In case nobody has told you humans are part of nature's model. It's people that want to deny that fact that create the problem in urban settings.

Like squirrels the rodent population wouldn't be that much worse without the birds because they don't have to risk exposure until they are overpopulated. There are plenty of places without many birds of prey and they don't have rodents running everywhere.

Many times I've seen on this forum someone new expressing their lament that squirrels, coddling moth, or something else took all their fruit and act as if something strange were happening to them. Even in my locale there are numerous unmanaged trees in the area that produce no edible fruit because of insects.

One may wonder why nature hasn't balanced things out after decades here. The answer is it has. Nature has no goal of providing food measuring to the extravagant standards of human beings. In a broad sense all nature is required to provide is food for survival (which is generally not at a level we humans would consider satisfactory).

In a specific sense nature doesn't even have to provide fruit. All that's required for say, a peach tree's reproduction is to make seed. As in the case of Oriental Fruit moth (which can lay 100 eggs per female) the tree doesn't care if 100% of the fruit is invested with worms, it has only a nominal effect on the tree's reproduction.

Similarly in forested areas around here "wild" apple trees don't produce any fruit fit to eat.

I love being outside, but I've long ago dropped any nostalgia that nature will balance out if it's left alone and provide delicious apples and peaches for our enjoyment. No, it's tooth and claw. Around here, if you want to grow fruit it's a bloody fight all the way through to protect it. Something is going to eat the fruit - insects, squirrels, deer, etc. Since we humans are at the top of the food chain, and the most discriminating, we tend to get what's left over, which without serious intervention on our part, can be very dissatisfying.

As a disenchanted former flower child I completely agree with olpea. There is no harmonious balance of nature designed to suit the needs of men or any species. Gardening is about tilting the natural balance of nature to man's advantage and it's an epic struggle to maintain this imbalance. It's what I go out and do every day.

Well put, olpea.
I especially like the idea of sharing with the squirrels, birds or whatever pest of the day it is. Like animals have any concept of sharing.

Let me stir up the discussion a bit here -- too much agreeing going on!

While I agree that "war" is often the proper metaphor when interacting with the squirrels and birds, it is often not the right metaphor for diseases and pests. An analogy exists with modern medicine. Medicine focuses on the disease X and its cure Y. It has until recently paid too little attention to the general health and well-being of the patient, but every day we are learning more about how good diet, exercise, and having good mental attitude will lead to fewer diseases. Plants are also living things and the exact same principle holds for them. Also, every plant comes from a different climate and it is difficult to figure out what exactly makes them most happy, but its worth the effort because you will be rewarded with a more healthy tree.

I have found this analogy to hold very strongly relative to many diseases, and less with others. Bacterial spot, canker, and peach white scale on peaches are diseases that I now view as signs of a stressed tree. Persimmon psylla problems are severe on stressed trees and its almost only a cosmetic problem on a healthy tree. On the other hand, the curculio and codling moth could really care less how the tree is feeling, its going to get its job done. Well, I expect that the healthier tree may have a bit more resistance to these pests but not enough to really matter in the end.

The problem with this debate is on one end you have the conventional orchardist and conventional doctor yelling "war" and on the other end you have the flower child organic orchardist and holistic medicine practitioner believing all they need is to get the energy flow in the right direction and all problems will magically vanish.

Scott

Not really, Scott. This is all in context of fighting squirrels not general plant management, although I'll stick to my point that gardeners aren't on the mission of achieving some kind of balance that occurs in nature but instead sustaining an imbalance that serves a single species that mother nature couldn't care less about (much as I truly love her, sigh).

I resent being categorized as a conventional orchardist just as you might schafe at being categorized as a conventional organic grower. I manage by both organic and conventional methods at different sites but even at conventional sites the approach is not really conventional- much, much less spray for one thing. Of course that resentment is a very thin veneer as I know you mean well.

My relationship with nature mirrors the human relationship with other humans- it includes war and cooperation- love and hate.

"Conventional" methods don't mean you don't try to disrupt nature as little as possible to get results, as you well know. Organic growers disrupt nature as much as they need to to get their desired results and we all look for ways to work ecologically.

But you aren't going to solve your squirrel problems with a healthy supply of predators. I've got lots of bob cats (which you rarely see in the day) and the coyotes are now regular citizens that I sometimes see hunting in bright daylight. The hawks are mostly a presence on my site during winter, when the leaves are off the forest trees and they can see well. On more meadow like sites I manage they are very present all year long. The squirrels are never-the less my most annoying issue. My predator-prey balance appears to be just fine.

