with these super reliable trees. One nursery, ediblelandscaping.com sells mostly such trees. The trees I'm talking about are: Asian persimmons, figs, pomegranates, loquats, mulberries, jujubes, and pineapple guavas. Among conventional fruits, I would start with grapes, apples, and pears. I think there is at least one grape variety for any region of the US that has a reasonable chance of success; the trick is figuring out what it is. Stonefruits like peaches and cherries are just an invitation to failure.

The link to UC Davis above shows how bad info can proliferate on the web. Click on the link then go to "grapes" to see what I mean. UC Davis is known as one of the premier grape research institutions in the world. They mention that "American" grapes are best for table grapes, with a named photo of Thompson seedless (not an American grape) right beside. Then they have a list of recommended grapes that are almost all "European". The individual listing for Thompson makes it sound like the slam dunk go to variety for California. Hello! Get your heads out of your ars's UCD. Thompson is so disease prone the home grower is 90% toast out of the gate. What about all of the fantastic American varieties out of the U of Arkansas like Jupiter, Venus, Reliance etc. that are several orders of magnitude better for home growers in California than anything on their list. What about other great American varieties like Canadice, Glenora, Steuben, Suffolk Red, Kyoho etc. Oh, I forgot, UCD didn't play any part in their development so they don't count. The reason I'm flaming UCD is because their information cost me four wasted vineyard years. Overpaid educated morons. Caveat Emptor.

fruithack UC Davis does do a lot of great work but I think you are right about them not wanting to promote products developed by other rival universities. Thompson seedless and Red Flame are very good though in hot dry climates. However much of California is not hot and dry.

Take a look at Gene Yale's Amazing Backyard Orchard VIDEO.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gene Yale's Amazing Backyard Orchard VIDEO.

John, I think you need to stick to buying your fruit at the grocery store. The kinds of trees and experiences that you desire don't exist in the real world.

Do you know your local Extension Agent?
Have you had a soil sample done recently?
Do you have a book about Fruit tree diseases and insect pests?

These are clues that you aren't the "Average Homeowner."

The fact that you are already here... Asking questions, contributing, following directions, experimenting, obsessing over varieties, and giving it a try -- You aren't your "Typical" home owner who buys a fruit tree at the supermarket...

I think Fruithack gets my point... We need fruit varieties "Adapted" to "Home Owner" duty -- to get "Joe Homeowner" some success at growing some of their own fruit on a scale they can handle and in a fruit they like to eat...

Example... Here in South Carolina -- Folks see these pretty little Peach and Apple trees for sale *EVERYWHERE*... But.. They have no idea that if cared for properly, each one will give 200-400 lbs of fruit! No way an "Average" family can deal with 1,500 lbs of fruit a year from 2 peaches, a Plum, and 2 apples! They will be dumping whole wheelbarrow fulls of fruit into the ditches around their houses... AND.. They certainly have no idea that they will be spraying said trees every 2-weeks between March and November!

But.. all you can buy in stores is "Orchard" varieties... You can't even *FIND* old "Land race" type varieties that might have a better chance.... They just don't seem to exist...

Is there a decent solution here? Are there some old Land Race varieties that are pretty hardy? What happens if you grow out a Peach or Apricot Rootstock? Do you get something edible? How about the old "Eating" crab apples... Etc.

This is all I am saying...

Thanks

My sentiments lie with rayrose. But John can get what he wants if he sticks with things like Jujube and blackberry. Some of us want premium fruit. I can't get that from the grocery store.

But if no fuss is your deal, head to the store.

Newbies should ALWAYS start their orchards out with these super reliable trees. One nursery, ediblelandscaping.com sells mostly such trees. The trees I'm talking about are: Asian persimmons, figs, pomegranates, loquats, mulberries, jujubes, and pineapple guavas.

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Maybe for California, most of these will not ripen in zone 8 Washington.

