I think most of the Kordes sold in Lowes and HD are grafted. I'm not sure on what. Own root roses do take longer to get going, but there are advantages. If the rose dies back, they can regrow from the roots. They are also easier to plant and you don't have to worry about root stock suckers.

Grow back to what, their previous puny size? Is that an accomplishment.?

When I had grafted roses not one ever had a rootstock sucker.

So you have to dig a bigger hole, are we getting that lazy as Americans?

When I grew grafted roses, I had problems with multiple diseases and many insect pests. 10% of my roses would have to be replaced after a hard winter. Of course spraying was absolutely mandatory.

I doubt I'd still be growing roses if I had not discovered own-roots, AND figured out how to grow them organically, with no chemical fertilizer and no sprays of any kind.

I was recently asked what I do about powdery mildew and spider mites and my response was "Don't have em. Have never had 'em in this organic garden".

Peter Kukielski says in his book Roses Without Chemicals: "Own-root roses take a little more time to build up and become established than grafted roses, but they are always true to their variety, ardmore likely to survive hard winters and temperature fluctuations, and tend to be healthier garden plants less prone to pathogens. I prefer own-root roses to grafted plants."

That sums up my experience too.

OK, them's fighting words.

Opunt., not all soils are equal. A bigger hole? Go take your shovel to Hawaii. A bigger hole, I have some red clay with a few remnant chert knobs that breaks shovel handles (even the fiberglass shovel handles.) And you might want to take a six foot long pry bar to move boulders out of the ground that some of us garden in.

Rootstock? Not all of us garden in playa lake beds where your favored roses are/were grown to two year size.

One more time: Dr. Huey grows best in slightly alkaline soils.

Dr. Huey grows better in alkaline soils, but grafted roses also come on multiflora, and canina, and other things.

Of course there are exceptions to everything, and rules change in the reaches, however, here grafted roses do much, much better than own-root because the own-roots don't have the vigor to regrow from winterkill. Tip hardy roses are fine own-root (except when they try to take over the world) but anything that dies back has to be grafted. So many of us in the frozen north try to explain to newbies that roses come (grafted) from Canada. If you have to make a choice between varieties that look similar, you pick the one carried by Palatine. Which gets me nowhere because I don't have acidic soil.

I think you'd be happier if you switched to grafted roses, I on the other hand am very happy with my own-root roses. Perhaps we own-rooters have to be more patient where grafters have to be better diggers, An over-simplification, I know.

Jane

Dr. Huey will not survive in my soil. The roses either go own root or they die.

Multiflora root stock does not always fair much better. My soil is ph 6.7 we have a sub soil that is slow to drain. Top soil is constantly improved with organics and all of my beds are slopped to aid in drainage. I just dug up a cherished rose that I've had around ten years. It had gone own root but in my moist environment. The rotting old root stock had infected the portion coming off the graft. Had I remembered that this rose was grafted I could have saved it. I could have dug it up cut off the multiflora and graft area then replanted. This has worked for me before. I need own root roses.

I will admit that I believe I'm now growing a few that seem as if they need to be grafted. Those roses are doing poorly on their own roots after three years in the ground. I'm getting to old to be experimenting with what will grow own root and what won't.

I would like to thank you for the reminder. Perhaps I should be satisfied to grow what I know works here. In a way I forgot that not all roses will grow own root. I was assuming that because they were being sold own root they would grow well that way. Some are spectacular. Others have been a disaster.

It depends, like everything, on local conditions - soil, weather, etc.It also depends on the ROSE - some roses were not hybridized to grow on their own roots, and are very weak grown that way. I live in a warm climate with clay based loam soil, the product of 111 years of gardening. Lucky. Most of my roses are old roses, like teas and chinas, which I think were hybridized before rose producers started grafting everything. Almost all of them are on their own roots, and they thrive and are very vigorous (sometimes too vigorous).

So, I do not think this should be a debate - neither grafted nor own root is "better" in all circumstances. Personally, I would never purchase a grafted rose, because I have had enough trouble dealing with suckers on the roses which were in my garden before I got here.