Of course there are always the neighbors with their damn bird feeders that supply more food to rodents than birds- even if it's well designed, the birds knock off more seeds than they eat. Hard to reduce populations during winter when they've got a constant all-you-can-eat buffet. Talk about disrupting natures balance! Rat tunnels around bird feeders is a very common site.

I was once told that about the borers and my cherries, Scott.

There may be something to it, although I don't think it's the whole story.
The Rose of Sharon that were planted on the hot side of my house were always attacked by borers. They grew fine where the neighbor I got them from had them. So drought/heat stress did seem to make them a target.
We shall see, I moved the last one to the middle of my yard and there are some in partial sun volunteering at the front of the house.

But as far as the cherries go, they weren't stressed. The only stress my leaf spot cherry has now is that it doesn't get morning sun until 10am.

I can't come up with any excuse as to why unsprayed the curculio avoid the Arkansas Black but hit it with everything else sprayed. It's generally too hard so their layings don't work in it, which is a good reason to avoid it, but why go after that one and leave the others alone when they're sprayed?

Experience is a big fat liar if the only experience you draw upon is your own. Moving forward while ignoring history can be a contributing factor, as can being dismissive of opinions contrary to your own. Marginalizing a differing point of view by tagging someone with a pejorative like "flower child", without really knowing much about them, probably isn't the best way to build new experiences. :)

One of the earliest methods of dealing with loses was to plant more than you need. The Indians taught the early European settlers to plant corn in the following manner:
"Plant one for the bug, one for the crow, one to rot and two to grow."

Humans lived where you are right now before there were apple trees on the continent. There may be fruits that are better suited to your location, why not lean heavily on those varieties? Trying to force a crop into an evironment that isn't accomidating is just asking for the "war" that you're waging.

Not only can experience be a liar, but it can be a real "you-know-what-er." :)

Mr. Clint, I in no way was tagging you indirectly with the term "flower child". That was all about me and not at all about you or your perspective, which for the most part I'm in general agreement with, just not on the specifics of squirrel control.

I come out of the '60s and if you're younger than me than you might not understand what I'm talking about when referring to the naivety of us flower children, who thought we could change all negative human behavior by getting everybody to consume LSD and live together in harmony in communes (I'm simplifying it a bit here). That was also when I started gardening and thought good crops would be the automatic outcome of good karma and respecting nature.

I gardened professionally for twenty years before ever using a single synthetic chemical- but then I started trying to grow fruit in the east coast!

There are two sides to the balance/imbalance: we are trying to knock the squirrels and curculio off-balance, but get our trees more into balance. You need to play both sides of the game to win; I think you are stating the same thing in your comment about war and cooperation, hman. My point is to not get too stuck playing too much on one side, sometimes when you least expect it you can make progress on the other.

Re: the categories, I was not trying to put anyone here into a category, they were just straw-man extreme points for the purposes of discussion. All growers are playing both sides to some degree anyway since even "conventional" growers are also focused on getting better tree health with mulch, sun, fertilizer, etc.

Scott

If I follow the aboriginal Americans wisdom, I can plant all the peach trees I want for the squirrels, me and anyone else and some years the squirrels would get all the peaches if I didn't severely thin the gang with my shot gun.

Mr. Clint, I started gardening near you, I think, in Topanga Canyon and I found it equally hard to satisfy the golphers. I definitely identified with Bill Murry in Caddyshack although I was more affective with less fire power.

And the Ground squirrels would demolish almost anything edible. Besides game and seafood, that landscape doesn't naturally support much edible besides black walnuts with tiny nuts and thick shells. Good thing for all that water unnaturally brought from where they get more rain!

You can't possibly be the fruit growing obsessive I am if you could seriously suggest leaning on blueberries, raspberries, and paw paws for gratification.

I find the battle to get the fruit I love to be well worth it and the reward is highlighted by the struggle. I even make my entire living by providing others with the same pleasure and the harder it is to do the more I make and the harder I am to replace.

Not that you're advise isn't solid, just doesn't fit me.

I'm sorry Mrclint but the more you talk the more you show how much your ideas are based on some fairly tale idealism that doesn't exist and never existed.

Indians also ran whole herds of animals off cliffs and set large brush fires to control pests with no real means to put those fires out.

Just because something is natural to an area doesn't mean it's impervious to the bugs that are also natural to the area. Usually the exact opposite is the case because those bugs and that fruit are part of the circle of life you cling to with the idea of predators.
And the fact of the matter is while some of this fruit may not be native, some of the pests are also not natives.

It doesn't matter whether I grow some native plum or cherry or the plums, cherries and apples I grow. Curculio is going to lay eggs in them because the job of the tree is not to provide me with food, it's to make seeds to propagate itself.
Plus crab apples are native to North America which means apples may as well be as far as the bugs are concerned.

