gshann, Hot Topics is a big waste of time for anyone that is seriously interested in a topic. Most of those people on there are not gardeners so would know nothing about the subject anyway. All they do is put each other down and argue anyway. They don't discuss anything. I gave it a try once and never posted again.

This has been a good discussion because everyone on here are gardeners and have an interest in global warming, because if it is true, it will have a direct effect on our personal gardens.

All i have to say is all you guys down south better start sharing all your gardening tips with us northeners, cause we will soon start having to garden in the winter like you do now.
We'll be the veggie growing center of america if this keeps up. And thats only if we have enough water to go around.

I'm also a scientist (biologist) and wasn't asked. :)

But, the way in which the idea of scientific consensus on climate change was addressed, was by looking at some 900+ articles on the topic of climate change, and asking how many papers support the "consensus view" and how many oppose it and how many are neutral.

The results were very strongly in favor of the idea that there is scientific consensus on climate change, and that there are anthropogenic contributions to it. This is supported by the fact that most major scientific organisations have issued official statements that they agree with the "consensus position."

"We all (should) know that Toyota is about to replace Ford as the biggest auto manufacturer in the world. This is in part due to their reputation as fuel-efficient."

Actually GM is the largest in the world (and they were looking into making an alliance with Renault-Nissan for all of their survival's sake). :-p But on the positive side, the U.S. car makers (mostly due to legislation) have made major changes over the past 30 years. They still have a ways to go but then so does this society as a whole, where people would rather do "extreme commuting" to their worksite rather than live closer to their offices, etc.

I recall a few years ago a report that indicated that the average last frost date in spring and average first frost date in fall in the Philadelphia area were running about a week earlier for the former and almost 2 weeks later for the latter. It'll be interesting to see if that widening of the growing season is sustained over a long term. But what makes it rough here in the spring is that big old Atlantic Ocean that although helps to keep it warm in fall through to almost December, also drags out the cold in spring because it takes so darn long for it to warm up again.

Are any of you experiencing hotter nights? It used to be when the sun went down during the summer here in Colorado the temperature got really cool. If you went out in the evening during the summer you had to take a jacket.

Now the temperature stays in the 70's and 80's past midnight.

Warmer nights might be good for the vegetables, but I am not sure? Does anyone know?

Good point about the Hot topics area. I can't say I've ever posted there, but what I have read was a lot of what you were describing.

gshann, those people on Hot Topics were the rudest bunch of people that I have run across on any forums.

They also use a lot of meaningless words that are hard to understand.

It would not be a Forum that I recommend.

super problem coming up right now. it is happening now.

If the number of frost free days increases up around Palmer, Alaska will we see 200 pound cabbbages?

No. You will not have 200 pound cabbages.

wow this is an active thread.

I believe the answer is obvious. so I will not comment on it.

warm nights are not good for plants and animals during times of high temperatures. the plants get stressed in the day time and need the cool nights to repair themselves. when it stays hot at night they do not repair and then another day of stress comes. it is very bad for plants.

in the north there are many bugs etc that die in the winter and so are not around up in the north. but they are heavy in the south. as the winter warms up these bugs can expand into the north. this causes an attack on native species that never saw these bugs before. the plants can not move north so easy out of the way of the bugs. so again it is not good for the native plants.

As to warmer night temperatures... since a large number of our vegetables herald from warmer tropical climates, _those_ vegetables would benefit. Eggplant, gourds, melons, sweet potatoes, and okra in particular; but also tomatoes, peppers (especially C. baccatum), squash, cowpeas (or southern peas), peanuts, and limas. Even my snap beans go crazy when night temps are above 70.

The losers are the cool-weather vegetables, including the cabbage family, onions, potatoes, lettuce, peas, many root vegetables, and cool-weather greens. But then, it may just mean that these vegetables would need to be planted in an earlier (or later) time frame.

For the most part, warmer nights = more rapid growth, which is usually a good thing. But those warmer night temps often are accompanied by increased humidity, which may promote some diseases (such as PM).