Jackie

The age old discussion. For the record Kordes primarily uses Canina as the rootstock - one I don't think is used at all in USA nurseries which are producing roses- almost everything in USA is on Dr. Huey. In Canada there is multiflora and some Canina rootstock used. We start on Kordes in our fields on Canina when the budwood is sent from Germany. When we select new varieties we then test them for several years as own root roses. We do not license for own root production if the rose does not perform as well or better on its own roots.

I would agree that not all roses perform as well on own roots - you need to evaluate each variety.

opuntimac I think you may be confusing the fact that budded roses are field grown for 2 years and thus are big established plants. About 95% of the Kordes that have been purchased at Lowes and Home Depot that you buy in 2 or 3 gallon pots are own root roses that are field grown for a year. Nice big healthy plants often confused as being budded plants. On the other hand many of those roses bought mail order are own root roses that are quite young and rooted and then placed in one quart containers. They are much younger and smaller when sold to gardeners and take much longer to establish and I think need more skill by the gardener to be established in gardens. I personally think that there is not enough instructions on how to care for these given when they are sold. They need to be pruned and shaped the first year of growing and few gardeners do this. If they were in the field being grown we would be cutting them back quite a few times to get the canes breaking and shaping the plants to have at least 3-4 strong central canes. For this reason many of these plants are too tall or have few canes. I think if you buy these mail order roses you should be popping these out of the containers and looking to make sure they have fully developed strong root systems because this is what matters - not buds on the canes.

opuntimac the genetics whether budded or grown own root are the same as far as disease resistance. The difference of whether it is good as an own root is usually vigor (too little and sometimes too much) not whether it will be disease resistant or cold hardy.

I do not think there is a good answer as to which is better own root or budded. For many years breeders selected there roses on budded stock and did not know if they were good own root roses. Now I think many look at own root roses for selection of varieties to introduce and will select roses that work well in this system. There are some economic advantages to growing own root roses as labor is getting more expensive and there are fewer skilled budders available to the industry.

For the gardener own root have a distinct advantage in cold climates where roots can regenerate true to the variety. Also we can avoid the problems of virus which is so prevalent in the budded roses in the USA. Grafted roses are good too, but in the USA there should be more rootstocks to chose from so that stocks can be chosen to work for specific climates. This does not happen because almost all roses are grown in the hot climates of California and Arizona and Dr. Huey is what works well for the rose producers.

I would recommend you buy one of these field grown own root roses to compare against the budded roses before you say own root roses do not work. That way you will be comparing apples to apples.

Great points chris. I bought budded plants for the first time this spring, and they are about on par with bands or young own roots. They were fun to watch sprout though!

opuntiamic, In my experience, I've had grafted roses die in particularly bad winters. This is opposite to what mad gallica says because I am in zone 7 and don't do any winter protection (beyond what leaves I can scrounge up) and we also don't get snow cover. The two years where we had very cold temps, including temps below 0, which is 10 degrees below my cold hardiness zone, I lost many grafted roses. I also lost all the growth above ground on my mature tea roses. I'm talking 6-8 feet of growth, all gone, down to the root ball. But, they sprung back. It took a year, but they were almost to full size. So yes, own root does have advantages. Oh, and I now plant all my grafted roses buried at least 2 inches in the ground. Zone 7 rules be damned.

Chris, you have confirmed that Kordes roses are trialed in Germany on a rootstock, primarily Canina as you say.

Why are Kordes roses NOT being trialed on their own roots in Germany, or are they?

Since growing roses on their own roots has so many desirable results, why go the extra step and graft them? Do roses grow so differently in Germany that they must be grafted?

Wouldn't it be possible for Kordes to trial their roses both on rootstocks and on their own roots to determine which is best for its customers in the USA?

I read recently that roses are a $400,000,000.00 industry in the USA. I believe this figure is just for plant stock sold. Adding fertilizers, sprays, tools, etc., and who knows where the total figure ends, perhaps over a billion dollars?

The rose breeders get their share of this huge chunk of change. Supplying the rose gardener with more cultural information per variety would be enormously helpful to us. It would work to the best interest of the industry in the long run.