Scott, more than that, I try to sustain a population of insect allies and choose materials accordingly. I hold off spraying until the crop is almost entirely at risk and when something non toxic or less toxic is available I'll to go considerable extra expense and effort to use it- just not to the point of depending on Surround.

If I was a commercial grower I wouldn't have the freedom of holding off the fungicides during 2/3ds of the growing season and I couldn't allow 30% of the fruit to show some kind of bug damage. Amazingly, I actually get a lot of really rich people who previously had eaten nothing but pristine fruit to love the homlier stuff off their own trees.

First off, I want to apologize for using the term "war" in a fruit growing context. War is serious business, and with people dying in wars as we speak, the term was used in very poor taste.

OK, back to the fairy tales. :)

I've got to ask; you can't have the mindset that you're going to walk out into your garden orchard and fight with the beasties and creepy crawlies for a taste of some fresh fruit? I'd like to think that the process is much more enjoyable than that for folks. If it isn't kind of fun, relaxing and rewarding, why the heck would you do it?

I'm not sure if anyone here has read Carol Deppe's, "The Resilient Gardener," but it's a pretty good book for the most part. There isn't much info on fruit trees, but many of her points are generally applicable. She talks about the "Grand Alliance," which she sees as a "complex association of humans, plants, animals and entire landscapes that have domesticated and shaped each other over the generations." The point being that all are willing particpants and have their place in the alliance. I like to think that you still have to make some peace with the landscape and natural forces as they are probably the least apt to sign-up for the team. But being or feeling part of what's around me helps my attitude and makes me less grouchy. :)

One of her chapters is titled, "The 33 Golden Rules of Gardening." Topics include: Plant Things That Grow Where You Live, and Resist the Temptation to Do Unnecessary things. The latter is kind of like saying, "The more you do, the more you have to do." Hey what we do is what we have signed up for, right? You spray, so now you have to spray. You hand pick bugs, so now you have to hand pick bugs, etc. It's not all bad of course, but makes you think about what you spend your time doing. Do my rows really need to be as straight as a chalk line? Do I really need to fuss over a couple of pinholes in the plum tree leaves?

Just tossing more ideas into the fray, as with everything else, feel free to use it or compost it. :)

I thought those brush fires were to keep the forests more hospitable to game and aid the hunt- what pests? What do you mean they had no means to put the fires out? Why on earth would they? The fires apparently didn't put much of a dent in the percentage of land that was forest when Euros arrived. Must have just run there course and extinguished themselves.

Mr. Clint, you seem a very sensitive soul. War is commonly used metaphorically in the language and it needn't refer to the realities of war between humans. Sport teams are always going to "war" against one another.

I'm not saying that it's not an admirable campaign to try to keep people aware of the horrors of war but trying to change language usage is a futile war.

Mr. Clint, I'd also like to add that the gardening philosophy you discuss is something most serious gardeners are aware of but it's not so relevent when discussing edible gardening where plants have been purposely bred with decreasing amounts pest resistance to make them more flavorful and nourishing.

The pests of carrots and broccoli, for example, are far more susceptible to aphids and other pests then the natives they were bred from because bitter and perhaps toxic compounds have been reduced to make better, more useful vegetables. Same thing happens when you breed for bigger, sweeter fruit.

Mr. Clint, I'd also like to add that the gardening philosophy you discuss is something most serious gardeners are aware of but it's not so relevent when discussing edible gardening where plants have been purposely bred with decreasing amounts pest resistance to make them more flavorful and nourishing.

The pests of carrots and broccoli, for example, are far more susceptible to aphids and other pests then the natives they were bred from because bitter and perhaps toxic compounds have been reduced to make better, more useful vegetables. Same thing happens when you breed for bigger, sweeter fruit.

Mr. Clint, I'd also like to add that the gardening philosophy you discuss is something most serious gardeners are aware of but it's not so relevent when discussing edible gardening where plants have been purposely bred with decreasing amounts pest resistance to make them more flavorful and nourishing.

The pests of carrots and broccoli, for example, are far more susceptible to aphids and other pests then the natives they were bred from because bitter and perhaps toxic compounds have been reduced to make better, more useful vegetables. Same thing happens when you breed for bigger, sweeter fruit.

Ideas of Grand Alliance and depending on predators to protect fruit seem to work better in dry places like California.

I don't think it's so much that the predators are keeping pests in check as it is there is less life in general under dessert conditions. For the most part, less life means less pressure on the fruit.

Sometimes I think it's difficult for folks in drier parts of the country to understand how much insect life there is here. Water is the magic ingredient. Because we get plenty of it here, the land is teeming with life/insects. Simply laying down in the grass in the summertime will guarantee a good dose of chiggers under your clothes.

