That is certainly one costly and time intensive way to approach it. Unfortunately you'll have to wait until June or July for it to work. Bermuda won't die unless it is growing. Right now it is dormant in most of the country. It sounds like you are ready to go on this right away. I suspect the person you talked to is in the business of renovating lawns and expects to get your business.

Where do you live? If you live in zone 9, I'm not sure either fescue or bluegrass will work for you. The most popular lawn grass (aside from bermuda) in the warmer climes is St Augustine.

O..M..G!!! You are going to cover your entire yard with plastic????? How big is your yard?

Zone 9...Fescue or Bluegrass? Good Luck. "Someone very knowledgeable" didn't look at the turf zone hardiness map.

They didnt suggest the grass and in my area fescue/rye is the popular mix or bermuda. My water is not metered so as long as I water the bluegrass/fescue mix it should do fine right? or is it a winter issue?

Also the person giving the advice doesnt do work in my area so no conflict of interest there.

Why do I need to wait until July? Things should start growing around 70f right? which should start happening in April?

The yard is approx 1100 sq ft I managed to buy the plastic sheeting to cover it for $20 and I found someone who will desod and remove the old lawn for $500.

Any advice on how to tweak this? Keep in mind my lawn is no longer grass, it's all weeds with spots of bermuda and I do not wish to pay for sod.

I see that you removed your zone location, and you did not answer dc hall's question of where you live. Without accurate information or input, this forum cannot provide accurate assistance or feedback.

1100 sq. ft. is not a large lawn so no worries there. The best chance for eradicating bermudagrass is to treat it when it is "actively" growing, and that probably wouldn't occur until late June at the earliest. But again, since this forum doesn't know where you are located, it is difficult to determine an accurate timeline. When turf starts to re-generate growth is determined by soil temperature, not air temperature. Treating bermudagrass as it is coming out of dormancy is not necessarily the optimum time frame for eradication. Again, it needs to be actively growing.

Eradicating bermudagrass can be a real pain. You sound like you are committed to this endeavor. Remember to stay patient. It is a process over time, it will not happen quickly. Good luck.

Please provide this forum with more accurate information about your location, and I'm sure there are several folks who would be glad to offer assistance.

In addition to the things said by the other posters, let me add a few things not said. If you are going to seed a fescue/KBG mix, then you should wait till early fall to do so, but if you are in zone 9 you are probably wasting your time and money. It would help everyone out if you told us where you live. Cool season grasses do best when planted in late summer/early fall, when day temps are 70-80, night temps in the 50's. If you want to solarize your soil, then you will need to leave the plastic in place for 4-6 weeks in the summer when days are long and temps are high. Do a google search on soil solarization, there are pleny of sites that detail the process. Solarization in spring for a week is pointless. If you want to get some grass down for the spring, but then redo it in the fall, plant some perennial rye. It will come up quickly, look great for a few months, but then you can round up it in the summer and solarize for a month or a month and a half if you want to try your fescue/kbg mix. Again, if you are in zone 9 (central FL, south TX, south AZ and SoCal) you would be better off with a warm season grass although some parts of California are the exception.

Sorry I never removed my region which "tiemco" saw I was region 9.

I might be wrong? I live in Sacramento California.

Thanks for the advice so far about everything!

Seems like my method will not work in the part of the season I want. I don't think growing new grass seed in 100f plus weather is a good idea.

So what would you guys recommend for me then? Also why wont the fescue/bluegrass mix work for me here in Sacramento? The popular mix here is fescue/rye or bermuda.

Link 1: http://www.wunderground.com/NORMS/DisplayNORMS.asp?AirportCode=KSAC&StateCode=CA&SafeCityName=Sacramento&Units=none&IATA=SAC&lastyear=on&normals=on&records=on

Link 2: http://www.bayeradvanced.com/system/product_variants/label_pdfs/000/000/006/original_Bermudagrass_Control_32oz_RTS.pdf

Efface,

The fescue/bluegrass mixture may work for you in Sacremento - but you need to commit to proper watering (do you have a sprinker system?). The main problem that the other posters have been trying to highlight for you is that bluegrass and fescue don't do well in areas where daytime temps exceed 95. KBG will go dormant, and fescue will simply die off if they don't receive enough water. Using Link 1 above, I see that you had several days above 100 degrees last year. Not unusual - but your area was still seeing 100 deg. days into late September. And it doesn't look like the temp ever dropped below 80 in July at all (I'm assuming the chart is showing nighttime temps also). These aren't optimal conditions for "cool season grasses".