I'm growing mainly own root because I want my OGRs to live 100 years. When I left Alaska, my over 30 year survivors were own root, mainly from Heirloom. I'm hoping any grafted roses I get go own root, so I am planting the graft deep. (Munstead Wood, Florentina and Blarii #2 I hope you know I'm talking to you).

Chris I hope it does not hurt to ask this. Will Crazy Love or Siena Vigorosa (Maxi Vita) become available as own roots. Siena Vigorosa was the most beautiful blooming rose. That is the rose I lost this year. It was my most coveted and looked at rose. I'm planing on getting them both thru Palatine. For me this means in eight to ten years they will die. In order to keep this from happening I either need to own root them myself. The other option is to wait maybe 5 years dig them up and hope that they have grown their own roots. Cut off the root stock and replant.

Chris, I don't mean to get off the subject but I'd appreciate further instruction on best practices to shape first year plants as you mentioned above. I have always been taught to, for the most part, leave roses alone their first year. However, some roses for me - such as Summer Romance - are so vigorous that they need something more. Any online resources or suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated!

YES!!! I second Dave's request for more info on shaping plants Chris.

My guess is they don't trial the roses own-root in Germany for the same reason I don't grow own-root modern roses. They don't want to grow. A cane hardy roses can afford to take several years to get up to size. A dieback rose has to do it all in one summer, and they don't get very far with short, cool summers.

Some roses are vigorous on their own roots. It depends on the rose. Kim Rupert (roseseek) said that an Iceberg rose grafted on Dr. Huey at Huntington Gardens wasn't as large or full as the own root Icebergs in the same bed. They used to joke that Dr. Huey acted as "dwarfing rootstalk". He also said that some roses are better grafted. Source (scroll down for post): Is this true?

Your "octopus arms" are more the result of letting a rose loose where the season is warmer, longer with more brilliant sun compared to what the climate is where it was originally selected. It is precisely the long experienced issue with Austin roses. What was originally described in the early Austin catalog as a "mannerly five foot bush" (Graham Thomas) became a fifteen foot climber when let loose in Southern California. Some roses do not grow well own root and must be budded/grafted to flourish. Others grow fabulously own root and require no "artificial roots" to develop "vigor". Some (root stocks as well as "hybrids") do better on alkaline type soils than more acidic and vice versa. It all depends upon the genetics of the rose and how well suited it is for the specific conditions under which you are attempting to grow it.

"When we select new varieties we then test them for several years as own root roses."

Reread Chris's first paragraph. I know some things get over looked.

That said I would like instruction as well on 1st year Own-roots shaping.

Also I would like to say I second what everyone else has pretty much said. It depends on the rose and the climate. Most HT are to weak to grow on there own-roots, Heirloom misleads on this I think, but since switching. I prefer everything on on own-roots. The bush shape is prettier, they are easier to grow, to me, and if you get the right ones for your climate are much better, long lived healthier plants.

You obviously prefer grafted so that's what you should get. No one should be bashing anyone's choice and everyone has different soil, as Anne said. When I dig a hole, sometimes I feel I should be using a pickaxe in my hard clay.

Where they are tested own root makes a tremendous difference. If the testing is in Oregon, Washington, perhaps the midwest or even Illinois, they are vastly different from what they are going to be in the "land of endless summer". Even moving from the coast here in California to the hot, inland valleys makes worlds of difference.

After 10 years of unsuccessfully trying to remove Dr. Huey from my yard, I vowed to only grow own root. Maybe some roses don't do as well own root, but why would I want those? There are many, many roses to choose from, and old roses wouldn't be around if they couldn't grow own root. So far I have not yet found a rose that I wish I grew grafted, but my only head-to-head comparison has been Abraham Darby, which has grown better own root for me. As with anything roses, YMMV. I don't grow moon cactus either, but to each his own. Every garden and gardener is different.

OK. Here is my observation from MY garden. Summers are hot and humid and winters are a wild fluctuation of 40's/50's down to 0/10's. I grow roses own root and grafted on to 3 different root stocks (Dr. Huey, Multiflora and Fortuniana). All of my grafted roses are planted with the bud union at ground level. Several winters I have had the freeze line in the soil go down to over 24". We had upside down stalactites all over the yard.