I know of some folks west of the continental divide actually open a window at night without a screen. Here you don't dare go out the front door at night if you've left the porch light on. You'll let a swarm of insects in.

I do agree it is sometimes possible to grow traditional tree fruits without control measures if there are only a few isolated trees, even in humid climates (i.e. under a backyard situation). The problem is if several neighbors start doing it, as the number of backyard plantings increase so does the pest pressure.

Taken to its logical conclusion, if everyone plants a backyard orchard, essentially you have one big neighborhood commercial orchard, with its accompanying pest pressure. This would describe the pest pressure in my own neighborhood.

There is a certain psychological appeal to growing fruits that have natural immunity against pests. It can be a deeply moving image. There is something almost spiritual about it. The thought that we could go out and pick fruit as if we were in a Garden of Eden is magically romantic. The thought of a naked woman by our side doesn't hurt either :-)

However, on a practical level, the problem as Hman points out is the very limited number of choices available to folks in humid areas (I'm sure CA has a broader array of fruits that would fit this criteria.) The other problem is many of these fruits are considered second tier fruits and are not quite to the standards many people (myself included) prefer.

As far as I know one reason they set the fires was to control insects just like early farmers used to. They also set them to drive game. I didn't know the woodland Indians set the woods on fire.
Of course the fires burned themselves out, because they didn't have people who think they know best when they actually know nothing saying you can't cut down trees and have to put out all fires so the woods would get overgrown and fires would happen that would get way out of control.
My point was that the thought of the Indians being in complete harmony with the land to the standards of today's pseudoenvironmentalists is a complete fairy tale.

"Topics include: Plant Things That Grow Where You Live, and Resist the Temptation to Do Unnecessary things. The latter is kind of like saying, "The more you do, the more you have to do.""

When I first read that my thought was where's the challenge and work ethic. Then I remembered you were the one who thought shoving grape cuttings in the ground was too much work.
So I'm left asking again, why do you bother growing anything? I was militant organic for a long time, from my experience and what you have said you can't be getting that great of fruit so if the idea is to not have any work or challenge why not run down to the farmers market and buy it?

"The problem is if several neighbors start doing it, as the number of backyard plantings increase so does the pest pressure."

Or in my case you have a lazy neighbor who decides to let nature take its course with his fruit because he read some literature from some pseudoenvironmentalists. Even using IMP means I have to do a full spray regime because he is the breeding ground for pests and disease.
I could blindly spray by the calender and not be spraying much more than I do. I can only hope the fireblight finishes off his trees before it spreads to mine so bad it's uncontrollable.

Back when I was going to hort-school one of my teachers mentioned that east coast aboriginals set fires as a means of managing the forests. I really have no knowledge on the subject besides that piece of hearsay.

I can see how agricultural aboriginals would have used fire to destroy pests or possibly make potassium more available. I have read that even migratory hunting NA's often grew stands of corn but kept moving their crops from site to site to sustain substantial cropping. They didn't need to be terribly efficient as far as land use goes. So much land- so few people.

If I had a situation where I was dealing with swarms of bugs, I'd probably look into erecting some kind of bat box. One bat can eat about 2000 bugs a night. On top of that you get free guano for the garden.

Yes, I'm the shiftless "fairy teller" guy that believes his free time is of more value than his work time, because I have much less of the former. My goal, as stated time and time again, is to walk outside my door and pick fresh fruit and veggies every day of the year.

My fairy tale for today goes like this:
This morning I brought in Red-Ribbed Swiss Chard and red & green scallions for Eggs Florentine for breakfast. The eggs were garnished with fresh shell peas and Nasturtiums. After breakfast I got some compost ready to spread on the lawn and planted a Wurtz Avocado tree, and patches of Stevia and Sweet Basil. After lunch (leftover Mexican food from last night) I brought in Meyer Lemons and Lane Late Navel Oranges. I'm sipping fresh lemonade right now - so good that I didn't have to add a speck of sugar. The navels have been so sweet this year that we've been having them for desert. I'm happy with my fairy tale, Mr. Grouchy pants. :)

I happily left your fairy tale but I remember it well. As long as you don't have to leave your private Eden and deal with that horrible traffic, all's well in that unplanned and chaotic metropolis.

Don't think you should waste your time preaching to us humid region growers though. You have no clue what our world is like but it has it's rewards as well- real seasons are a gardeners delight in some ways and spring actually SPRINGS!

I'd die before I'd ever live in the valley, if that's where you reside. To me it was ugly enough when I first saw it in 1963 and in 64 I had to take a bus to go to Jr. High School there (now called middle school). I refused to go to high school there and hitch hiked to Venice to go to continuation school instead.