As best I can determine the record in Alaska is 105.6 pounds and in Wales it is 124 pounds. How big can we expect cabbages to get when the days get warmer at these higher latitudes?

Albert, 200 lbs sounds about right.

Sweltering July was 2nd-hottest on record. Overall, the first seven months of 2006 were the warmest January-July of any year in the United States on record.

I found this article to be very interesting.

I must admit I did not read the above post. Just wanted to mention something that may be of interest to some gardeners. If the link below doesn't work just go to conversations and search/look for "Global Warming or FEAR".

I am a scientist by profession, and I DO NOT buy into the whole "Global Warming" scare. There are several reasons I don't, but the most important is that we are now, for the most part, an educated society. We always try and label things with a name that have been taking place for millions of years. We also try and put a solution to everything that happens naturally in the environment when sometimes mother nature is the only being that can sort things out like they should be.

The fact of the matter is no matter if we all stopped consuming fossil fuels tomorrow there would still be another ice age on this planet for as long as this planet exists. Nothing you or I, or even out children can do will stop that. The dinosaurs became extinct for the most part in our last ice age at around 10,000 years ago. Right now we are in an interglacial phase that could last another 7,000 to 10,000 years before the next ice age hits. Nothing you or I can do will ever change that.

It's no different than the fact that one day our sun will simply burn out and become a dead star. Then what will happen to life on earth? Life as we know it will cease to exist, and there is nothing any of us can do about it.

So, to put it quite simply I do not buy into the whole 'Global warming' junk that so many scientists are trying to 'prove'. I had a professor in my graduate studies that said , "If you try and find an answer long enough you can prove pretty much anything." In saying this he went on to explain that we as humans have a limited knowledge of our surroundings, and when we have an unanswered question we make up an answer that makes sense even if it's not the right one. Then we go on to try and convince everyone else around us that we are right, and in doing this we somehow solidify our own self doubt in that others think it's right, so it must be. See my point?

"The dinosaurs became extinct for the most part in our last ice age at around 10,000 years ago"

Hey, um, Lucky...I'm not an argumentive type, but I thought the dinosaurs were wiped out like 65 million years ago and that the last ice age did creatues like the sabre-tooth tiger and mammoths in.

Clock

Sometimes, as in this case, multiple sources of evidence are obvious and irrefutable. There will always be those who will never believe, scientists or not.

Not so sure about the irrefutable part. I see very little irrefutable evidence. The only fact seems to be that the temp has increased. Beyond that, the eveidence about the cause is very far from irrefutable. Denier or Alarmist you may be but the truth probably lies somewhere in between. I get the idea that when Mother Nature is done with us there is not much we are going to be able to do about it.

Like any of this will matter after alien Elvis clones take over our planet and force us all into slave labor, harvesting gooseberries, their only food source.

I doubt any of this will affect us in our lifetimes, but everyone should try to help. Not alot to ask.

Clock

I live in Colorado, not on a river in Egypt.

Yes, global warming is real. Yes, the overwhelming majority of scientists realize this and believe we should take action. The evidence is overwhelming.

My 31st wedding aniversary (had I stayed married) would have been next week. In 1976, I chose mid-May because that's when the lilacs would be in bloom, and they're my favorite flower.

Now they bloom in April.

Where I live used to be Zone 5. Now it's Zone 6.

Two summers ago, I had a nifty little gadget that measured temperature, humidity, etc. Its display got up to 122 degrees, its maximum, and then it broke. The heat fried it.

If the warming were to happen in a period of several thousand years, or even several hundred, then perhaps we could adapt. Perhaps the plants, bugs, birds, fish, trees would adapt. But global warming is happening quickly, in decades or years, and evolution happens slowly. There isn't enough time. The Front Range and eastern Colorado may become desert in 20 years. Then there will be no gardens here. When I finally get the wherewithal to do some landscaping for the home I bought last year, I'm going to have to think 20-30 years into the future and landscape for Arizona terrain, not Colorado's.

Don't buy beachfront property.

Do what I am doing. Alot of gravel, raised beds filled to the brim and a few boulders and fountains for touch. Viola'!