Own root---Half of my mini's/ miniflora's are own root grown in 7 1/2 and 10 gal. nursery pots. They do very well and grow quickly. All of my OGR's are own root in well prepared soil. It has taken 4 years for most of them to come to full maturity but I am very happy with their growth and production. All 5 Knock Out's are own root. Good growth and production. They will probably take at least 3 to 5 years to get really big and bushy. So far I'm happy with what they are doing. I have 2 Kords HT's own root. They are not doing to bad. 2nd year for one and the other was a huge, well rooted bush to start off with. Once you get use to their growth habits, they can turn into very nice bush's. It will probably take at least 5 years for them to get to the size I really want. My Rugosa's are doing great in their well prepared soil area's (heavy on the sand). I also have about 10 own root roses up at the church garden I take care of. They do very well considering they only get attention about once a week.

Multiflora budded---This root stock really isn't happy with our hot, humid summers. It pretty much shuts down when the heat kicks in. During the spring and fall when the evening temps get down to the lower 60's upper 50's and the soil cools off a little, it works great. But I want to see roses during the summer. I will be replacing all of my multiflora with Fortuniana grown rose's of the same varieties.

Dr. Huey---- This root stock seems to like my garden and my soil. Most of my Austin's and several HT's are on the good DR. Everything grow very well and it doesn't give me any problems. Most of the roses up at the church garden and all of the roses at the garden where I work are on Dr. Huey. Most of the roses are happy and I'm happy with what they do.

Fortuniana---This is the root stock I am most familiar with. Having grown roses in Central and S.E. FL. since the mid 1970's to 2008, you get to know this root stock very well. I was told by several "experts" that I couldn't grow roses on Fortuniana root stock up here on the east side of the Smokies because it was too cold. I was just bull headed enough to bring several bush's along with me when I moved to see just what happened. They were planted in early September and faced a cold winter right away. Several night's in the low teens with a strong wind blowing. I winter protected with an 18" layer of leafs. I figured, "oh well, we'll see if they are dead come spring." To my surprise, they not only survived but went crazy that that spring. ALMOST all the new roses that enter my garden now are on Fortuniana root stock. It loves the summer heat and if properly shut down in the fall, this root stock can survive some nasty cold weather. During the "Polar Vortex" winters we had two years in a row, I lost several bush's as the Sion (the rose bush itself) froze and died but the root stock was still very much alive. Just to make sure, I cut a dead bush off just below the graft and sure enough, it suckered for me that spring. I'm not saying Fortuniana will survive in the upper mid west or the north east. This is my observation in MY garden.

Fortuniana is a very vigorous, fast growing root stock that produces a bigger, healthier bush with more and in a lot of cases, larger blooms. Roses that seem to have a hard time growing own root and budded on other root stocks, usually grow like crazy on Fortuniana. Royal Amethyst and Hot Cocoa come to mind right away.

To be honest, I would love to grow some roses on other root stocks just to see how they would do in my garden. But that is just me. I'll give just about anything a shot to see how well it grows.

The biggest thing in this conversation is, grow the rose that you want to grow, the way you are happy growing it (own root or using a under stock). Because when push comes to shove, you are the one that needs to be happy with your roses. Not someone half way across the world. But it's still fun seeing how other folks in other area's grow their roses.

Right on, Ken. I appreciate your detailed discussion and fairness, rather than getting on a soapbox. You've convinced me to try fortuniana--just gotta find the space because things are big enough already around here. I just want better repeat bloom on a few roses, and larger blooms are fine with me, too. Diane

Ken, you need to write a book wth your rose knowledge. Thanks for your exceptionally informative response. I am inspired by your 'out of the box' thinking. I've gotten some revolutionary ideas from you, like trying some roses on fortuniana, even in my zone 5/6 W. PA garden . They will be heavily winterized which I don't mind doing at all. Who knows what will happen? What have I got to lose? I'll never know if I don't try.

All I want is roses that grow vigorously and bloom lavishly no matter what they are growing on: own root, grafted on 'what so ever', or growing on the back of a snapping turtle! I'm willing to do all the necessary management requirements growing roses requires, but not willing to put out all the intense effort and ending up with puny wimps that limp along.