Maybe that's not where you live. Anyway, everyone one has there own version of utopia and I'm very happy with my orchard in the northeast woods, even if I rely on a freezer to enjoy my garden all year long.

The fairy tale stream of consciousness was simply playing off of some negativity that I so cleverly turned into a positive. I'm OK letting that stream dry up at this point. :)

Yes, I'm in the horrible, horrible Valley. The heat, crowds and traffic are impossible. Did I leave something out? Oh yeah, our taxes, and politics are the absolute worst. That should sum it up.

Everyone, please stay where you are, it's not worth it to move here. You'll hate it and you'll just be another malcontent constantly blathering on about "Back Home." I repeat, stay where you are. You've been warned. :)

I have read that you can not stop squirrels. If you do remove a whole colony, then another will replace it.
The link below has a few ideals.

Here is a link that might be useful: Techniques to control Squirrels

Bats fly by night. Apple maggot and as far as I know plum curculio fly by day. Got any other solutions that won't work? (BTW, I looked up fox squirrels in CA and it seems you're having issues with them in spite of all the predators living in your area.)

Living in zone 10 and saying grow what works in your area and to do as little work as possible to grow it is a fairy tale when you're telling people in zone 6-3 to do that. Isn't that what this thread started off to be about?
I'd rather listen to the NorEastern hippies who also have ways to pick crops year round. Their ideas are a lot more realistic.

You can look at "fairy tale" as negativity if you want but I look at coming into a thread acting holier than everyone else while you're doing exactly what the thread is about as the real negativity.

No worries about me moving to SoCal, and it's not the heat, crowds, traffic, government or taxes. It's mainly the people. I would say it was the lack of sour cherries and apples but that applies to other states as well.

Here's something interesting about squirrels. I've always liked them, but now I have a whole new respect for their intelligence.

Why would you assume that's intelligence and not instinct? Are dogs suddenly rocket scientists because they will roll in smelly stuff to fool other animals?

There are a number of ways of looking at the world around you. This dog most likely rolls around in stinky stuff and does socially inappropriate things when company comes to visit. Probably just an instinctual thing that he did here.

Yes it was instinctual. The kid is a pup in his pack.

There are a number of ways to look at things but generally only one of them is the right way. I know from dog training that people that understand pack animal instincts are better trainers than those that think dogs are furry humans.

Mr. Clint, you did leave out the smog, terrible public schools, the most inequitable property tax system in the country that drives young people away, while old people in homes they bought decades ago don't pay their share and are subsidized by more recent arrivals. I could go on, I'm a very accomplished complainer.

I should have also pointed out that people who actually have to draw their living in a natural environment tend to have a more practical view about surviving in it then city dwellers who view it on vacation or watching the nature channel.

Hman, I can totally sympathize. I was raised by radical idealists and was a flower child myself, but kept getting my head kicked in. Then I noticed that the old school people and red necks knew how to get results. I've swung the other way and am now a pragmatist. I have zero tolerance for big mouthed idealists. Olpea's remark about tooth and claw pretty much sums it up for gardening and life as far as I'm concerned.

I'm more focused on foundational principles now than specifics as means of getting results: simplify, identify and lower risks, prioritize, focus on results but enjoy the process, distrust authority, acknowledge change as the only constant in the universe.

Fruitback, thanks. However I wouldn't summerize or describe my gardening, either in business or at home, as a tooth and nail struggle. I'm another spoiled human in the industrialized and fabulously wealthy U.S. and I've never even gone to bed hungry (my mother was one of those permissive liberals who'd never send a child to bed hungry, as am I).

When a crop fails somewhere, the worst that happens is I lose a customer, and the squirrels have cost me a few customers, but never a very important one. A portion of my orchard always bears well and as an American I can enjoy the cheapest food in the world if I need any more.

However, I'm the first in my family in memory to own a real gun, capable of killing people or large varmints on hooves. I've learned to unflinchingly kill competitors and not even feel cruel about it (so far, only those on 4 legs). The death I inflict is at least swift and relatively merciful compared to what's probably in store for me and would have been for them.

But mostly tending orchards is extremely pleasurable and satisfying. I love shaping trees with a handsaw and pair of pruners, returning to trees year after year, guiding them to their abundance. It is the most intimate relationship a man can have with a plant.

When I bring bags of ripe peaches to families with children or to food banks, the satisfaction is greater for me than gifting with money. Same for the pleasure my fruit brings me when I harvest and eat it.

The orchards I manage are mostly on beautiful properties and some are in settings that are flat out unbelievable, like on a hunting preserve where I've grafted over stands of crabapples on top of a mountain where bears reside and nothing impinges the view but more mountains in the distance without a single visible man-made structure in any direction.