But - you want KBG, and you want to do something earlier rather than later - so here's my suggestions.

1. Tackle the weeds - This is really pretty easy - it looks like your avg temp is already around 60 degrees, so they're probably starting to grow. Just use a bottle of Weed-b-gon (aka 2-4-D), and that will take care of all but the most hardy weeds (sedge, violets, and the Bermuda). The WBG may now come with crabgrass killer added anyway, so if the crabgrass is growing as well, that's another weed taken care of.

2. I think you have time before the bermuda starts growing, so I would cut the grass much lower than normal, then aerate the lawn. (Not usually needed, but bear with me for a few more steps).

3. You were going to add soil additives, so I'd do that here - compost or leaf mulch would be good - though it can be a pain to spread out - but no more than tilling up the whole lawn as in your original plan. The compost will fall into the aeration holes while you spread it, which helps work it into the soil.

4. Spread your seed and starter fertilizer (no, it's not the best time, but his area may have a longer growing season before the high temps hit)

5. Roll your seed (from what I've read here - possibly the most important step after watering)

6. Water

So now you should hopefully have some new grass in a few months. Now you can take care of the Bermuda Grass (BG). I've used the product above (Link 2), and it seems to work well - especially after repeat application. But notice that the label suggests waiting 3 months for newly seeded KBG - so if you seed in March, you have April, May and June to grow the lawn in. By June, the BG will be growing, and you can hit it with the Bayer product w/o harming the rest of the lawn. It's better to control BG early in its growing season - as it was explained to me by a nursery lawn specialist, the new BG growth absorbs the chemicals better - older growth develops a waxy coating that's harder to penetrate.

With a new lawn, you may also want to be lightly fertilizing every other month. While the bermuda may also benefit initially, the more actively growing it is, the better it sucks up the herbicide (this is why some posters recommend fertilizing and watering before you use a regular weed killer like WBG).

Come September, re-assess your lawn - if you lost a lot of new growth, you have the fall to over-seed again, or just follow a regular schedule of fertilizing to prepare it for winter and next spring.

Final word on KBG - it grows slowly at first - a common saying is something to the effect of "1st year it sleeps, 2nd year it creeps, 3rd year it leaps". I'm entering into year 3 on parts of my lawn, and the saying's held true so far. It really takes at least a growing season for KBG to reach it's full color and spreading potential. It's also been argued by others that continual, light fertilization will encourage more aggressive growth earlier in its life-cycle.

Needless to say - you have plenty of options. I should have mentioned this earlier - but remember if you take off 3 inches of soil, you'll need to replace it with 3 inches of new soil. If you don't want to pay for sod, replacing the soil may not be saving you much in the long run. I think just controlling the weeds and reseeding will save money that can be better spent on buying quality compost and seed from a non-HD / Lowes vendor.

Hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about!

--Gags

Sacramento is certainly more favorable to a cool season grass than most of the other areas of zone 9, as its cooler nights will go a long way towards success. It is still a challenge however, and watering is going to be a regular and frequent event. You are still dealing with 74 days above 90 and 15 days above 100 (on average). A sprinkler system or a hose setup on timers is a must. On the hottest days short midday waterings will go a long way cooling the turf and soil. This will be in addition to deep waterings before sunrise. I don't agree with Gags in doing a spring seeding with TTTF/KBG for a few reasons. First of all you should do a soil test now if you haven't already done so. When the results come back you will probably need to make amendments. These amendments will take time to work in the soil, the effects aren't immediate, and your soil will be in much better shape in the fall. The KBG will take 2-3 weeks to germinate, and only 3-4 weeks till its first mowing. The summer heat will be very challenging for young grass, and it will be a tough fight to keep it alive till fall. I have had issues with spring seeded TTTF in Connecticut, I can only imagine you will have more. I stand by my recommendation of planting perennial rye this spring if you want to get a cover down, but with the intention of killing it off in late summer. PR seed is cheap, very easy to seed, and germinates in a few days, and matures quickly. Whatever you decide to do be sure you pick cultivars of both TTTF and KBG that test well in areas with hot climates like yours. The latest NTEP trials have two California locations for the TTTF trials. There were no CA locations for KBG, so I would use the NC, OK, and TN locations to pick an appropriate cultivar. Most TTTF/KBG mixes are 90/10 to 80/20% by weight. It will give you a 50:50 mix however due to the size difference in the seeds. You might want to seed separately, and staggered, i.e. seeding the KBG first, watering for a week, then putting down the TTTF. That way your grass will germinate and sprout at roughly the same time. Most of the newer TTTF's germinate in 5-8 days, and by the time of the first mowing the KBG is just getting started. Whatever you decide, be sure to document your lawn with pictures, and be sure and post them for us to see. Good luck.

