sweet lemon:

Pushing plants for "fast" growth can be dangerous, with unforeseen and unwanted side effects. Side effects such as death of the plant. What's the rush? Sunshine Blue is one of the smallest and most compact of the southern highbush varieties. The amendments you plan to add don't sound too extreme, but let the plants grow at their own pace. And for most blueberries, that is slowly.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Thanks Don, I really dont think pushing a plant for safe maximum vegetative production is necessarily 'dangerous'. I am experimenting somewhat here since I usually do allow my garden plants go grow at their own pace -assuming no obvious limiting factors- but I have decided to push these new babies to a reasonable max for the sheer pleasure of it.

What's the rush? Larger healthier plants in a more timely manner, and more luscious berries sooner :-). Within their genetic limitations of course.

Since I first posted my question here this morning, I've been reading some of the available literature about encouraging faster vegetative growth and have been finding some interesting tid-bits. This is going to be great fun, unless of course I drive into the ditch full speed.

Well, I'm off to hook up the electrodes. :-)

Perhaps you should post the tidbits for the knowledge of all.

Gary

I guess I'm with Don, blueberries and fast growth is an oxymoron.

They are slow as shrubs go. I think managing moisture may make the biggest difference; especailly if they are in full sun in zone 10.

Thanks for expressing an interest Gary. I've been reading a lot today about upping vegetative growth. Mostly its keeping the plants in optimum conditions without over-doing anything too much, and being consistent with what you do so there is never a time where there are obvious limited factors such as water or light or nutrients. And in containers with a porous medium, nutrients are frequently limited.

One of the interesting things besides the traditional acid mix and consistent watering with acidified water, full sun, that have been well-presented here in past posts, are even the shape of the pots the plants are grown in. Apparently the squat-pots create better water-relationships in them for plant growth.

In addition to some of the greenhouse and field grown studies, the bonsai and some of the hydroponic information also seems interesting, although the goals are obviously different. I think the thing to do is try various moderate things on your plants and see what happens over time. That is what I am doing. I would not try this on established, expensive plants that would be difficult to replace. But if you have some young things to play with, I think some mild out of the box experimentation will be fun, and what works can later be applied to other blueberries that you prize more.

One of them will be increasing the amount of fertilizer. I was going to use just a fraction of recommended amount on my plants, 10% or so, but some of the bonsai folks say that the old rule of half strength is silly, and full strength is the way to go. Yikes. I may just up my usage to the quarter-strength, and see if I get any leaf-burn.

I also read that the best NPK ratio for vegetative growth is 6:1:1. In another place, I read equal ratio such as 6:6:6 is best. And inclusion of trace minerals of course. I am thinking of mixing something like miracle grow with ammonium sulfate (1 part to 3 parts dry), then diluting that into a 25% strength solution. (1T/4 gallons water) for regular watering. Plus vinegar of course for lower pH. If that dilution does not burn the plants, I might consider increasing that further.

Obviously blueberries are not fast growers, but as with all other plant species, there will be a in-bred genetic range of possible growth. I want to find what the upper healthy range is in my environment. This is going to be fun, and hopefully productive.

LOL, or I'll have to buy new plants next winter.

sweet lemon:

If you are most interested in rapid growth, perhaps Sunshine Blue was not the best variety choice. This is essentially a dwarf type blueberry intended primarily for container planting. As such, it will grow slower than most other varieties, no matter how much you push it.

I fertilize blueberries early in spring with ammonium sulphate and a little iron sulphate, but aside from that add no extra nitrogen. Blueberries are woody shrubs, slow growing by nature, and do not require a continuous supply of nitrogen as would a garden crop like sweet corn. Even garden crops do not benefit from, and can be damaged by nitrogen applied late in the season. You can find recommendations from just about any point of view on the internet, but that does not mean they make much sense.

If you use Miracle Grow to supplement ammonium sulphate, make sure it is not the nitrate-based type, which can injure blueberry plants. I would suggest that, since you have 6 plants, you apply your technological skills to 5 of them, and leave one of them alone (with only low-PH watering) as a control. At the end of the season, you can make a comparison of growth rates and overall health. That would be science.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Thanks Don. Yes, I am aware Sunshine Blue is smaller than most, that's part of the reason why I purchased it. I actually have other older blueberries which will get their regular treatment, its just these six yearlings I am going to experiment with. And while SB will always be smaller than the others, they do have the potential for growing several times larger than their current small size.