I work in nature every day, and that's my utopia. So don't worry Mr. Flint, I won't be showing up in Van Nuys or Tarzana any time soon. Might show up in Topanga, though, when apricots are in season. My first tree is there, 47 years after I first started tending it, and it will be loaded with apricots in a couple of months- more than the groundsquirrels and coons are likely to eat. Never been sprayed. If you bring in water, gardening in the desert can be easy but it's no more satisfying.

"Here you don't dare go out the front door at night if you've left the porch light on. You'll let a swarm of insects in."

The bat box suggestion was directed at the above comment, and was not offered as a solution to PC or anything else.

At the end of the day, we don't all have the same problems. Hopefully, we can sympathize with each other and offer what we have done or would do.

"I should have also pointed out that people who actually have to draw their living in a natural environment tend to have a more practical view about surviving in it then city dwellers who view it on vacation or watching the nature channel."

I'm not sure if Carol Deppe was city or country raised, to be honest. Is that a meaningful or commonly used filter to pass ideas or information through? Her book is getting pretty high praise on a couple of other forums. It has gaps, and is not all things to all people, but is still a worthy read.

"The problem with urban squirrels is dumb people..."

"No worries about me moving to SoCal, and it's not the heat, crowds, traffic, government or taxes. It's mainly the people..."

Nice. :)

People are people. Love some, some not so much. Not a regional issue as far as I'm concerned. I'm way too flawed to judge.

Haven't read Carol Deppe, so can only respond to what you tell me. Does she make her living from what she draws from the soil or from what she types on her computer? Sorry if that sounds like a narrow calibrations of authenticity, but there it is.

Carol Deppe's bio is about two mouse clicks away. I have no idea or interest in how she makes her living. I know Luther Burbank made a lot of his money from grants and book writing, so I'm not too sure if he would pass your sniff test either. There are some hobbyists on this message board that are worthy of respect because of the validity of their reasoning and practices -- and it has nothing to do with how they make their living.

My filter sometimes runs the other way -- professionals often cut corners and are focused on maximizing profits, as well as drumming up new business. There's always middle ground, and I like to think that I'm open to it.

Well, this has been a very fascinating thread to read :-) I did read up a little on Carol Deppe and her bio on her website. Here's what she posted about herself:

"Oregon freelance plant breeder Carol Deppe specializes in developing public-domain crops for organic growing conditions, sustainable agriculture, and human survival. Her writing includes The Resilient Gardener: Food Production and Self-reliance in Uncertain Times, Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties: The Gardener's and Farmer's Guide to Plant Breeding and Seed Saving, and Tao Te Ching: A Window to the Tao through the Words of Lao Tzu. Deppe, who has a Ph.D. in Biology from Harvard University, has been experimenting with crops and gardening in Corvallis, Oregon since 1979."

Personally, I lean towards harvestman's philosophy, but was raised by staunch Orange County conservatives, who were children and grandchildren of farmers - here in the USA and in Scotland with very libertarian views. So I suppose this colors my philosophy on my gardening practices. Harvestman takes care of a LOT more trees than I ever will, but I'm with him - we're the top of the food chain, and in order to provide fruit for myself, and the local food bank I'd like to donate my extra fruit to, I have to take pest management action. The idea posed by one of our list members to plant "more than you can eat" for me and most others in California is simply not practical. I only live on an acre and water is like liquid gold here. I don't relish the idea of planting trees for the squirrels rabbits and gophers - a rather ludicrous idea here - is simply not practical in any sense, monetarily nor in space. And, we are LOADED with predators here. In fact, I had to close off a small break in our fence to clear out the coyote den in the lower part of my yard (no kidding, they were hanging out down there). I can look out my back window at any given time and see Red Tailed Hawks, Red Shouldered Hawks, Sharp Shinned Hawks, Falcons, Barn Owls, Great Horned Owls, multiple snake varities including the poisonous kinds, and our regular coyote patrol every morning and evening. We also have a resident weasel (probably a Long-Tailed Weasel) and last night we listened to a Grey Fox calling out (rather creepy-sounding, sort of likea baby crying). Did that stop the hoards of ground squirrels, gophers or rabbits from decimating my fruit trees?? Nope. I have a Barn Owl house on my property, and encourage predators. When we moved into this house I had two citrus trees (we knew they were citrus trees because the previous owners were pretty sure that's what they planted) that were completely unrecognizeable due to the extensive damage inflicted by the rabbits and ground squirrels. I have an Australian Shepherd that tries to catch them, but they are wicked fast, and run out of the yard or down their holes before he can nab the little buggars. I don't let my housecat outside - they don't belong outside as they are the #1 killer of our lovely native songbirds, and here, they are also the #1 snack for coyotes - we cannot leave any small dogs or cats outside in our neighborhood due to our very higih coyote population. So, in order for me to enjoy my investment of my orchard, I have to undertake a pest management system. Here in California you will get slapped with a very hefty fine if you try to trap rabbits, ground squirrels or gophers, and release them anywhere else - they are considered pests. You must dispatch with them if you trap them.

