Hi JG and everyone,

"It's hard to navigate through the garden with 4 and 5 foot plants that are sprawled out everywhere."

I have the same problem. I left 3-foot wide paths in the main zinnia garden pictured in the first message of this thread. When the side branches started blooming, they reached out and closed up those paths. In my Whirligig garden I tried something new. I put in five 4-foot wide beds separated by 6-foot wide paths. Each 4-foot bed contains 4 rows of zinnias that are 16-inches apart. By the time the zinnias in the border rows reach out a foot, the bed will have expanded to 6 feet wide and path will have shrunk to 4 feet wide -- still room enough for a wheelbarrow, wheeled tractor seat, or wheeled sprayer. I plan to do all of my zinnia beds like that next year. It seems a little wasteful to allocate more space to the paths than to the beds themselves, but I am really liking the easy access in my Whirligig garden.

"I've got the Profusions growing now...sure wish I had some tetraploid Zinnia violaceae! "

If you have different colors of Profusions, cross them with each other. I don't think anyone has made their own F1 hybrid Profusions. Considering all the different Profusions, Zaharas, and Pinwheels, there are a lot of different Marylandica x Marylandica crosses that you can make. And you could self those F1s or intercross the F1s to try to get some recombinations. I got the impression somewhere that recombinations in Marylandicas are hard to do. But I don't know exactly what they meant by that. Either the F1s are sterile or the F1s kind of "breed true" when selfed. Or something weird happens in the recombinations. The chromosomes in the Marylandicas are kind of a mess.

Those Z. marylandica x tetra Z. violacea hybrids could be fascinating. I wonder if they would be resistant to Powdery Mildew. And if you could propagate them from cuttings easily;. The butterflies might be afraid of them.

I got a second-stage toothy zinnia in my Whirligig patch. I don't have a picture of it yet, but it is about as toothy as this recent toothy-from-toothies specimen, which I consider to be "second-stage toothy".

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I have never gotten a second-stage toothy Whirligig until now. I'll try to get a picture of it. I suspect that bees crossed two first stage toothies in the Whirligig seed production field. This kind of confirms in my mind that Whirligigs are the primary source of toothy zinnias.

We are supposed to get some rain Thursday, so I will be trying to finish my main patch zinnia seed-saving tomorrow.

ZM

ZM,

I like your plan of spacing zinnias. I may try the same next year. We usually don't have a rainy August, so in the past I haven't had problems getting through the rows.
This year I know I ruined some plants as I tried to move through the garden.

I've collected seeds from my Profusions several years in a row now, but I don't know if the offspring are the results of hybrization between plants. I've seen no unusual colors thus far! So here, the F1's aren't sterile, at least when selfed..

I think I will try and cross the Profusions with State Fairs next year. I'll grow them up together, and maybe even if I am not successful in crossing them manually, the garden creatures will be.

I really like that toothy purple flower. It's so full and also a good color. You are making so much progress in your breeding programs..I know I've said this before, but you are doing a great job.I love looking at the results!

I am not going to be online the next few days much as I am undergoing treatment for a detached retina :-(.. but look forward to everyone's posts..

JG

Hi JG,

I hope the detached retina treatment goes well. We will understand you taking it easy for a while, and following the doctor's orders.

ZM

Hi everyone,

I finally got a picture of that "second stage toothy Whirligig" yesterday, and here it is:

{{gwi:16179}}
That is the first time I got a zinnia with that much toothiness right out of a seed packet. That was an old seed packet of Whirligigs that came from Stokes Seeds several years ago. The country of origin was Tanzania and it was packaged in Canada. I also got this "first stage" uprolled specimen.

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And this next picture is my first "second stage" uprolled specimen. It also came right out of that packet of old Whirligig seeds from Stokes.

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If I just had a narrow petaled zinnia in bloom now, I would cross them, for an attempt at my own "extreme rolled". For the time being I will have to settle for selfing this one to hopefully get some seeds from it. We got some rain yesterday and last night. And it is pleasantly cooler now. I am doing some of my Fall cleanup tasks.

ZM

Zenman (and Jackie and the rest). I have always followed these threads with interest though not posted much. Just curious if you have any good Scabiosa types lately? Particularly in a good red?....

Hi WN,

I am glad you posted. I don't have a lot of scabiosa types in my fall crop, and this one is only sort of red and sort of scabious. It doesn't look scabious at first glance, but it is actually scabious.