Eric

Do you know your local Extension Agent?
Have you had a soil sample done recently?
Do you have a book about Fruit tree diseases and insect pests?

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No, No, Yes, and I never spray. Have over 60 trees and as many fruiting shrubs.

Sounds like you want to go back to being a hunt and gatherer. Plant your edible natives. When your house was built most, if not all natives were removed. Plant a native edible landscape. Less watering, no spraying, no monoculture.

Eric

Ok now I get it. But where I live only cactus and gourds and some tree that produces some edible seeds are native and fairly pest and decease free. The American Indians used to farm all three.

I think I will stick with what I'm doing.

Persimmons, Figs, Mulberry, and to some degree Sour Cherries and Asian Pears are really easy here even for the gardener that mainly neglects their trees. But nurseries around here will try to sell you apples, peaches and sweet cherries. No wonder it doesn't work for average buyer.
Olga

Fruithack gets closest to the correct philosophy. There are some fruits that are too perishable to be found in stores, which will perform with minimal care in the home garden. Persimmon might not make it in WA, but mulberries, shipova, hardy kiwis and all sorts of cane berries will. Around here the woods are full of wild aronia, and many older homes have mulberries in the yard. In semiarid locales, even apples will make it without spray.

So it is just a matter of having a good list list for the region. And I dare say that 99% of the continental US has a list of at least 20 minimal care, no spray fruits that can be grown.

In SC Zone 7, I imagine that hybrid chestnut, walnut, filbert, hardy kiwi, muscadine and Concord, blackberry, mulberries both European and Eastern, figs, persimmon, highbush blueberries, serviceberry, shipova, various types of currants, schizandra, sea buckthorn, goumi, pawpaw, some plums and cherries, not to mention melons and watermelons from the garden, can be grown with only some yearly pruning and harvesting.

With a little planning, one can get ripe fruits in the yard continuously from June to December. But I don't get the 1500 pounds problem. I eat that much fruit in a year. The problem is that there is none left for my family.

glib,

I can list all the trees and bushes that work here,
Apple, asian pear, european pear, medlar, shipova, apricot, peach, filbert, walnut, quince, service berry, plum, blueberry, currant, gooseberry, aronia, sweet scarlet goumi, rosa rugosa, sea buckthorn, highbush cranberry, strawberry, marion berry, raspberry, nanking cherry, strawberry tree,blue elderberry, turkish tree hazel, and black walnuts, in my orchard. This is not John's question. He's looking for a no effort through in the ground and walk away edible.

Eric

No effort trees do exist, but I bet the definition of no effort changes as one gets into trees. I have 3 kinds of walnuts that I only mow around and then eat the nuts. I have scab resistant apples that only need icestorm damaged branches removed...if the storm doesn't remove them by spring.
It is nice to cut said branches so they don't peel the bark all down the trunk, but in this climate, PEI, Canada, it is not necessary. They will fill in over 10 or 20 years and still bear well. I have sweet chestnuts, the american ones, as I am in a blight free area, and they need only a mouse guard while they are young and a shovel full or two of manure every spring. The general wanting of resistant and hardy fruit trees for home use is a good point for me. I am into low maintainence trees myself...cultivars suited to my area. It is often good to ask the neighbours what grows well in your area....learn from what didn't do well for them, and what did. I got some Father David's Peach seeds from my Hubby's sister, so I already know they are hardy and bloom and fruit here...and that they are not self fruitfull, but will pollinate with a Reliance. So, I bought a Reliance to pollinate them. I heard they can be used for canning/cooking, but are too sour and dry to eat out of hand. OK, but why bother? Disease free and hardy, and their seedlings with Reliance make fruits that are small and tasty. Can hardly wait till my 4 inch sprouts get bigger and I can test that myself. I wonder what the backcross to say, a Redhaven would be like...or an Elberta?