Perhaps Carol Deppe may have a rather idealistic view of having a home orchard despite being well credentialed (not always a guarantee of becoming an expert in your field, we certainly all know that often experience is the best teacher, as mrclint has mentioned the very well-credentialed but educationless Luther Burbank) - don't know, haven't read her book but I will to always see both sides of an arguement - but for me, in order to get SOME fruit (got zero apples last year from my lovely little Anna - all stolen by either Roof Rats or Ground Squirrels), I will continue to trap and kill the rodents that my local predator population fail to keep in check. I try to use the most organic approaches first, but it that doesn't keep pests and predators away enough for me to have a decent harvest, I'm going to take actions to get my fruit harvest. I'm no expert, I have a degree in Economics and Nursing, not Ag or Biology, but I think I've got enough common sense and perspective to do what I believe is the right thing, with the least amount of harm to the environment, but still get what I want - a basket of apples, plums, peaches, oranges, etc. for my family, friends, neighbors and for others less fortunate than myself.

Patty S.

Interesting stuff, Patty. Topanga Canyon, where I was raised, has a similar roster of wildlife.

Mr. Clint, I think you may miss my point. It is only by practicing theories in an arena where there are serious consequences to failure that you can really test those theories- unless it's researched based in a way to prove the same thing.

You have theories about dealing with wildlife but you live in an area almost urban and you've no experience dealing with the problems you seem to think you've the solutions for. That doesn't mean your opinions aren't interesting and possibly useful but I don't feel you give much credit to experience based on how you've written here.

I believe Burbank was a breeder, not a commercial grower- if he was alive I doubt he'd be the first one I'd go to for ideas about pest control. I guess that would depend on the state of his orchard, though.

That said, Carol Deppe sounds fascinating, and I may well get around to reading something of what she's written.

I have Deppe's vegetable breeding book and it is truly outstanding. She is an original and that book is written based on years of experience (but, on the down side it is somewhat spotty since some things she didn't do much with, e.g. fruit breeding and there is then little on those topics). I don't quite see the point of the Resilient Gardener book but maybe I need to read it to find that out.

Scott

The Resilient Gardener is primarily about building gardening skills and practices that can be useful during bad times. I've discovered that it is not too high on this forum's reading list. :)

Harvestman, I prefer to keep things light and friendly, but I will lock horns with anybody, any time, and anywhere. When I first came to this forum I remember posting a lot about BYOC and getting summarily shot down post after post. Now, intensive planting and BYOC are pretty well received. I'm not giving myself credit for helping to turn the tide, I'm saying that tides can and will shift. I was chastised and not driven off then, and I'm not going to get chased off now. Sorry, but I get the feeling that some of my points might be bad for business.

This is one of the most open gardening forums around and I enjoy it very much. But, I'm not in the cool guy club and never will be. I think you spend a lot of your time here trying to drum up business. If it helps you to discredit me or someone else, then have at it. I'll be here continuing to chime in, and I won't gain one cent from it.

For what its worth, I'm yanking and cranking outstanding fresh fruit and produce 365 days a year, rain or shine, because I want to. That's not too shabby.

It's not that some of your points are bad for business, they're just bad.
I have no business that has to do with plants and the business I have is minor so I spend a lot of my time hunting and growing my food.
The things you suggest would not work around here. In other words your, "Experience is a Big Fat Liar".

You're cranking out food year round because of where you live. Want has little to do with it.

Mr. Clint, I'm not trying to shut you down or up or discourage your interaction here. I love controversy, although it's more enjoyable when it involves some give and take.

What does bother me a tiny bit is that you haven't conceded a single point when others contradict you with their direct experience. Your intro to this topic started with you suggesting that losing fruit to marauding animals was the result of a poor predator to prey balance.

You offered no evidence of this- even anecdotal (which was the basis of my original posting). Several have provided pretty good indications that this theory might be flawed and you never addressed them.

I resent you applying motives to my comments (you haven't a clue) and also I'm not too crazy about you politicizing the effort of posters here trying to discuss best ways to produce fruit in challenging environments. I don't believe this forum is about political camps of like-minded growers trying to push some agenda against another camp.

So far in 20ll I've received 2 hours of pruning work from a client who found me here- that's it. I don't even want more pruning customers! Help, I still haven't completed my commitments! If I'm doing this in an effort to boost business, I am one lousy business man. This would be the worst expenditure of time imaginable.