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It has a nine spotted cucumber beetle hiding in it. They are a pest for zinnias. They don't eat a lot, but they will eat small holes in most any part of a zinnia, including leaves and flower petals. The damage they due is mainly cosmetic, but I hand pick them when it is handy. This is a somewhat more true-to-type scabious recombinant, though it is not red.

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Here a couple of budding scabious flowers, on the same plant.

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I'm not sure what I would call that color. I took all these pictures this evening, and the light was non too good. Don't hesitate to post.

ZM

ZM,

Things are good now...the surgery is behind me! Your scabiosa hybrids look good...but just changed enough from the typical scabiosas to make them more interesting. The last ones, in particular, almost look like chrysanthemums!

I also liked that macro photo you showed a while back.. Those close-ups are fascinating. In zinnias, the details are really fun to see.

One of my X-roll descendents has white-backed flowers, and in the photo below, you can see how white-backed petals add to the interest of a flower.
{{gwi:16184}}

That flower opened up further to make a somewhat loosely rolled appearance. With red and white, the flower could be especially pretty.

The orange X-roll continues to flower. One advantage of this particular plant is that the flowers take a long time to fully open, and are also somewhat long-lived.
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I still have lots of flowers in the garden, and no mildew. But the seeds are not forming so much now...I don't know if the cooler temperatures may be resulting in poor pollen development and setting of seeds...but it always starts happening at this time of the year.

JG

Hi JG,

I am so glad you are back. Those two pictures are fantastic. The white-backed petals trait is loaded with potential, and you have shown some of it here. I will be on the lookout for it in my zinnia beds, and will give it priority treatment when it appears.

That orange X-roll is sensational. Not just the unique flower form, but the whole bushy plant. And the long-lived flowers are aging so well. Long flower life is another valuable trait to be sought after in zinnias. I hope so much that we can obtain stable strains of X-roll zinnias. You have already made a lot of progress in that direction. Some of my Whirligigs are good at teasing me that they will be extreme rolls, like this recent bloom.

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It will unroll to present a rather conventional narrow petaled zinnia. But I remain vigilant for some uprolled specimens that I can use as breeders to inter-cross. I hope to finish the season with the start of a seed stock for a larger growout of extreme roll candidates next Spring.

I also hope to increase my seed stock of toothy zinnias to make progress in developing that strain. I like the white teeth effect of this specimen.

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I need to cross toothies with different zinnia colors, to get a complete color range in the toothies through recombinations. And I would like to get some "extreme" toothies.

"I still have lots of flowers in the garden, and no mildew."

Same here. Although I have seen traces of a foliage disease, and I have lost a few zinnias to stem rot. I think I will add some Physan 20 to a foliar feed. We have some very cool nighttime temperatures predicted for this weekend, so the tendency for mildew will increase.

"But the seeds are not forming so much now...I don't know if the cooler temperatures may be resulting in poor pollen development and setting of seeds"

Seed set probably is slowed by lower temperatures. (Grin, maybe our zinnias need some powdery mildew to scare them into setting some seeds.) I have noticed fewer bees and fewer butterflies. So insect pollination may have decreased. I am doing some pollination to compensate for that. I would like to get some seeds from my Fall crop before a killing freeze. More later. I am excited about the possibilities next year in the zinnia patch. You have obtained some amazing results this year, and they encourage and inspire me.

ZM

ZM,

Your toothy zinnias are looking good. That last one with the frosted tips is very nice. I can imagine how great a whole range of colors in the toothed zinnias would look...especially with the frosted tips!

It seems that many of the whirligigs do start out with the tightly rolled petals...they always catch my eye in the garden. You may be right in that is where that particular extreme trait started.

I agree with you in looking forward to next year. I am still saving seeds from my "mixed batch" zinnias, because you just never know what unimaginable trait may show up! Watching those flowers start to bloom at the beginning of each season is something I really anticipate! For the most part, I just let them cross randomly.

My main garden this coming year will include the F1s of zinnias whose phenotypes were X-roll this year as well as F2s whose P1 generation were X-roll phenotypes in 2011. I have over a gallon of those seeds so it will be interesting to see what happens. And growing them in close proximity doesn't hurt to bring out the trait from random crosses.

