Hi JG, "Have you ever collected seeds from zinnias that have been frozen, and gotten good germination with those? Some of my flowers are bearing plenty of seeds, but they are wet and cold--just wondering if there is any viability." I have not done that, so I can't say anything on the subject that is based on experience. But I have a similar situation. Lots of interesting zinnias that are still standing after three successive killing freezes in the twenties. I, too, am interested in recovering any possible seeds from these very dead zinnias. I pulled all of my dead Whirligigs and discarded them in the trash. That garden looks almost ready for a Spring planting. I had already saved seeds and taken cuttings from the few breeder quality specimens. I noticed that their root systems were still alive. At some time in a future year I would probably tissue culture the roots of such "dead" zinnias. But I have yet to develop tissue culture proficiency with zinnias. That is something to work on this Winter. In my other zinnia garden, I plan to gather some of the more mature soggy dead blooms and pull out the seeds to see if any seem to contain "fat" embryos. Those seeds could be spread out on a newspaper and air dried for possible future use. But first I will remove some embryos, if any seem viable, from some of those frozen blooms and try to germinate them now. If the embryos germinate, they will become part of my indoor generation 4 for this year, and that would suggest that the dried versions might be good to plant next year. If the "frozen" embryos don't germinate, I won't waste time drying frozen green seeds. If they do germinate, then drying the frozen green seeds could be worthwhile. "... but have never planted those that remain both wet and have gone through a frost." Me either. This could be a good thing, with an opportunity to try some zinnia experiments that we haven't done before. ZM

Yes when I read the posts I was like wow thats got me coming and going :( rlv4, Oh I have the cooked lettuce recipes for you. 1. First off any soup you cook, lettuce will add a flavor layer that hands down can't be met. Add in bowl, cover and let sit 5 minutes. Many Kale soups, do a search. They are great. 2.Top Roman any flavor but my family likes the oriental the best. Boil 2 cups of water and add noodles for 1 minute Add flavor pack and 2 cups of washed greens ( I wash them in warm water). Cook for 2 more minutes. You are just wilting the greens My family likes Nappa Cabbage and Arugula (Rocket) the best in this dish 3.Any rice You can use a box rice. 1 cup shredded and washed. I like to make homemade rice. Spanish rice ( Allrecipes) or beef and lettuce fried rice (Cooking with the Single Guy). 3.The best site I go to for veggie recipes is Food Network UK. I looked today for cooked lettuce recipes and they had a few. They have all the good veggie recipes. Look at the smoothies, I have made all 10 and they are great. Lander

In a effort to be clear I have rewritten my post about Dr Ingrams. I have used contemporary language to the best of my ability. If there are still questions of what I am saying I will attempt to try again... Im tired of people messing with Dr Elaine R. Ingrams. Dr Ingrams be working hard, real hard. Dr Ingrams got courage and character just like Superman. Dr Ingrams, that girl know about her compost tea (dirt too!), she in the front row (snap) sitting on the corner. Dr Ingrams was telling people to geek up their compost tea. Somebody found out she was doing wrong and put it in the funny papers. You know everybody seen that! Dr Ingrams jumped up and told everybody they were right with the quickness. She covered that butt and dont care what nobody say behind her back. People be talking about they be calling Dr Ingrams all the time. I bet they be calling her when she get off work too, and she talk to them anyway (hmmph). I am NOT having no talking about Dr Elaine R. Ingrams behind her back just so you can stay stuck on stupid. Dr Ingrams is a real nice lady and helps everybody, even if they talk funny to her. Dr Ingrams take them just like they come, she dont pick and choose. If you wants to talk about somebody with me you best be picking somebody else. If not, you can talk to the hand Blutranes