I don't know why you think this is some important debate where your credibility is on the line. I'm glad you are enjoying success as a grower and your love of fruit and gardening makes you a kindred spirit of mine as far as I'm concerned. I hope you continue to participate here, not just on the forum in general but to any postings I make in the future as well.

No wonder you're such a grouch, myk1. That's a tough life you've scratched out for yourself. The want comes from taking the time to dig the soil, plant seeds and trees. Produce does not just suddenly materialize because of where I live. I could have planted bougainvilleas. :)

Hman, I was being a little snippy. You're one of the good guys. I apologize for being unkind.

Folks, I'm not inclined to invent brand new ways of doing things. My own experience is simply in aligning with some tried and true methods. I mentioned an approach that is absolutely ancient and it was received as a fairy tale. I plant extra because it's timeless advice and it works. It gives you a buffer. You can either align with these age old concepts or keep fighting them. Dare I mention things like target crops? Feel free to try some advice based on experience that is older than all of us put together -- no need to give me any of the credit.

Experience can be a liar when the only experience you call upon is your own.

Mr. Clint, I've seen an acre of apple trees stripped of every apple by squirrels- literally tons of apples. Because squirrels reproduce so much faster than their predators on a boom year there's no way predators are going to put a dent in their population.

In the northeast you need several acres of fruit in production to feed the wildlife and yourself consistently. Most commercial growers here only worry about deer, I believe. I do work for a small commercial grower with under 10 acres under production next to mostly oak forest and he does curse his losses to the tree rats.

There's lots of ideas that might be good for some places but not for others, of course.

Mr. Clint, I'm not trying to chase you off, just try to make you understand your ability to crank out food comparatively easy for 365 days a year is a direct function of where you live, not from colossal cultural practices.

Yes there are some tried and true methods of agriculture that have been around for ages that continue to be practiced and help in the struggle - crop rotation, trashy cultivation, trap crops, etc. But keep in mind none of the "natural" methods was rarely ever the sole means for protecting crops under Midwest conditions.

Along with all that timeless advice, it was not uncommon for lead arsenate, Paris green, and other nasty things to be used to protect food crops.

All I'm saying is here growing food is more of a battle and aged agricultural principles, although they may help, won't take care of the problem.

Heck, last summer an orchard near here lost 100% of its apple crop due to fungus (black rot I believe). Seriously, I'm on their email list (as part of the Kansas Fruit Growers) and they sent an email indicating they canceled all sales.

It is more of a battle to grow food here. Farmers around here have experienced it. Dare I mention it, but even the "evil" chemical companies market their crop protectants accordingly (Warrior, Pounce, Ambush, Assail, Stinger, etc.) I'm sure you'll argue the chemical companies are just doing that to keep the war mentality going, but I disagree. They are appealing to experiences that are already there (i.e. losing a whole apple crop to fungus)

That growing food here is more challenging doesn't automatically make it unenjoyable. Perhaps an analogy would be rock climbing. It can be very difficult along the way, but can also be rewarding if successful.

I celebrate the various wisdoms expressed on this thread, and vote that it terminate on those last good notes.

Good Night, Good Friends.

:-)M

By the way, not a single person who participates in this forum is likely to fit in the category of someone who only calls on their own experience to try to solve problems. I think just about all of us come here to draw on other peoples experience and ideas as well as sharing our own.

I come here as much to learn as to teach and I've been well taught by many who participate.

The life I have is a lot happier than when I thought shoving some grape cuttings in the ground to save $10 was too much work. I'm a grouch because someone is trying to pass off pure BS as fact when it's doubtful they have ever seen a squirrel let alone lived off them.

Your "tried and true" method mentioned in this thread isn't. They're claimed to be tried and true because it sounds good and it sells to the green movement.

Sure, mention target crops, and if you don't mention some way of killing off what is targeting them I'll say you're doing nothing but breeding more of the problem. Been there, done that. In fact I'm there doing that now with my neighbor breeding bugs and disease causing me to spray on a schedule rather than IPM. According to you my fruit should be homefree with no spray because he's growing a target crop.

I second marknut's motion. Although I will bow to Mr. Clint's last word- he from the land of no summer rain.

Easter dinner for mom dad our 2 kids and 3 grand kids was prime rib(deer). the gravy was chopped gray squirl. onions and parsnip were over wintered. salad was bought. Once the kids learned they liked squirl gravy the problem went away. If I can find a dish of woodchuck they like I think my melons, squash and pumkins would fair better. Oh sisters son provided deer from one pruning apple 90 yards from house during a back yard picnic.