Clock

Gee I thought I'd read something of value when I saw "I am a scientist by profession, and I DO NOT buy into the whole "Global Warming" scare".

Then I read "The dinosaurs became extinct for the most part in our last ice age at around 10,000 years ago.".

I seldom visit any of the GW forums since ivillage invaded, see why?

So I have 2 observations -

1. Apparently they don't spend much money on education in Kentucky, who knew?

2. I'm gathering my tomato plants and heading for Ellesmere Island. By mid summer it'll be in the 80's and I'll have lots of fresh water.

Now I have 2 more observations -

1. I bet that 0.000001% of the 2005 poulation of Kentucky knows where Ellesmere Island is and that's 4.17 people. Um, that is probably too high an estimate.

2. I bet that 0.000001% of the US population knows where Ellesmere Island is and that's 301 people so that's why I'll go to Ellesmere Island.

It's not the heat, it's the stupidity.

Global whining is a serious threat to our survival.

Tom

Tom,

"Global whining is a serious threat to our survival"

You sure got that right! ~grin~

Good luck with your maters on Ellesmere. I'd suggest you very, very gradually develop a taste for musk ox, though.

Hal

The effects of global warming on gardening/farming won't be so bad here. It's expected to create a lot more productive northern land and lengthen our growing season here in Canada.

Sucks to be a polar bear though. I suppose they'll all move to Churchill.

Ahhhhh we are all going to die!!!

The truth is you do more for the environment by going outside and planting a few more tomato plants then by reading endless articles. Especially on a computer that is using precious natural resources. If you want to ride bike instead of drive do it. If you garden extensively, or as extensively as you are able, GREAT!! But voting on this one issue etc....is a tad crazy. A few points...

1 - Gore, and his ilk, don't talk about it but eating large amounts of meat is the number 1 cause of "Global warming". It doesn't get you elected to say "Eat less beef" because then the cattle lobby stops funding you. Way to put the environment first!!

2 - Antarctica is melting!!! Wait, no, only half of it is. The other half is expanding. hmmm

3 - I am going to assume that the claims that global warming will cause an ice age because of melting ice was a joke, since it makes very little sense. Finite about of ice, non-finite amount of solar radiation... Still leaves you with a warming trend. (if you believe these claims) The most scientific argument I have heard would go, massive drought, forest fire, causing deeper droughts, causing more fires causing de-vegetation causing more air pollution until the suns rays slowly give us less and less warmth. Still those positing these opinions don't mention that this isn't something that will take 10 years or even 50...global climactic change causing an ice age would take a millennia...even with humans involved.

4 - Last point is that the oldest vegetative DNA we have found comes from, I believe, 117k years ago and indicates that the temperature was actually a lot hotter in the past then now.

If you are part of The Green Party, A Democrat, (up here) NDP etc... and you want to make environmentalism important tout the points that we KNOW. Cars cause pollution this causes our kids to have a higher risk for Asthma. Polluted air stinks and we don't want to smell it. Drivers are idiots and honk a lot and we want to be able to sit outside without listening to honking (yes noise pollution counts!!). We want water we can drink and it is easier to cut pollution then to set-up crazy filtration systems. Also PLEASE stop talking about saving the planet. People, in general, don't care about "The Planet"...If you are saving anything, it is the human race. Mama Nature is quite able, and willing, to kill us all and start over with never a blink.

Ok I am done. Sorry for the rant. For the record I do ride bike everywhere, have never owned a car or driven one, am 90% or more vegetarian and for that matter don't use heat or AC in my home, I find it much nicer to be adapted to my environment then vice versa. Clean air, clean water are great...I just don't agree with sacrificing mental health for them.