Jocelyn

Clemson (SC's land grant school) in their bulletin on home fruit growing specifically mentions and lists several easy trouble-free or trouble-tolerant (can get by with no spray) fruits for the homeowner (along with discussion of others). Going by memory they are: fig, muscadine grapes (most of state), blueberries (the right type), Japanese persimmon, and pecan (right selections). If we could add specific selections or narrower areas, then a few more fruits might be added (e.g., "Silk Hope" mulberry, which is supposed to be more resistant to peach scale, and loquat for the coastal plain and cold hardy citrus for the coastal strip).

The problem in my mind is that retailers sell what people want, not what's good for them, and certainly not what they would want if only they knew about it. Can we really fault retailers for stocking what sells itself?

I think it is going to take some aggressive wholesaler to basically over-hype something into public consciousness ("the easy grow miracle tree"), and trademark it somehow to get profit from the effort. But alas, there are mail order houses whom you all probably know doing exactly that with the *wrong* fruit.

Person to person education? I read a book not long ago about apples. The author had grown up selling various varieties on a family orchard. Locals knew what was good. Families from the city would ask, what is the best tasting, and he would answer, but almost inevitably they would walk away with the less tasty but better looking mass variety. The lesson is that its really hard to redirect people from their mass exposure comfort level.

I'm a bit of a downer today, sorry about that. Comes from my tough slog out of complete noviceness to barely amateur.

The problem in my mind is that retailers sell what people want, not what's good for them, and certainly not what they would want if only they knew about it

I agree completely. That's exactly what I see here at the local nurseries. I've even talked to some of the people about it, but like you said, they need to sell what sells, and don't necessarily have the time/desire to educate each customer on why their alternative is actually better. -Glenn

Nurseries have always sold what will sell. Mostly that's things like Red Delicious and Elberta, not because they're good or locally adapted, but because those are names lots of people recognize.

There is information available from many sources that is better than what the nurseries sell. But it is not widely used even by local nurseries.

So people are left to sort things out for themselves. I've sorted through hundreds of varieties, at most half are keepers. If you don't enjoy that, buy your fruit from the store or settle for varieties the nurseries sell.

I don't mind the effort involved in growing premium fruit. It's the only way most of us will ever enjoy the experience.

Myself -- I am hardly a "Native Only" or "Low Maintenance" fruit grower... I love peaches and cherries and apples and berries of all sorts...

But... Buying another jug of "Death in a Bottle" got me thinking....

Hey... Wait a minute -- All the fruit trees I own are "Orchard" varieties of one sort or another... They sure can be pretty fussy...

Well.. maybe there are "Old" land race varieties I can get that would do well in a Yard? (All I hear is crickets chirping...) Hmmm... Not much out there besides the Indian Blood Cling... and I have to mail order one of those... (It's on the list for next year..)

The current "Home vs Orchard" obstacle I see is that the high yield and Packing/cold storage qualities are at the top of the list for the Orchard guys who are funding the University Guys... Where those 2-things are near the bottom of the list for Home Owners... Where not needing intensive Pesticide and Fungicide application and a College Horticulture Degree to grow them is near the Top of the list for Home owners -- and at the bottom of the list for the Orchard guys!

Peaches have existed in cultivation for at least 4,000 years... and have been in America for over 400 years... You would think that there is some knowledge about this somewhere... Maybe not in America -- Maybe in China... but it is out there somewhere...

But.. Where do we find it?

Thanks

Low yield is not a plus for some of us. I have to share my harvest with the squirrels & birds, not willingly. My neighbor has a low yield peach. She is lucky to get 5 peaches a year & the squirrel gets the rest. I picked an apple tree variety that will give me a high yield. I asked the neighbors if they would take free apples, none said no. I don't mind the effort as long as I get some of the harvest.

The problem is unclear to me, as is the thought process behind it. A tree is a tree. Home, commercial or other categories are restrictive and mostly tied to marketing. It's probably not a good idea to buy a tree because it happens to be in the store, likewise based on a university or other stamp of approval. You will set yourself up for failure if you let someone else decide what is best for you and your application. It's always going to be a case of buyer beware, so be smart and do your homework. Base your decisions on multiple sources of information.