I want to try for a line of tubular zinnias, too, so I think planting a patch of Burpeana Giants might be the route to go...I will be planting other cactus types as well, along with the Benarys, whose pure colors I like so much (not only that, but I expect they have been inbred quite a bit, so might lead to expression of some interesting traits). And, although I liked the scabious hybrids I got this year, I am going to plant more of the Candy Mix. Also, will plant the State Fairs and Profusions together as mentioned previously. And, the whirligigs..they are a crazy bunch with lots of surprises!
The 'Big Red' zinnia that Park introduced a few years back has crossed in with other zinnias in the garden, and now I have these large red zinnias like them, perhaps a little fuller, but with the silky, white-backed petals. There are only two plants in the garden this year like that, and I am hoping the seeds will give me more of the same next year, but I don't know...

I look forward to seeing your zinnias just as much as my own! It is fun to compare and contrast. I have missed more Shaggy Dogs from you this year, as well as the aster-type flowers you have shown in the past.

I have a number of plants flowering for the first time now since the rains started. Below is another X-roll plant. The immature flowers start out a salmon color, then as they become older, they become more pink, almost a fuschia.

{{gwi:16188}}

JG

Hi JG,

" I have over a gallon of those seeds... "

I assume that is a gallon of seedheads, rather than the shucked seeds themselves. I think that a gallon of actual seeds would be enough to plant a whole farm. Incidentally, I am shucking some zinnia seedheads as I do this online session.

" For the most part, I just let them cross randomly. "

I did the same thing this Summer when I was somewhat preoccupied expanding the garden infrastructure and growing other things like melons and seed sunflowers. But I started some zinnias indoors in January and I cross-pollinated them intensively, because I had the time, and indoor deskside pollination is much easier to do than outdoor in-garden pollination. I discovered that a special pair of tick-removal tweezers that I had for that purpose was capable of anther bundle manipulation, and they became my favorite zinnia pollination tool. In conjunction with a head-mounted magnifier, I used them for some really detailed pollination work, including the use of individual zinnia anthers separated from an anther bundle. With extreme pollination techniques like that, you can make a single pollen floret go a long way.

Intensive indoor zinnia pollination and cross pollination can result in some very high seed yields. During that late Winter phase, I accelerated an indoor second generation by pulling green seeds and planting them, and I carried that a step farther by extracting embryos and planting them instead of seeds.

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I used those special tweezers to help with the embryo extraction.

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Planting embryos instead of seeds can speed up the emergence of the next generation. Almost all of the zinnia plants that I transplanted into the garden this Spring were actually second generation zinnias and the seeds that I am shucking now are third generation. I will plant a few of them indoors to start my fourth generation this year. As my enthusiasm for zinnia breeding increases, I tend to become a little more "hard core".

"And, although I liked the scabious hybrids I got this year, I am going to plant more of the Candy Mix. Also, will plant the State Fairs and Profusions together as mentioned previously. And, the whirligigs..they are a crazy bunch with lots of surprises!"

I have some of the Candy Mix seeds left over from a couple of years ago. I plan to plant them inground next Spring, because I could use some new scabious "blood". Your side-by-side method of letting the bees be your little helpers is very efficient and it has paid off for you big time. When I am not distracted by infrastructure activities, I like to take a more "hands on" approach to cross pollination. I am just very lucky that I got a surprisingly good seed yield from my tubular plants when I neglected them this Spring. If the bees cross some of your Profusions with your State Fairs, no telling what you could get.

"The 'Big Red' zinnia that Park introduced a few years back has crossed in with other zinnias in the garden, and now I have these large red zinnias like them, perhaps a little fuller, but with the silky, white-backed petals."

Maybe I will try a few of those Big Reds myself. That white-backed petal thing is a potentially spectacular new zinnia trait.

"I have missed more Shaggy Dogs from you this year, as well as the aster-type flowers you have shown in the past. "

I don't think I planted any Shaggy Dog progeny this year. I guess I have "too many irons in the fire." I am shucking some aster flowered seeds right now that were ostensibly crossed with the original E2 tubular, but did not show tubular petals. There is a possibility that the tubular trait will reappear in a possibly modified form in some of the plants from these seeds. These were big flowers producing big seeds, so the tubulars could be significantly bigger than what we have seen so far. Next Spring I plan to plant a lot of seeds with tubular re-emergence possibilities. That "pitcher plant" specimen that I had this year gives me a lot of optimism for next year. And, yes, I will plant out the progeny from Shaggy Dog.

ZM

OK I Know this Proberly sounds a bit Thick...