>> organic_farmer_bob - Gore, and his ilk,

First of all, with that comment you dropped your pants and showed me what youre all about. I have no idea if Gore is using this as an election bid or not but I do know hes been talking about this for years and years. Not one of those Johnny come lately. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable politicians in the world on the subject. Knowledge on a subject? What a concept. Contrast that with the utter incompetence we now have in Washington. Could only be better. You can disagree with his and thousands of others conclusions but you cant dispute the facts. The oceans are rising, measured and proven. The temperature of Earth is rising, measured and proven. I couldnt care less whats causing it or whether its happened 5,000 times before. Its happening NOW to MY children and grandchildren.

>>>>4 - Last point is that the oldest vegetative DNA we have found comes from, I believe, 117k years ago and indicates that the temperature was actually a lot hotter in the past then now.


117k years ? Small potatoes. From the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, a critical greenhouse gas, is higher than it has been for at least 650,000 years. The average temperature of the Earth is heading for levels not experienced for millions of years.

In case you cant do the math, thats about 6 or 7 ice ages.


Please dont shoot the messenger, they are NOT his facts but from more than 2000 scientific experts, 1200+ authors, 130+ countries, 6 years of work. Read the report.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change IPCC


Ill cast my lot with that ILK any day.


And to answer the original posters subject "Will Global Warming Affect Gardening?".

It already has.

>> organic_farmer_bob

In case that report is too much for you, how about this FAQ from


The Union of Concerned Scientists

From todays nytimes.com. (I won't bother to link it as I don't know how long the link will be valid.)
Quote:A Greenlandic supermarket is stocking locally grown cauliflower, broccoli and cabbage this year for the first time. Eight sheep farmers are growing potatoes commercially. Five more are experimenting with vegetables. And Kenneth Hoeg, the regions chief agriculture adviser, says he does not see why southern Greenland cannot eventually be full of vegetable farms...

Greenland? isn't that located somewhere near Atlanta? No, Atlanta is drying up so maybe this Greenland place is in Brazil?

For the past few decades people have been noticing and adapting to a changing environment.

It isn't a question of will it affect gardening, it already has.

We have insect pests not previously able to overwinter in places with cold winters starting to do so. We have alternating years of abundant rain followed by years of drought which results in increased fires both in terms of the fire season being extended and the severity of those fires.

We have long term droughts going on such as Australia which is now over 30 years into a drought and running out of water. Florida and California have largely exhausted their easily available water supplies and there is no relief in site. The Great Lakes region where I live continues to see lake levels drop. Increasing numbers of communities are implementing water bans/restrictions during the gardening season to deal with the water shortage.

This isn't all based upon some pseudo science, it is a reaction to the situation we are all being faced with.

Of course climate change is occurring. It is a no brainer.

As most of you know, I am heavily into organic gardening, no pesticides, no synthetic fertilizers, open-pollenated crops, etc. But I can't sit still and read this thread any longer. I hope that you are all open-minded out there and will consider some of the things I'm going to say without flaming me. It's too bad that this is such a politically-charged issue, with so many matter-of-fact generalities.

The truth is, the whole climate change debate is very dangerous. Not to the world's climate, but to you and your children. Basically it is a religion, and there are a bunch of people out there hoping to control you with this issue. Truth is, they already are controlling you. Before you get upset, read the rest of this post, do your own research, and really, really, really think about this issue.

First of all, Al Gore's film is a complete sham. Almost all of it has been disproved by real scientists. There is so much deception in that film it is not even funny. The true purpose of that film is to further Al Gore's political career. Don't believe me ? Watch what happens in the next year. Al will have another go at the White House.

As far as a "consensus" of scientists supporting Al Gore, well, take a look at the press. There have been so many scientists speaking out against what the film's message is. By the way, the world has been hotter than it is now, and colder too, all without human causes (millions of years ago). Also keep in mind that a lot of the "scientists" supporting the theory that humans are causing global warming are doing so because this is the easiest way they can get funding. They certainly won't get it speaking out against the issue. Don't tell me this isn't a political issue.