I agree, do some home work. When I first started out, I was influenced by the pretty pictures and the spin Nurseries put in their catalogs. Now I try to collect information close to home. Ask around the neighborhood, what is doing best for them. Trade fruit and test to see if you like it. Flavor, texture. Ask them more questions, rootstock, maintenance, storage. Yeild is mid to low on my list, Flavor, Texture, storage are notches higher.

I don't like mushy Red and Yellow Delicious or the skin on Granny Smith. Store bought Braeburn and Honeycrisp are ok.

Eric

Dave Wilson nursery is collecting feedback on how to improve the content on their website so that it can serve the Home Orchardist better. This is a good chance to share your strong feelings with someone in the business. (I am not affiliated with them in any form - just a happy customer)

Here is a link that might be useful: Dave Wilson Nursey survey for improving their website content

Could you all please suggest some good fruit tree, fruiting bush and fruiting vine varieties for a home gardener (me)?

Info that may be helpful:

Fruits of interest: apples, peaches, apricots, cherries, plums, grapes, blueberries, blackberries, raspberries and kiwifruit.

I would prefer to garden organically as much as possible, although if something really must be sprayed with a non-organic, that's an option, provided it's not something quite toxic.

Some posters mentioned that some fruits work well in some soil types and totally fail in others. I'm starting from a situation in which all the useful growing soil was stripped off the land and sold off by a developer, meaning that I need to create / bring in soil from scratch. Thus I have a lot of flexibility in this area - will just need to know fairly specifically what soil is needed if I intend to add it.

Location is Knoxville, TN, zone 7a, warm and humid summers, 50" of rain a year and reasonably cool winters (although it's not Michigan, it does get cold - we had a string of 9 or 10 days this winter when the temperature never got above freezing, although that many in a row is unusual).

To give you an idea of preference, some apple varieties I'm interested in are Fuji (good for eating), Rome (good for cooking) and Dorsett Golden (produces fruit early in the season).

Willis Orchard Company (www.willisorchards.com) sells (and ships) semi-dwarf fruit trees in different sizes up to 7-8' tall. I'd prefer to get some large trees like this that will bear a good amount of fruit the first year. (Most suppliers seem to sell only small trees, although there must be some others out there that also sell large ones. Know of any more?)

Commitment level to gardening is above average, so total neglect shouldn't be an issue (unless I get horribly sick or something). I do have a family, job and other commitments so I can't get out in the garden every day, however. Weekly shouldn't be a problem unless I'm on a long trip out of town.

Likewise, excessive fruit production shouldn't be an issue. We eat a lot of fruit and veggies, there's a food bank at church that would love to have fresh fruit available and we have friends, neighbors and relatives would also enjoy it.

Suggestions?

The knowledgeable people (several generations) at Hidden Springs Nursery at Cookeville about 50 miles west of you could be a real help. They don't ship large plants usually but you are close enough to visit. They have emphasized easy care fruiting plants for the home or farm. I've bought several things from them by mailorder and asked questions via email.

Hi Knoxville-
That is a pretty broad question. Some people may not be interested in this thread, and may not see it. So, if you don't get a lot of responses here, try posting it as it's own thread. Also, to get better, more-focused answers, you may want to narrow it down to 1 fruit type per thread, starting with what you plan to put in first. I'm not in Knoxville, so I can't offer much I'm afraid. Good luck,
-Glenn

There are differnt ways to go at this. Most americans move every 5 years, so keep in mind that most of what's planted by homeowners is for the next family to deal with. Nothing wrong with planting a few fruit trees, berry bushes etc- you probably won't even be there to evaluate the results.

Organic is harder than conventional, commercial guys will do everything required to get sellable produce. And plant only what is reliable and tested for their particular location. These varieties are among the easiest to grow.