My reason for posting the original question was not to stir up controversy, but just to obtain knowledge on how to grow roses that are a joy not a disappointment.

Some of the posters' responses were not at all edifying.

I reread the posts and everyone seems to respectfully express their well-informed opinion. I don't see the controversy here.

Chris, I didn't make a comment about climate, but I think someone else did. I said it depends on the rose (variety). Thank you. I always appreciate your responses. I'm giving four new Kordes roses a try this fall.

Thank you all for your responses. It was an interesting discussion. Enjoy growing roses :-)

Thank you, Chris! I appreciate your input a lot!

Chris, Thanks for your info on growing own-root roses, that really helps me a lot. I was under the impression that they should not be pruned the first year. I cannot remember where I heard or read this. I really enjoy all your posts.

Jane

Hey Ken, if you are getting rid of any plants on multiflora, I'll take them :)

Chris, you still have not answered my question...Why doesn't Kordes trial their roses on their own roots in Germany?

He did answer that question. Twice actually. Reread his last post. Or here I'll help you out and copy it for you. I'm sorry you didn't see it. Here it is.

"optuniamc is there something less valid about Newflora doing the Kordes trialing own root in the USA than Kordes doing it in Germany? Also read my post again we start all roses as budded and then we create own root if it looks interesting. We trial far more cultivars than we will ever introduce in N. America. Something wrong with that? But I agree with you that in your climate a small band pot is going to be challenged to get large enough to make it in the winter which I think is why so many start their own root roses in containers.. Roses need to build a good carbohydrate reserve in the roots to make cold climates and a very young plant probably cannot grow as fast as it needs in a short summer. I think if you bought an older own root plant (as big as the budded roses you buy) you would see quite a different result."

"Market expectations and economics drive a lot of choices about how roses are grown. Not a discussion I want to get onto on this forum. Kordes does trial and grow own root, but not to the extent we do it at Newflora. Kordes does visit the own root trials in N. America They do still do traditional budding for most sales. As I said even in Europe there is a trend toward more own root production.
One last comment to optuniamc- most rose breeders are not getting rich. A few roses like Knockout come along and a breeder does very well, but for the most part it is long, hard work. If you knew how little a breeder gets of the retail price you pay for a rose you might lower your expectations just a bit."

I'm inarguably in a cold zone, and I would say that cane hardy (or ultra vigorous) roses would be best own-root barring suckering problems with things such as gallicas.

The soil is great here; Huey's limiting factor is cold. All of my Huey plants are essentially HT/FL and planted deep. There are a couple Austins on Huey as well.

I have own root Austins, the rugosa Therese Bugnet, Harison's Yellow, and a road side gallica I've collected that looks like Apothecary's Rose.

Multiflora grows rampantly in the wild here, and is very hardy. However; feral plants are seen readily infected with RRD. Makes my stomach hurt. I wish to obtain roses on Multiflora because I feel they would be successful here.

All about appropriate variety and that ever magical location, location, Location!

Steven

As Chris says own root roses are becoming more available here, but generally in Germany people tend to be quite traditional. It is not easy to find own root garden roses (although you see lots of rooted cuttings for some mini roses or varieties like the fairy or seafoam). Even ramblers or old garden roses that do perfectly fine on their own roots commonly come grafted, at least around here. Grafting is just the way things have traditionally been done so that is what people expect.

The main advantage to growing on rootstock, I think, is for the large scale commercial grower. They can have a large number of rootstocks growing over several years, and then decide later which variety they want to graft on. This gives them a lot more flexibility, and allows them to more quickly adjust. If they need more of a particular kind of rose, for example, it will only take them 2 years instead of 4 or 5. Grafting gives them a head start if they already have the rootstock on hand. If they only grew everything own-root, they would have to maintain a huge volume to ensure they could keep all those varieties in stock. While it is true that there are many varieties that were not bred to do well on their own roots, many other common varieties do just fine.

Use of rootstocks also allow the breeding process for new rose varieties to progress faster. No surprise then that roses usually are not bred to necessarily do well on their own roots.