On the issue of how to grow a young own root rose We plant out young roses actually much smaller than what many of you buy in both spring and in fall. We produce these rooted cuttings in our greenhouse and we do this for our trials not for commercial sales. When you receive the plant pop it out of the container and make sure that the roots are filling the container to the point the roots are dense enough to hold all the soil in place. If not I do not think you are getting what you paid for. I insist on this principle for all plants I buy, not just roses. To be successful what you need to be buying is a well established root system ready to develop a good plant. 2 ) What a young plant needs is good fairly loose (well worked) soil and adequate nutrition and regular water. These young plants have no tolerance for drought (although many roses once established can be quite drought tolerant). So keep this plant moist for the first year. If it does not rain then make sure you water it. 3) My preference for fertilizer is a slow release formula that can be incorporated into the soil at planting. There are formulas that last 4 months or the growing season. That is not to say that other ideas such as compost or a liquid feed will not work - they will but you need to check regularly to make sure the fertilizer is at the right strength. The plant should grow rapidly the first season if all of this is in balance. The reason for pruning a young own root rose is to form a good base with strong stems for future development. Doing this changes the plant from having thin, whippy canes to 3 to 4 strong stems after a season of growing. When your plant arrives if the canes are more than 8 inches tall cut them back to 4-5 inches. If you leave them long then these canes will continue to grow upward and you will end up with those skinny tall plants with a few buds on the top. After planting this pruned plant as it begins to grow it should be vigorous and adding cane caliper. When it reaches about 2 to 2.5 feet give it another light pruning again taking off probably about 4-5 inches. The point of this whole exercise is to force the plant to make new shoots low on the plant which might also be some basal shoots. If the basal shoots start out-growing the rest of the plant come in and cut them back to a height equal or a little lower than the rest of the plant. These should then begin to branch out. This should do it for the first year of growth. Prune the plant again late winter/spring to about 2-3 feet and it should do well in the second year. if you see any basal canes that are too strong prune as outlined above. Enjoy the flowers this season and it should be well on its way to being a good rose. I have seen reference to "octopus plants". Two things can be going on here - not pruning the plant so these extremely long thin canes cannot support their weight so they fall over and begin to grow on the ground. Prune these plants hard and start again as outlined above. The other thing I have seen is that in some roses top pruning forces lateral growth which can also look like a low growing rose. If this happens stop pruning on top and do all the pruning on the side growth and this should correct the problem. My observation is that HTs require more pruning and care to make a good, well branched rose, they just are slower to push basal and side branches. I generally think shrubs and floribundas are more free branching. That is not to say I think HTs don't make good own root roses because I actually think many of them work well. I think there may be more care needed in forming the plant when it is young. Also, occasionally I see images of own root roses that have not thrived on this website. Alive, but not really growing well. I have had this happen in my private garden too. I always attribute it to not getting enough moisture to the plant when it is young. I have found that it is hard to get that rose to turn around and really start growing well in that same season. But what I have done is the following spring I have pruned the rose hard and then put extra attention on fertility and water for the next season and these roses have ended up being really beautiful shrubs. Other general comments on this thread: Jasminerose I think that it is not just climate but also soil and other conditions. A rose planted into heavy clay and another in sand will give totally different result in the dessert even if they are just a few miles away. There is no perfect way to test roses for all the many factors so as someone said above yousometime just need to see what does well for you in your particular climate. optuniamc is there something less valid about Newflora doing the Kordes trialing own root in the USA than Kordes doing it in Germany? Also read my post again we start all roses as budded and then we create own root if it looks interesting. We trial far more cultivars than we will ever introduce in N. America. Something wrong with that? But I agree with you that in your climate a small band pot is going to be challenged to get large enough to make it in the winter which I think is why so many start their own root roses in containers.. Roses need to build a good carbohydrate reserve in the roots to make cold climates and a very young plant probably cannot grow as fast as it needs in a short summer. I think if you bought an older own root plant (as big as the budded roses you buy) you would see quite a different result. Market expectations and economics drive a lot of choices about how roses are grown. Not a discussion I want to get onto on this forum. Kordes does trial and grow own root, but not to the extent we do it at Newflora. Kordes does visit the own root trials in N. America They do still do traditional budding for most sales. As I said even in Europe there is a trend toward more own root production. One last comment to optuniamc- most rose breeders are not getting rich. A few roses like Knockout come along and a breeder does very well, but for the most part it is long, hard work. If you knew how little a breeder gets of the retail price you pay for a rose you might lower your expectations just a bit. Patty - Crazy Love will be on the market for spring 2017 - Palatine has it and there is some own root production, but limited for 2017. How great to bring up Sienna Vigorosa. This is one that is not great on its own roots so it has largely stopped being produced. We did have one Canadian rose grower request the right to bud it. So in a couple of years it should be in the market. Your right it is beautiful.