Tiemco could you explain a couple of things?

Firstly the lawn does have irrigation and I am not metered so no watering issues here.

You said to look for cultivars of TTTF (whats tttf) and KGB, how do I go about that?

I bought the soil tester but to add amendments does the lawn need to be tilled?

Someone mentioned weed-b-gone but I read that tries to target grass only and not weeds. If I did a double strength mix of roundup would that be better as it kills everything?

What about all the dead weeds and such, how will that effect seeding? Will I need to till or remove the dead plant matter?

You also recommended a PR to "get a cover down" and then to kill it in the fall. Can you explain this further as to its benefit and why kill it in the fall? My guess is that this is an aggressive grass that will help choke out weed growth this year and get me a usable lawn in the meantime but is in essence a throw away lawn to where I can do further work to get the lawn i want next year.

TTTF stands for Turf Type Tall Fescue, or more commonly, tall fescue. The National Turfgrass Evaluation Program (NTEP) tests many cultivars of grass over a four year period in many areas of the country. This information is free to anyone and can be found at www.ntep.org. Check the latest trials for each grass type you want to use, and look at the last set of data per trial, so for TTTF use the 2006 trial, and look at the 2009 results.
Home soil tests are pretty much worthless. Most people send their soil samples to a university lab, or a private soil lab. Logan Labs in Ohio is a good one, UMASS offers a good test. I'm sure their are some labs out in CA that do a pretty good job. You want to test for pH, buffer pH, Base Saturations, Organic Matter, P, K, Fe, Mg, Ca, Cu, Mn, Z, S, B, Pb, and Al. They will test for N, but that's pretty much a throwaway number. You don't need to till your lawn, in fact many people advise against tilling as it leads to lumpiness, disrupts the soil microherd, and can bring more weed seeds to the surface. Weed B Gone is used to kill broadleaf weeds, and is safe for most types of established grass. Round-up will kill everthing that is actively growing. You should irrigate a day or two after using Round-up as this will stimulate growth and therefore death (sounds weird but the more the plants are growing the better they will uptake the Round-up, so it wouldn't hurt to water a day or two before using it as well). Once everything is dead and brown you can mow the area as close as possible to get up most of it. The stuff that remains will decompose and add organic matter back to the soil.
If your yard is basically dirt, then I assume you don't want to have to look at that all spring and summer. Perennial rye germinates in 3-5 days, grows fast, and is dark green and makes a nice looking lawn. I recommend this because establishing a PR lawn requires the least amount of effort, and the least amount of care of the three major cool season grasses. Since I don't expect any cool season grass you seed in the spring to do very well this summer, you might as well use PR. When you are ready to start the process of seeding TTTF/KGB this fall you will probably have weeds and Bermuda that needs to be killed, as well as the PR you planted in the spring. If you want to do TTTF/KBG in the spring you can, but you run the risk of losing it all this summer, or having to do an overseed, which is OK, but I prefer starting from scratch as overseeds can be somewhat of a pain with having to mow the existing grass while you are trying to grow new grass.

Generally I'm going with the flow here. I visit California regularly but not Sac'to. Still I have seen TTTF thriving in very serious heat. It takes a lot of water, but it sounds like that is not a problem.

Seeding now in as warm a climate as you are in will almost assuredly leave you with dead grass in July. If you start to take care of your lawn properly now, you will have a fairly good looking mix of grasses by late summer. Then you could proceed with RoundUp to kill everything. It is possible to kill bermuda but most people are unwilling to kill everything in the process. Or they try to do it too early before it is growing its best. Bermuda is a HOT season grass. Warm is not enough to even sprout the bermuda seeds. Wait until the heat of summer to try to kill it.

Weed-b-gone is for killing broadleaf weeds, not grasses. If your weeds are like dandelion, then Weed-b-gone should work fine. I always suggest spot spraying it so you don't contaminate the rest of the soil when you only need it on the weeds themselves.