The sun, volcanoes and forest fires have far more influence on the earth's climate than we could ever have. And that is the honest to gosh truth. 30 years ago these same "scientists" were speaking out about global cooling. 8 years ago they were scaring everyone that the world was going to end with Y2K when all the world's machines would shut down. Now they've latched onto global warming. And the politicians are going to make you, John Q Public, pay for it. Through artificially higher energy costs, legislation that will limit what you can and cannot do, and all the while they will live in their 12 bedroom mansions with their $1500 a month electricity bills driving their Bentleys and SL600 Mercedes (this is Al Gore, by the way). Wake up.

I'm not necessarily saying climate change isn't happening, of course it is. The "climate", whatever that is, is always changing. It always has, throughout history. Look at south and central america. Abandoned Inca and Aztec cities. Why were they abandoned ? Prolonged drought in many cases. Long before we were pumping so-called greenhouse gases into the environment.

By the way, I am not "for" pollution either. I'm just saying that us, a bunch of ants crawling around on this ball of mud, are not changing the climate by any appreciable amount at all. Don't let anyone fool you.

Anyway, I could go on for hours about this. I just encourage you to not follow the crowd and do your own independent thought and research.

Wayne

There are so many reasons that pumping huge amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere is A Bad Thing that seriously, isn't it a good idea to stop it even if by some slim chance it's NOT the reason that our climate is shifting suspiciously fast?

I heard the first rational arguement regarding global warming last week. It made perfect sense to me. I'll try to write a very short version here.

1. The earth goes through cycles of warming and cooling. I think we can all agree with this. There is plenty of proof of warmer and cooler temperatures in past history.

2. The earth's climate is a heavily damped system. This makes a lot of sense. When it gets warm, there are natural phenomenom that cool the earth. Someone else mentioned that if the polar ice caps melt then the gulf stream will slow due to the fresh water in the oceans.

3. It really doesn't matter if "humans cause global warming" in the big picture. The only effect could be that the cycle speeds up during the cold part of the cycle. The earth corrects. Arguing whether humans cause global warming is irrelvant!

Twenty years ago we were warned about a new ice age. Were you affected by the ice age that we were warned about? Maybe we averted that by dumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Who knows, maybe we saved our gardens from dropping a zone.

Bottom line: We're too small in the big picture to cause much change. At best, we can speed up a cold cycle slightly.

I'm sick and tired of Al Gore and his cause. The man has absolutely no scientific background. Didn't he invent the internet? :)

Wayne and Macheske,

the point of any concern about "GW" is not whether the earth has been very warm or warmer in the past, but about the RATE of change. The warmer globes of the past came about much more slowly and thus were more stable systems, possibly. Even so the warming and cooling of the past may have eliminated many species.

The indications are that the modern climate is changing VERY fast. Whether that is partly or entirely anthropic or whether certain demogogues will attempt to further their own ends doesn't alter any real climatic happenings. So in fact it will turn out to be advisable for us as a culture to learn to deal with some likely consequences: drought, displacement, significant changes in lifestyle.

This isn't in essence a political issue.

Pnbrown,
Where did you get the information that the modern climate is changing "VERY fast"? How fast is very? 0.2 degrees over 80 years doesn't seem fast. The earth warming and cooling is a VERY stable system. That I have proof of....it's called history. What bothers me is that some people think that they can play God. They're not going to make any difference. My whole point is that it really doesn't matter if people, the sun or camel excrement is causing global warming.

I'm sick and tired of politicians trying to find ways to increase our taxes. This is just the latest method of trying.

I suppose that if the northern artic ice cap vanishes by 2030 or so that it's perfectly normal? It has existed for at least 3 million years (up to 50 million by some estimates but I use 3 million as the most conservative) and that's through several past iceages (~30 of them based upon ~100,000 year cycles) and it still existed during their in-between warming periods. If the ice cap goes then would you consider that Al Gore is indeed on to something? If you do by then you will be like the last person on the Titanic to admit that she was indeed sinkable after all (once their feet got wet). We can and are changing the Earth's atmosphere just as the earliest life forms created the oxygen portion way back then. Don't under estimate man's influence and don't over estimate what the earth can do to compensate for it.

>>> macheske - That I have proof of....it's called history

How about THIS history from the annual meeting of The American Association for the Advancement of Science,

The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, a critical greenhouse gas, is higher than it has been for at least 650,000 years. The average temperature of the Earth is heading for levels not experienced for millions of years.