I too have found over the years that what is written in books and now on the internet and various garden fora isnt always the best way to do things, no matter who has written it, or how often. As you know, some plant advice is downright silly and I just roll my eyes. That's why I read everywhere I can and then make up my own mind about what to try after consulting my gardening instincts. That is part of the fun of learning things for oneself. It's amazing how often the old ways are repeatedly done year after year simply because people are afraid to try something different on their own. It's certainly not as safe, and many times there are failures, but sometimes you discover new ways of doing things that are even better.

As to nitrogen application, well, I guess I'll find out what it will do over the long season, or change the application if the plants dont like it. We do not have very distinct seasons here, and we have not had even a light frost for several years. I was also told I couldnt grow tomatoes year-round either, but that is possible too.

Successfully growing Vaccinium is relatively new to my area, and after reading some of the published reports of the recently planted commercial farms, they are still experimenting too.:-)

Sweet Lemon: I'm with you, go for it. Blueberries do not have to be slow growing. And the faster they get some size the sooner you will have a worthwhile crop. You obviously have studied this well and will do fine. There are a lot of people who want to stick to the way they have always done things and that is 100% fine. But there is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope a little just because you want to.

I have found that blueberries are particularily sensative if one adds too much fertilizer at one time. Damage shows up as a slight burning of the new leaf growth. But you can figure out what the limits are and maximize growth with frequent small applications. Even when I've seen leaf damage, I can not tell that it really hurt anything. The plants just keep on growing.

By pushing my potted southern highbush a little bit I averaged about 5 lbs of fruit per plant in the 3rd leaf. I suspect that's pretty good for any where, potted or not. And fruit quality was the best I've ever eaten.

Good growing!

The Fruitnut

I have been using white vinegar to adjust the pH of our tap water, so that it can be used on our blueberry shrubs. We live in an area with limestone beneath the soil, and our tap water contains dissolved lime. If I forget to add the vinegar, and use plain tap water, the shrubs suffer almost immediately, with leaves turning yellow. I am not convinced that using vinegar (acetic acid) to lower tap water pH is the best method. Over time, the vinegar decomposes and I am still left with calcium in the soil. I am considering the use of sulfuric acid, diluted, of course, for this purpose. The reason for using sulfuric acid is that it should produce results that last longer over time.

I know what you mean Ericwi. I've brought BB plants home from the nursery, started to water them with lower pH, given them regular light feedings of liquid nutrients, and they will green right up and start to actively grow again. One of them that looked pretty quiescent when I got it a few weeks ago is now sending up 2 new basal shoots after some tlc. It could just be a coincidence however.

I would also prefer to use sulfuric acid since that is what the commercial growers around here use for ag, and from my reading, it seems the best choice for several reasons as you mention. One local commercial ag place sells it only in 55 gallon drums, too large and dangerous for this old broad. And I dont think you can get a strong acid shipped. Battery acid (new of course) is about 33% sulfuric acid, but I havent gone to any auto stores yet to see if it has additives or if its cost effective. Nor do I know the correct dilution to get it into the pH 5 range. Some drain cleaners use it too, but probably mixed with other things not plant safe. Too bad pool acid is bad for plants. That is inexpensive and readily available.

If you find a good source for sulfuric, ericwi, please let us know. Thanks.

Thanks for the encouragement, Fruitnut. What you describe doing is exactly what I intend to do too. No reason not to give it a good try, especially in our mild, sunny climate. I'll let the plants tell me if they dont like all the added care and goodies. If all goes well, it will mean more fruit sooner. Nothing wrong with that. :-)

-- If you find a good source for sulfuric, ericwi, please let us know. --

here ya go

Thanks username. That was an interesting, very complete site, but very expensive to acidify water for garden purposes. For 1 liter of S.Acid, the cost was in the range of $33, plus $25 for a hazardous chemical charge, plus $17 for s/h. $75 total. I think battery acid will be much less expensive than chemical reagents. If I can find it locally that is. That site did give me a basis for comparison however.