If your only grass is bermuda, you may as well take care of it like bermuda. Keep it mowed very short. The lowest position on your mower will keep it looking its best and chop the most weeds down.

You do not need to till to improve your soil. A little compost, organic fertilizer (like corn meal or alfalfa pellets), and weekly deep water will do that for you. The compost rate is 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet. One yard is enough for you. The grains go on at 10 to 20 pounds per 1,000. If you accidentally double that rate you should be good. You might get some 'fragrance' when it decomposes, but that's the worst thing that will happen. Water at the rate of 1 inch per week, all at one time. If you get runoff then stop watering and let the soil soak for a half hour. Then continue. Measure using a tuna or cat food can. Every combination of water pressure, piping, hose, and sprinkler results in different time to water. You'll have to figure out what it is for you. I like oscillator type sprinkler for their extremely even coverage. I've tried them all but the oscillator is the only one I don't have to fiddle with or redo.

Glad I waited until this morning to respond.

Tiemco,

I agree with you - I wouldn't do a Spring seeding either, but efface seemed set on doing something earlier rather than later, so I tried to offer the easiest solution that would provide visible results. I suggested the KBG/TTTF thinking some of it might survive the summer, but a Per. Rye lawn would be much quicker and simpler.

Efface - Can you post a picture of your lawn? Knowing what kind of shape it's in and what weeds you have would help. Did you fertilize last fall? If yes, do you remember what you used?

Thanks,

Gags

Here is 3 pictures of the lawn. The clover type weed has taken over during the winter but with sun and watering the bermuda starts filling in in areas. look horrible in the summer

http://imgur.com/a/fubT1

Gags:

What is "rolling seed" and you suggested aerating and placing compost on top of my lawn. how thick of a layer and if my dirt is pH deficient would that still work?

Also any reason why weed-b-gone vs a strong batch of roundup considering anything living on that lawn i want dead?

Also I know bermuda is pretty invasive so how will this prevent the bermuda from over taking my lawn again?

Wow.

Just...wow.

See - when most people say "my yard is infested!" and then we see a picture - there's usually a respectable amount of grass, and some obvious weeds that just need to be pulled or sprayed.

You, my friend, were being modest when you said "heavily weed and bermuda infested yard"! I'm going to take the liberty of extending sincere condolences to you from every member of this forum. :-)

But before you get too depressed - I'm sure others on this board have seen worse (well, I haven't, but I'm sure others have - right? [insert chorus of agreement here])

To answer a few of your questions:

Rolling seed - Once you spread your seed around (use a broadcast / rotary spreader - don't do it by hand, it won't be even [voice of experience speaking!]), a roller is just what it sounds like - think mini-ashpalt roller you push by hand that you first fill (probably no more than 1/2 way) with water. This ensures good seed-to-soil contact, prevents run-off when watering, and is theoretically more important than covering the seed with any sort of topsoil / mulch (the reasoning being that when nature drops seeds, they don't wait for a nice fluffy layer of 1/8" peatmoss or hay to sprout). I rented one for $20 a day from the local rental center.

Weed-b-gon is a selective herbicide. The main active ingredient (2,4-D) kills just about everything EXCEPT the grass.

Round-up (RU)is a non-selective herbicide. The main active ingredient, glysophate, kills pretty much everything. The exception, of course - is dormant bermuda (could be dormant anything, but in your case, we're just talking bermuda). While dormant, the bermuda isn't sucking up any water or nutrients from the surrounding soil or off its leaves. Thus, it doesn't suck up the RU either. Which, as you've probably already figured out, is why spraying the BG NOW will do nothing to kill it.

Having now seen the pictures, I agree with you - you don't need WBG, as there's no grass you're trying to save.

Before I go further, I wanted to address your one comment of "why weed-b-gone vs a strong batch of roundup". I may be reading too much into that - but please please please don't over apply any chemicals to your lawn. The mixing instructions (if using a concentrate) are EXTREMELY accurate - please don't play backyard chemist and double the dosage - you'd just waste the chemicals, and introduce more into your yard then is necessary. Plus - a stronger dose may actually keep the plant alive. A higher concentration may work too quickly - you may kill the top 3 inches of a weed within a day, but b/c the section shriveled and dried up so quickly, the RU was never transported to the roots of the plant, so it's free to keep growing and invading your yard. This is why labels say "repeat applications may be necessary" - the first will significantly weaken the plant - the 2nd and 3rd doses, 1-2 weeks apart - will kill it. For what you have, I'm pretty sure one application of normal strength RU is all that's needed. Unless you're going after poison ivy or similar weeds, you won't need the "extra-strength" version.