But if I bought some Cut Flower Zinnias from a Shop, Would there be any Useable Seed that'll Grow or I am I trying Pee in the Wind Again?

ZM,

Actually, I do have a gallon of seeds from my X-Roll plants. BUT, only about a cup of seeds of that total come from the plants that have shown the X-Roll phenotype this year. The rest of that large amount come from descendents of X-Roll plants that haven't shown the phenotype of their parents. I am keeping the whole lot going from one year to the next, and am doing some backcrossing among the plants. The number of seeds is getting larger and larger but the gene pool is somewhat restricted. I am seeing interesting variations in that population that I don't see from commercially available seeds.

Your illustrations of seed and embryo harvesting above are very well-done, and easy to understand. I still think you should write that book! It's pretty obvious that zinnias have a minimum, if any, amount of endosperm, and that the nutrition is stored in the cotyledons of the embryos. Have you run into any contamination when growing the embryos? Just wondering if the loss of the seed coat might have any negative effect.I guess a sterile growing medium is especially important there.

I have been spending a lot of time harvesting seeds today. I find that getting seeds from living flowers is much easier than from those that have died and dried up. As you have shown above, you can easily select the more viable seeds when harvesting directly from a mature but living flower. I have real problems telling the good seeds from the bad when looking through dried flowerheads. We are due a frost anytime now (almost got one last night!), so while my flowers are still alive, I am trying to get all the seeds that I can.

I cut one flower by mistake today, but I thought it was interesting, because it started out looking like a Benary zinnia, then changed its course and became a cactus. It's looking a little old and tattered and even has a bug.

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The flower that I especially like and is probably a descendent of 'Big Red,' but is softer and a little bigger..is shown in an aged version taken today, below. This is a favorite of mine, and I should take steps to create a line. So far, I've been lucky the last three years in seeing it pop up in my general population here.

{{gwi:16190}}

Ninecrow, I will answer your question based on my experience.....when you get your cut flowers from the shop, make sure they have fresh water (with one teaspoon lemon juice, 1 teaspoon sugar, several drops of bleach per pint of water)everyday, and also, cut the ends of their stems a little every day, so that each has a clean cut stem. Keep the flowers as long as you can that way, and then remove the seeds attached to the bottom-most petals. I've harvested seeds from flowers I've really liked but also wanted to use in bouquets. Let them dry on a paper towel for a week and then store them cool and dry. (See what ZM says!)..

JG

NC,

Actually, I learned the technique of taking green seeds for dried storage from JG. I had been merely taking greenseeds for an immediate germination for a quick next generation. JG informed me that green seeds could be dried and used as any zinnia seed, and I was happy to use that technique to avoid consumption by seed-eating birds and water damage causing premature in-head germination.

I still use the old fashioned way of letting the seedheads get brown and dry before harvesting them, but merely because I frequently get overtaken by events in my multitasking garden activities.

I think JG has a lot more experience with cut flowers than I do. Instead of bleach as a sterilizer I use Physan 20, which I have handy for my indoor gardening activities.

I would add that it is OK to have a leaf or leaves on the stem as long as they are not submerged in the vase water. If they are submerged, they will promptly drown, die, and rot. And smell bad. Of course, when you buy cut flowers from a shop, you have no way of knowing in advance whether or not any of the petals have fertilized seeds attached to them. But when you pull out a few lower petals as JG suggests, you can look at the attached seeds and determine whether they are "empty" or not. Refer to my Embryo Extraction pictures above to get some idea of how to tell if a green seed is empty.

I wouldn't buy zinnias from a florist as a way to obtain seeds, but if it happens that you have some zinnias from a shop, it certainly can't hurt to try to get viable seeds from them, using the process that JG described. And the same applies to any zinnia cutflowers that you take from your own garden. Enjoying your zinnias in a vase and then saving seeds from them is a way to double your fun.

ZM

JG,

Your Big Red descendent is certainly better than Big Red. Yours have a more informal flower form, a definite improvement over the formal dahlia flower form of Big Red. And I detect a hint of lavender or light purple at the petal bases, indicating Whirligig influences.

"Actually, I do have a gallon of seeds from my X-Roll plants."

That is a very impressive amount of zinnia seeds. But I am glad you have them. They increase your chances of stabilizing X-roll and getting some interesting variants as well.

"Have you run into any contamination when growing the embryos? Just wondering if the loss of the seed coat might have any negative effect. I guess a sterile growing medium is especially important there."