I called around today in town and found phosphoric acid, 70%, in 2 1/2 gallon container, for about $40. I know some of the hydroponic people use this acid in their systems, but I wonder if it would be good for blueberries. I seem to recall reading that blueberries dont like an excess of phosphorous, but perhaps I'm not remembering correctly.

sweet lemon,
I've never actually heard that blues don't like phosphorus. Calcium, yes, they hate it. Even Rodale mentions it in his book, but not P that I'm aware of. One problem that excess N will cause which I didn't see mentioned in the replies so far is increased susceptibility to bugs. As soon as I applied nitrogen to my blues, I started getting little worms eating the growing tips. Nitrogen is like sugar to bugs, and you may find your ordinarily bug-resistant blues starting to attract uninvited guests.

Hmmm... as a long time chemist, the talk about using concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric acid for this purpose is scaring me a bit. ;-)

How about trying those aquarium products to adjust the water pH - eg., "pH Down" by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (or any equivalent product)? You should be able to determine what rate to add to the tap water to come up with at least a pH of neutral (doesn't have to be acid because products like Hollytone or the use of ammonium sulfate or elemental sulfur can give you longer term acidification).

However if you insist on buying concentrated acids, I don't even know how much I can emphasize about being very careful when handling them, as the fumes alone can burn your nasal passages and eyes, and a drop can dissolve skin. We work with these under ventilation hoods and with gloves, safety glasses, etc.

I agree with Jenny- the deductible from your emergency room visit would buy a lot of packaged blueberries from the store. My wife squirted plain soap in her eye and while trying to get her contact out scratched her cornea enough for a hospital visit and three day's extremely painful recovery. I can just imagine acid...

On the other hand, about the only way I can get hurt from soil sulphur or ammonium sulphate is straining my back picking the bag up out of the cart at Home Depot.

Applenut

I would agree that concentrated acids are not a good way to grow blueberries. For those in climates where you get enough rain in summer, get a rain barrel and collect the local acid rain for watering your berries. For less than what you would spend on acids, you could also buy yourself a water filtration system that will remove most of the cations from the water.

Hi Thisbud4u, I was lucky and quickly found the reference to phosphorus and blueberries. But its 'excessive' P that may be the problem, not normal amounts. Here is the statement and the site address. Its about growing BB organically.

"Once a blueberry planting is established, supplemental fertilization can be applied in a number of forms and by several means. Generally, supplemental nitrogen is the greatest concern, followed by potassium. Blueberries have a low phosphorus requirement and typically require little, if any, phosphorus fertilization. In fact, excessive phosphorus has been one of the factors linked to iron chlorosis in blueberries. High calcium levels are also undesirable"

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/blueberry.html

As to growing berries fast, there will be potential problems to be sure. The lush growth I am trying to achieve is an invitation to insect infestation. Doing this experiement will require a lot of supervision and close observation.

Jenny in se pa, I totally agree with you about the great care needed when using strong chemicals. They can be very dangerous. I'm not a chemist, but do have some experience using them, having worked in labs over the years. I also have a chemist friend (also a gardener) who is working with me to figure the final dilutions, strategy, etc.
Using strong chemicals in a garden setting is not for someone who has no experience with them. :-)

Speaking of acids, I've located some battery acid, sulfuric 33%, at a local auto supply store. Its about $15 for 6 quarts. I think I'll get this since this is what the local commercial blueberry farmers use in their fields. And use gloves, safety glasses etc. in a well-ventilated area. Of course only adding acid to water.

I wish we did have summer rains, but we will get no significant precip till maybe next November, if we are lucky. Next winter I'm going to collect as much rain water as if feasible.

The only negative I see is the environmental impact of pushing plants. More of all that stuff means more in groundwater, rivers, etc. Audubon recently did many pieces on the impact of such things to the Miss. river. Just one other thing to consider in the mix.

Happy growing!

Gary

Thanks for the encouragement!

I'll let you all know how my 6 baby plants do as time passes. :-)

Sweet Lemon.