Thats about 6 or 7 ice ages. Seems like a lot of history to me.
Some more history, try reading the FAQ from The Union of Concerned Scientists

from item 5) Are humans contributing to global warming?

Scientists have found significant evidence that leads to this conclusion: "The observed warming over the past 100 years is unlikely to be due to natural causes alone; it was unusual even in the context of the last 1,000 years


And then there is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) who comprises experts from more than 130 countries that contributed to the latest assessment, which represents six years of work. More than 450 lead authors have received input from more than 800 contributing authors, and an additional 2,500 experts reviewed the draft documents.

How about their latest report

The report finds that it is "very likely" that emissions of heat-trapping gases from human activities have caused "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century."

>>>> macheske - How fast is very? 0.2 degrees over 80 years doesn't seem fast.

Additional IPCC Findings on Future Climate Change
Rising Temperatures
The full range of projected temperature increase is 2 to 11.5 degrees Fahrenheit (1.1 to 6.4 degrees Celsius) by the end of the century. Note that the upper end of the range is higher than the prior IPCC assessment, mainly because of increased understanding that "warming tends to reduce land and ocean uptake of atmospheric carbon dioxide, increasing the fraction of [carbon dioxide] emissions that remains in the atmosphere."
The best estimate range of projected temperature increase, which extends from the midpoint of the lowest emission scenario to the midpoint of the highest, is 3.1 to 7.2 degrees Fahrenheit (1.8 to 4.0 degrees Celsius) by the end of the century.
"Warming is expected to be greatest over land and at most high northern latitudes, and least over the Southern [formerly Antarctic] Ocean and parts of the North Atlantic Ocean."

How about this history?
"The report also confirms that the current atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide and methane, two important heat-trapping gases, "exceeds by far the natural range over the last 650,000 years." Since the dawn of the industrial era, concentrations of both gases have increased at a rate that is "very likely to have been unprecedented in more than 10,000 years."

Ice loss 'opens Northwest Passage' - Ice cover in the Arctic Ocean, long held to be an early warning of a changing climate, has shattered the all-time low record this summer, scientists say.

Your statements about Al Gore show me exactly where youre coming from.

Thanks for the links kkfromnj. If this thread melts away due to content you all can make your GWing points over on the Hot Topics forum where there are numerous threads on the topic.

The 800 lb gorilla is the artic icecap IMHO, if it vanishes I hate to think how temps in the northern hemisphere will react during the summer. I've always wanted to grow oranges here in Va ;o)....but then I'd have to give up on apples and other chill hour dependant varieties :o(

ok, now we're getting into alot of specifics here. The North Pole has not always been covered in ice, even in recent history. Also, where did the name Greenland come from? or Vinland, for that matter ? These are very northern areas, yet in (relatively) modern times appear to have been quite a bit warmer.

Again, I want to reiterate that I am absolutely NOT for pollution, but I just don't think that we are causing significant climate change.

Another sticky point: there is no way to measure "average" temperature. In fact, there really is no such thing. I have a friend who is a biochemist who has a company that makes viral cultures in a "large" reactor. Large meaning about 50 gallons. He tells me that there is absolutely no way for him to measure the temperature of the solution to an accuracy of better than 2 degrees fahrenheit. HE'S A SCIENTIST. And we're supposed to believe that we can measure the "average" temperature of the earth, a much more chaotic system, to accuracies of 0.2 degrees? This is ridiculous in the extreme.

My sincere hope is that this whole climate change fad is really a masterful way to convince people to switch to nuclear power instead of burning hydrocarbons for electricity generation. Perhaps that's all it is -- get the environmentalists to start backing nuclear power. And that would be a very good thing for the world.

Wayne

Sorry, VK, you won't be able to cultivate those orange trees no matter how long or warm summer gets - there will be more than enough severe winter events to kill the trees. It only takes one.

