pylot:

It sounds to me that you are on the coast of CA. You need the advice of Axel who posts here occasionally. He's inland from Santa Cruz a couple miles and has about 500 varieties of apple. I think he likes 111 but you need advice from him not me.

You might also post your question on The Cloudforest Gardener. Axel is the host of that website.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Cloudforest Gardner

You may want to consider an interstem (like G11/MM111). It should give you a good combination of size control, free-standing, and early fruiting. You may still need to do some summer pruning to keep it to 8-10 feet, as I've seen it reported to grow to 10-12 feet (average cultivar in average soil). But from what I hear, there is a tendency for trees to stay smaller in warm dry areas like CA.

I've had good luck with G11. It was a pretty dry year. A variety that didn't do well on whatever root the company used survived the year with little to no watering. Another survived with absolutely no watering right next to the same above mentioned variety/rootstock combo.

I haven't got to where I get any fruit, I haven't had the rootstock that long, but it's possible next year since the espalier one is used for is almost completed after one year and I think I see spurs forming.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting getting a G11- though I have some of them and they have done well (in a different (wetter) climate where I also irrigate). A G11/MM111 would have a MM111 base with a G11 interstem- a small section of trunk attached to the rootstock below the main trunk of the tree. I've ordered a half dozen for next spring, but don't yet have first hand experience. From what I've read, they should be pretty good about dry conditions. This is because you have a nice big root system from the MM111, which is only trying to feed a relatively small tree (due to the G11 interstem).

I use M111, it performs well in our area. Semi-dwarf and fruits early.

Unfortunately, it suckers badly.

Standards are rarely grown anymore outside the northern edge of apple range and most nurseries don't carry them. Pruning doesn't speed bearing it delays it, besides whole branch removal of over-sized branches.

In order for an apple tree to bear well in a confined space you need a dwarfing root stock- why would you want something that is harder to manage if you're going to irrigate anyway?

Yes you can keep a more vigorous tree fruitful and short but it will need to make up for it by spreading out more. There's a reason commercial growers match rootstock with the vigor they need.

I do think 11l with a dwarfing (usually M9) interstem has advantages over a similar sizing rootstock like M26- probably better initial anchorage for one thing. I haven't done enough side by side comparison to be sure- for some reason most commercial growers opt for 26.

I think the idea that you can manage size by pruning alone applies to early fruiting species like peaches,J. plums and Asian pears- not so much to other common tree fruits.

Varieties of apples vary almost as much as root stocks in their relative vigor so you can select varieties to help control vigor as well.

Bob,

I have not seen the M111 with G11 over it, only the other way around G11 with M111 interstem, and that only from Cummin's. They are suggesting planting it so a portion of the interstem is below grade.
Where are you finding the reverse and how are you told it will perform?

pylot, If you get as little rain as you describe I think you will need to water more than once a month with any rootstock...certainly for the first few years while things establish.
those are pretty stressful conditions I would definetly seek local/regional advice and experience as Fruitnut suggests.

Windfall_rob,

Cummins is where I've ordered the G11/MM111 from. As far as I know, the M111 will be on the bottom, while the G11 will be on the top. I've never heard of using the dwarf on the bottom and the full-size on top, as I believe it would be defeating the purpose.

A M9 interstem (as HM mentioned) may be more common. I see it is also offered from ACN:

"M-9 / EMLA 111 INTERSTEM
The interstem M-9 / EMLA 111 produces intermediate trees similar to EMLA 26. Advantages include a well anchored, collar rot resistant EMLA 111 tree, with the dwarfing and precocity of the M-9 interstem."

I've also seen B9/B118 (Cummins and ACN) and G11/B118 (Cummins) combinations online. I haven't seen any other places offering interstem trees. Maybe that is part of why they haven't caught on with growers. There isn't wide availability and they likely have a higher cost to produce. I've read about M27/MM111 in a couple places, but haven't seen it offered anywhere.

Bob,
you are quite right I just went back and checked my notes and exchanges with cummins from last winter.
I guess my head was just not together yesterday.

The reason the interstem trees aren't available is maybe the other way around. If commercial growers clamored for them they'd likely be widely available. When I started my business, Stark Bros. used to tout them promotionally. Of course an interstem tree also requires an extra step which has to drive up the price somewhat in a wholesale situation. Still, the cost would have to be less than dealing with the anchorage issues of 26.

Windfall_rob,
I'm interested in what they told you about the G11/MM111. I haven't seen much about it online (or that much about interstems in general), so anything you can add would be great.

Harvestman,
That seems reasonable. My first two guesses would be:
1.) While interstems are better rooted, maybe it isn't enough to negate the need for staking or a trellis. Of the 13 trees I have planted, the only one damaged by Irene was the Antonovka(which I've been trying to keep under control through limb-tying). I suspect it was because all the dwarf trees were securely tied up (10.5' galvanized 1 3/8" chain link rail for the G11/G16 and 7' U-post for the B9/M27, all at least 2-2.5' in the ground), but the Antonovka was only tied to a small pole from when it was first planted last year (the kind you can tie tomatoes to...). Point being, if a strong post/trellis system may be needed anyways, the added cost of the interstem could make commercial growers shy away. I know- this is a small (tiny) sample size...

2.) There could be problems or just worries about potential problems. One of the articles (I think Scott linked it in an earlier thread) warned of "unexpected interactions", excessive under-stock suckering, and delayed bearing (compared to a dwarf rootstock).

Bob,
Following is a e-mail that Jim Cummins sent last winter when I asked some questions about the combo:

We strongly recommend that trees on G.11/MM.111 interstems be planted
with half the interstem G.11 exposed above permanent soil level, half
below soil. This permits the G.11 to take root and the tree to
develop a dual root system. The precocity and productivity induced by
G.11 as a rootstock should be slightly diminished. The MM.111 will
provide solid anchorage; staking will not be necessary for tree
support (although we do recommend temporary support to facilitate
building canopy).
We expect ultimate tree size to be about that attained with Malling 26
-- without the problems of fire blight, crown rot, and burrknots.
//Jim

"When I started my business, Stark Bros. used to tout them promotionally"

My guess with Stark is it was customer reaction to the upper graft union. Even people on this forum have questioned the knots my old Stark interstems have.

I missed them with my recent Stark orders. Not so much that I've grafted on G11. My grafts were just as quick to fill up the espalier and look like they'll be just as quick to fruit. As far as anchorage, only time will tell.

Cummins and others are always talking about the problem with burr knots but around here they seem to be no liability whatsoever- at least from my experience. I know they can be a point of aphid attack in some regions but I don't understand why they are so commonly considered a universal liability. They are the reason 111 is so easy to propagate.

Pylot;

In your climate the rootstock will not perform the same as in a colder climate; with the little watering you're planning on M111 should be the minimum. You can see the reasons why at the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rational for Using M111 Rootstock in Hot Climates and the Tropics

That was interesting reading. When I lived in Topanga Canyon in LA county, I had a friend with a couple of Bev Hills apple trees and they did get to a large size.

You have to be careful with advise from a single grower- 1 location- 1 soil- that suggests their experience will be universal. Especially when the writer is as articulate and bright as that one because he's so convincing.

These apple trees were on the eastern edge of the canyon near the base and therefore got enough chilling for good growth, I guess. No borers on pretty old trees either.

There are plenty of spots in CA that get enough frosts to get vigor from apples. Topanga, in its colder spots only would get below freezing a handful of times a year but it was cold enough in the low areas to give vigor to at least some varieties.