If this is your hobby, you'll try lots of things, search for excellence, and get mixed results. You'll find what you like and what you can achieve (if you're lucky enough to stay in the same place long enough).

Generally, what is meant by a good home variety is something that is tasty but for one reason or another not a good commercial variety. Like soft, juicy peaches that bruise, or things with fruit that ripens over a long period.

knox,

I second what Glenn suggested. Start a new thread, here, OR in organic gardening, or permaculture. I've noticed the the Fruit and Orchard forum leans towards chemical fertilizers and spraying.

Do you own the land. What's your future?
Any grade to the orchard location?
Do you want livestock for soil building?
Water storage, ponds.
Fencing

So much to cover. I'd look around locally to see what is working for others.

Eric

Knoxville

The 1st thing would be to take a trip over to your local Agricultural Extension Office (find it in the phone book) and have a good talk with the local Extension Agent.

The 2nd thing would be to talk with some of the Organic Cooperatives associated with UT there in Knoxville -- they probably can give you some specific recommendations.

But....
It is important that you think about Expectations -- Many stone fruit (Peaches, plums, apricots, nectarines, cherries) don't do well in the Deep South without fairly intensive "Maintenance"...

But.. As many people have mentioned in this post -- there are many other fruit and berry choices that do well with far less maintenance.

Thanks

John

Yep, in those southern states you can pretty much write-off stone fruits (peaches, apricots, cherries) if you don't want to spray. I've been on one fruit forum for 5 years and read the archives for another five, and I've never heard of a Tennesseean, Kentuckian, or Arkansasan raising those fruits without spray.

I'm a little confused. Was this thread intended to be about no-spray fruit or suggestions about varieties that require less effort to grow?

There is a huge difference between Goldrush and Fuji in terms of difficulty to manage. Goldrush almost prunes itself and Fuji is a juvenile delinquent. Rush even has some insect resistance and is unattractive to squirrels.

Old fashioned peach varieties tend to be less prone to brown rot than many newer cultivars. Someone mentioned Elberta in a negative light, but it is one of the easiest to manage late varieties of peaches because of relative BR resistance- although this resistance may not be enough farther down south.

I could go on and on- should throw out a positive about Arkansas Black, another variety resistant to squirrels that requires very little pruning and has some disease resistance but it's spring and I gotta get ready for another day in my war against all the lifeforms trying to keep me and my customers from our fruit.

My original post was probably half Rant and half call for suggestions for fruit trees that are well suited to the Suburban Yard.

There is a local University Horticulture Professor (And peach researcher) here who has gone on record on the Radio that Homeowners shouldn't fool with stone fruit in our area.... One of his Key Messages is "Don't buy a peach tree at the grocery store!" But.. The grocery stores have a big pile of $14.99 Peaches and Apples sitting out front this spring... Destined to die a painful and horrible death in someone's back yard next year..

He has many *Excellent* points... related to the short attention spans, lack of knowledge and commitment of your "Average" Homeowners... They buy the tree without knowing anything about what to buy, stick it in a hole, then wait for the bounty to arrive... What they get is a sick tree and a big pile of wormy and rotten fruit..

Lets face it -- a Red Haven or an Elberta or an Indian Blood Cling grafted onto a Guardian rootstock would stack the deck in the home owner's favor here in SC... but good luck buying one at the Supermarket or local nursery... You would probably have to mail order it...

Thanks

John

I was wondering if Harvestman and Brandon were lurking.

I believe less effort to grow, but isn't spraying part of it?

They buy the tree without knowing anything about what to buy, stick it in a hole, then wait for the bounty to arrive... What they get is a sick tree and a big pile of wormy and rotten fruit..

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True, but it would probably die the first year, from lack of watering.

Eric

I just wanted to add this, reminds me of the folk that give baby chicks and ducklings at Easter. They are so cute! Then, what do we do with this damn chicken or duck. They are not so cute anymore. And the puppy.

Impulse buying is never a good idea.

Anything worth having, takes some effort.

Eric