For compost, IIRC, the amounts suggested by dchall should provide a 1/4" layer across the whole lawn. Fling it around, brush it in with a push broom (or landscape rake, as you're not going to be concerned about smothering anything), lightly water, and let the microbes do their magic.

I suggested aerating b/c that would allow the compost and seeds to penetrate deeper into the soil. Many forum members have also had good success with renting a slit-seeder, but that may be overkill for a yard your size (a slit-seeder deposits the seeds in a mini-trench it scrapes into the ground, providing that seed-to-soil contact I mentioned before).

As far as pH, I believe compost helps return it to neutral, regardless of whether your soil is acidic or alkaline, but I'm out of my comfort zone here, so I'm willing to be corrected.

So here's my revised suggestion:

1. RU the yard now - this will kill whatever's growing. The other benefit of RU is that it goes "inert" pretty quick - you can overseed within a few days - WBG forces you to wait at least a week or more.
2. Take a de-thatching rake, and go to town on the dormant bermuda - no - it won't kill it, but it will thin it out significantly. This will also scratch up and loosen the top layer of soil, not as good as aerating, but it could be good enough for now if you want to save the heavy machinery for the fall.
3. Spread compost (side note - sometimes, a predominance of a single type of weed also signifies a particular pH level - so adjusting pH may help with future weed issues)
4. Seed with Perr. Rye (PR)
5. Keep mowing high throughout the summer - the PR won't "crowd out" the BG, but should co-exist for the first few months or so. If you fertilize, do it before the BG starts growing - this will help the PR, but not the BG.
6. In June/July, start using Bayer BG Control, or wait until late Sept / Oct to RU the whole yard again, then proceed with a full-scale reseed in the fall.

Related to the last point - Tiemco was suggesting a complete reseed come fall, as it's easier to start from "scratch" than to have any existing lawn compete with the seeds for water and nutrients, plus having extra-long grass (having been watered 3x a day) that you can't mow b/c the seedlings aren't high enough yet.

Thanks for the afternoon diversion - I better shut up and start looking productive.

Thanks for the sympathy and detailed response!

So couple things to make sure of and I want to ask about the Fall procedure.

How is Zoysia grass and will it work in my area?

The PR you have suggested because it will grow quick and in the earlier part of the year correct? this growth will help keep out weeds but not the bermuda correct??

then i use the BG control in the summer to help....kill it? thin it out? stop growth?

Then you said in the Fall I can start with a full-scale reseed.....which entails what? RU the whole yard again and put in the grass I want....the Fescue/KBG mix? I mainly want that rich green looking grass that the KGB gives so if there is anything better suited for that I am all ears.

OH also there is a early spring fertilizer by Scotts "Scotts� Turf Builder� With Halts� Crabgrass Preventer"

Would this help at all? Seed the lawn and fertilize with that?

Yeah, that's quite a patch you got there. I would get a soil sample out to the lab before you use round-up, then pretty much do what gags wrote down. Keep in mind that Round-up takes 1-2 weeks to work fully, so don't be shocked when the weeds look the same after a few days. Once everything is brown, then run a mower over the yard as low as possible with the bag attached. Then you can use the thatch rake and continue with the steps. In terms of fertilizer, use just straight starter fertilizer or starter with Tupersan (siduron), or starter and Tupersan. Tupersan is a selective preemergent that prevents crabgrass germination but won't inhibit turfgrass germination. Stay away from weed and feed products altogether. They are the answer to a question no one asked. Zoysia is a warm season grass that will probably do well for you, but most varieties are sod or plug only, although there are a few seeded varieties. As a warm season grass you would be seeding in late spring/early summer. It also goes dormant in winter if the temps are low enough. Do a search to learn more about it.

The wife and are were talking and I think we failed to touch on whether or not to desod the whole lawn or not. What would be the pro's and con's?

I think we plan on getting our "flower bed" desodded so its not raised above the lawn, this will mostly run along the fence with some curves thrown in and then using good quality weed fabric, bark and 1/2" bend-o-board as the border

Efface,

I'd hold off on the weed fabric in a flower bed - although in your case maybe there's a need for it! But I have some pictures I'll post in its own thread to show what happened in my yard to the soil that was under the fabric.

Thanks,

Gags