It has been my limited experience that when one forces large growth on blueberries they tend to be the ones that die in the next year. I believe it is due to the roots not keeping up with growth.

I have had some Sunshine grow to their full height in two years from twig size, but it reguired taking off all fruiting buds. It will be well worth it as they have a tangy sweetness that is wonderful.

Also if you don't want to use sulfur which I have found out is better to start using in winter, put on a thin layer of cotton seed meal. It will also add nitrogen so be aware, but acidifies more gradually.

Have you tried starting some from seed? I did and have a plant that produced a small crop at 14 months from germination and the berries are wonderful. It looks similiar to a Sharpblue and is three feet high at 18 months old. All my two year old seedings had berries this year. Some tolerated bigger crops than those commercially produced 3 year olds growing from cuttings in the garden.

Hi tertiary01, I'm not forcing large growth for the sake of large growth, I'm encouraging my plants to grow as fast -- and as healthily -- as possible. I am not intending to sacrifice their good health in this endeavor. I do intend to watch them carefully, and make ajustments as they grow. Your Sunshine blue success if what I am striving for, not creating a blueberry jungle. :-)

I am using sulfur, but that will take several months in the newly mixed potting soil to begin to affect the pH. We have a persistent problem with chlorosis in everything we grow here, and esp in pots. Clay pots turn white in no time. I've used sulfur and iron sulfate for years. There are big bags of them in the garage now. And Ironite and chelated iron products too. It is not unusual for tap water to be over 8. Even the commmercial growers around here -generic nurseries not blueberry enterprises- acidify their water. I was reading last night how it was advised to 'flood' the ground with sulfuric acid before planting blueberries locally. Not for me! A nice regular simple dilution will do.

No, I've never tried starting blueberries from seed. For blueberries to be successful here, they must be very low chill, so I'm sticking with known low-chill varieties. Our official chill hours average under 30/year, and some years there are 0 chill hours. It sounds from your wonderful results that that might be fun to try. What was the source of your seed? One of your own plants or from the grocery?

My best results were from seeds from my own plants. Jubilee, Sharpblue, Earliblue, Blue Crisp and Emerald seedlings are doing real well. I'm going to try to germinate seeds from Legacy and Santa Fe this fall.

I just picked some Sunshine that are so sweet and tangy and about the diameter of a nickle. I have noticed with this variety that they do well with a little shade.

I hope you the best with your endeavor. I heard that the University of Virginia has been experimenting with ways to speed up the growth of blueberries. You might try their site to see if there is any info on it.

Thank you tertiary01. I will see what I can find about the U of V work.

Since I read your message yesterday, I been reading about starting blueberries from seed. I had always assumed propagating bb like that would take years for fruit to develop so I never even considered trying it. But now, it seems feasible. One of the places suggested freezing the seed for a couple months, and I was wondering if you did that?

By the way, where did you get your Emerald and Blue Crisp and other UF varieties?

I used both frozen and fresh seed and couldn't see a difference in germination rate. A nurseryman suggested this to me when I asked him about varieties for my area. He said that blueberries had been developed in only a few areas and California wasn't one of them. So he said it might be interesting to try to develope a variety for my area.

I bought most of my Southern Highbush from Hartmann's.

OK tertiary01, spill your guts- we want to know exactly how you germinated and started blueberries from seed. Did you sprout them in wet paper towels in a baggie? What planting medium did you use?

For home gardeners, this raises a wonderful array of possibilities.

Applenut

I think that is a GREAT idea. Perhaps in a new thread for greater visibility for those that are interested in the subject?

I have germinated bb seeds by placing them on a layer of peat/potting soil and placing the pot in a loose baggie and sticking it in the refrigerator for 3 months. You then move them out to RT and they should start to germinate in a week or two. Don't cover them with more than a thin layer of soil, as they need light to germinate. In a low-chill climate, you should be able to easily cull out lots of seedlings that don't break bud at the right time from lack of chill.

I grew the seedlings in a damp peat moss sand mixture in a pot in the fall. I just sprinkled the seeds on top. In some of the pots I had hundreds germinate.