Glad to hear that the liberal pack animals are out in force. In twenty or thirty years we'll know who's right. BTW....aren't we supposed to be in that ice age that the climitoligists predicted about 20 years ago? Hmmm...maybe you should move to Greenland. Oh, take Al Gore with you.

Like it was said earlier. This is all political hype though I do wish some good would come of it, like becoming energy independant due to a much higher use of nuclear plants. Oh...you probably wouldn't like that either.

"The North Pole has not always been covered in ice, even in recent history."

Depends on if you think 3 million years is recent I suppose? If you have data on that I'd like to add it to my files.

"liberal pack animals"
my, how nice.

PN, just some tongue in cheek, I'll be dead by then anyways.

Since this topic has morphed into a debate about the existence of global climate change, I'd like to offer a compromise. We can argue until we're blue in the face about whether or not global climate change is a threat. We won't know 100% for years. Instead, we can chose to use no till gardening. Soil is the third largest sink for carbon storage and tilling speeds decomposition that releases CO2. We can chose to end our addiction to oil that pollute and create dependence on foreign countries. We can burn less coal and switch to local wind/solar/hydro and other sustainable energies. A solar array on your home will pay for itself. Who likes paying for utilities? Using low polluting energy and changing your behavior to waste less leads to a better life. I'd like to hear an argument against that.

An argument against it? I suppose the skeptics would say that such a mindset puts democrats in office and increases taxes.

Macheske: Past climate fluctuations have coincided with specific events. In some cases, Milankovich factors, in other cases, bolide impacts, volcanism, tectonis activity, etc. In other words, we can explain past warmings by the natural events that were occuring, but we cannot do the same with the current climate change.

What is unique about the current warming is that our current Milankovich conditions do not predict the extent of warming that we see (I believe they predict cooling?), and there have been no bolide impacts (etc.)

Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that humans had not pumped any CO2 into the air over the past 150 years, but that volcanism had been increasing, such that atmospheric CO2 levels had increased by a factor of 2 - 3 (150ppm --> 380ppm). Imagine that that was the scenario we were facing. Increased volcanic activity equivalent to the carbon output that humans are responsible for, and rising temperatures.

Would you be so quick to say that such a hypothetical natural event (volcanism) which was spewing CO2 into the air had no impact on observed warming?

The concern that I expressed much earlier in this thread (tongue-in-cheek at the time) seems to have been justified - it has indeed morphed into a "hot topics" thread, with some of the same incivility & strife that caused me to avoid that forum. Catfishsam, I fully agree with your reasons for staying away from that forum... though you sure stirred up a hornet's nest on this one.

We have, for the most part, drifted far beyond the question posed by the OP, and into the realm of politics - which to this gardener is not fertile ground. I would much prefer the more more constructive discourse & camaraderie usually found in this forum. Notable exceptions made, and tips of the hat, to those who have posted links to scientific data.

For those interested in climate, there is an interesting documentary currently running on the National Geographic Channel. It discusses the effect that changes in the sun may have on our climate. No, I would not propose this as an alternative to existing climate theory... only suggest that climatology is still a young science with more to learn, and we may not yet fully understand all of the factors involved.

In these last centuries, years, and days, things have been evolving to a higher and higher scientific achievment. It is snowballing now at a terrific speed. Just think......the 1900s started with the horse and buggy and 70 years later men were on the moon.
Now I believe that all things are coming to a head. I don't see how they can continue at this rate whether we are talking about pollution, using and abusing this old planet, or morality.
I believe that there is Someone who has both the first and last thing to say and He will say it. I cannot believe that we should entirely leave out the One who made all things and that for His good pleasure. True....we cannot go further on this subject, but I think it needed to be said somewhere in all the endless rhetiric that can be said on this subject.
So I think that in the meantime we should be good stewards.

>>> wayne - Now I believe that all things are coming to a head.

Speaking of coming to a head, did anybody see the new installment on the history channel The Lost Book of Nostradamus? Scary Stuff.

I realize this doesnt prove anything but CNN just reported last month was the warmest October on record, Huh, you dont have to hit me over the head with a shovel.