This is a follow-up to initial post that started this thread from June 27 about growing 6 Sunshine Blue blueberries purchased from ebay. The plants were small but healthy, with good rootballs. The plan was to grow them as fast as was possible, yet keep them healthy. I am over-joyed with the results. They have more than doubled in size, and the leaves and stems strong and whole, and are a very nice dark green. Very nice.

If I saw plants that looked this good in a nursery, I would buy them in a second.

I ended up planting them in 3 gallon black plastic squat-pots in a mix of 50% sifted compost and 50% sifted, very well composted wood chips and their leaves, with a handfull of sulfur mixed in. This drains very well, but also retains moisture. I intended to, but no peat was used. I also mulched the tops of the pots with about 2 inches of ground green garden waste from the landfill.

The plants where placed in full sun all day, and watered about every other day with pH adjusted water with acid to a pH of about 4.5 to 5. (I started with vinegar then graduated to new battery acid - see thread 'blueberries on acid' or something like that, for details and health/safety cautions) I use pH strips cut in tiny pieces to determine pH. I also added a small, unmeasured amount of soluable fertizer with each watering. About 10% strength or so. Usually ammonium sulfate is used, but every once in a while some generic miracle grow or chelated iron was added for other minerals. There has been no leaf-burn at all. This solution was mixed in a garbage can and the plants watered with sprinkler cans. Yes, its added work, but its worth it judging by the plants.

The results have been so good, I've also been watering my older plants in pots with this as well, and they too are looking wonderful and showing good, healthy growth, including many new basal shoots. Of course they were doing well anyway, but not this good.

We live where frost is rare, and blueberries can keep their leaves through the winter. Because of this, I'm intending to keep using this enriched water for as long as it seems to help the plants. I'm not worried about soft growth heading into the winter and any potential frost damage - because we dont get frost. Once in 15 years, and the tomatoes didnt even die. But if it happens, I'll curse a bit under my breath, and live with it.

I'm selling my house, where I currently have three HUGE blueberry bushes. I'd like to take some with me, but the bushes are just gigantic. Would I be able to take a cutting off of one or two somehow, to bring along?

I'm not much of a gardener at all, but I've seen my wife work miracles making starts of her houseplants, and I seem to have somewhat of a green thumb when it comes to taking care of them.

Is it possible to do the same for Blueberry Bushes? Thanks!

If you do a search, I believe Jellyman described his technique for starting new blueberry plants from cuttings.

If I recall correctly, its fuzzy, he takes cuttings while they are dormant and stores them in a cool place until late winter or spring when he sets them out.

Murky:

That's pretty much it for the way I have started blueberry plants from cuttings; take the cuttings when they are in full dormancy, store in barely moist peat moss or sand in an unheated shed (best in a dispan inside a plastic bag), then I line the cuttings out in very early spring in a bed carefully prepared with peat moss. You missed only the part where I dip them in rootone rooting hormone before sticking them in the ground.

Since Robforgod does not mention his location, I can't say for sure this technique would work for him, but it does work on the zone 6/7 border of Northen Virginia.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Re.: Slow growth rate of BB. Probably true for the most of the zones I see posted, but the rabbiteyes mostly grown in the south can be pretty fast growers.

Re.: Sulfuric acid found locally and at a decent price. I have bought it at a smaller hardware store bottled as "drain cleaner," though it is not a real common product (I've never seen it in the "big box" home stores) . Obviously it is just the opposite of most drain cleaners (strong alkalies) so read carefully.

Hydrochloric (muriatic) acid is widely available in swimming pool supplies. With the tiny amount needed for pH adjustment it may be OK too, making sure that an excess of water is given occasionally to flush any chloride build up.

Powdered citric acid (sold in food stores in pickling and home-canning supplies) might possibly work OK but I've never seen it mentioned. So might Vitamin C.

Personally, I'd use the vinegar. That organic acid is probably more like the acids in natural blueberry habitat. Degradation of the acetate ion does not allow the calcium to revert to a pH influence as it is not calcium that is raising the water pH in the first place. It is the bicarbonate that was ionically balancing the calcium.

I had just planted some blueberries this year as well and i am excited about the project. On top of what you had already posted i had read to limit your number of vertical shoots to the 5 best, cutting off your largest each year to promote new growth. GL
IM
ronpaul'08