It is, at least I think it is. The naked zinnia embryos may very well be vulnerable to attack by bacteria or fungi. To "be on the safe side", I incorporated Physan 20 in the nutrient solution used on their germinating medium. I use Premier ProMix BX with added Perlite as my zinnia germinating and growing medium.

I ran some experiments to determine phytotoxic thresholds for Physan 20 on germinating zinnia seedlings, and concluded that I could safely double the 1.5 teaspoons per gallon recommended for African Violet medium sterilization. The majority of my early year indoor zinnia culture used 1 tablespoon Physan 20 per gallon. However, I should do some experiments with unprotected embryos. A germinating zinnia seed expands, exposing the embryo to the environment, so it may be that my use of Physan 20 was unnecessary.

"I still think you should write that book!"

Thanks for the encouragement, but I want to learn a lot more about zinnias before considering a project like that. If, and when, that time should come, would you consider being a co-author?

"I find that getting seeds from living flowers is much easier than from those that have died and dried up."

I agree wholeheartedly. I am stuck with a bunch of dried brown seedheads merely because I was doing other things when I should have been harvesting green seeds.

I am trying to render attention to my Fall crop of zinnias while still multitasking. We too had a near miss on a Frost last night. I am hoping for several more weeks of development for my Fall zinnias before the outdoor zinnia season ends and the indoor zinnia season begins. This Fall crop zinnia shows that petal uproll combines well with toothy petal ends.

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Now I need to get more uproll and more toothiness. Incidentally, have you experienced an increase in Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetles on your zinnias? I have. I suspect that the maturing of some of my melon vines may have had something to do with that. More later.

ZM

ZM,

I like your toothy line of flowers. The last one has such a pretty shade of lavender. I noticed at the beginning of this thread that you had, at least in the patch you showed, a predominance of pastel colors, and I see a lot of that influence in many of your flowers. Most of my flowers are shades of orange, red, and purple. I think I will bring in lighter colors...through acquiring seeds from lines like the Burpeana Giants and Candy Mix, and then specifically getting seeds for yellow and cream-colored flowers. I don't have a whole lot of them now, but here is one of the few I do have in bloom currently:

{{gwi:16192}}

The last few days have been full ones for me with garden club conferences and meetings. I entered my orange X-roll in the zinnia class of a flower show, and I was happy to see it get the blue ribbon. It's so strange, I wasn't sure what the judges would make of it!

JG

Hi JG,

I am glad your orange X-roll took the blue ribbon, although I would have awarded it Best in Show. But I am biased toward zinnias. That white zinnia has an interesting flower form, with informal big wide petals. Maybe it has some Benary's Giant genes.

My computer is sick so I am using my wife's laptop, and I really don't like this flat keyboard. My son plans to replace the motherboard in my computer, so it will be out of commission for awhile.

This is a picture of one of my current Fall garden echinacea flowered specimens.

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I mainly cross scabious specimens with other scabious specimens, but they still have a fairly high percentage of culls. I also cross toothies with other toothies. Next year, when I have a lot more specimens to work with, I will branch out and make a lot of crosses between types. I spent a couple of hours today culling my Whirligig patch. More later. I hope it doesn't take too long to get my computer back online. I don't know how people get used to these flat keyboards.

ZM

ZM,

I like the echinacea-type floral form in your flower. I have let my scabious flowers cross on their own, and I still get a lot of scabious characteristics in the plants coming from the seeds. Here is an example blooming now:

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And another:

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I have many plants blooming for the first time since the rains began here in August/September.
This is an unusual one with the white center:

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And a red cactus:

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I know how you feel when adapting to a flat keyboard. I have had an iPad for about a year now, and I think it is the best gadget ever...but I really hate trying to use its keyboard!

JG

ZM,

About creatures in the garden--there have been virtually no Japanese beetles here this summer, thanks to the drought. Insects have been few and far between. The only bugs I see in the zinnias now are stink bugs. Usually when I harvest the seeds, the flowers are full of all kinds of spiders, but not this year! There aren't too many butterflies either, although a wave of Monarchs passed by this past week, and I was able to tag 20. There are a number of Painted Ladies and some Cabbage whites, Red Admirals, and Mourning Cloaks, too.

JG

Hi JG,

You have such great zinnia specimens! That second scabious one, the one with the big light colored center is great, and that white centered one just after it, are both amazing. I currently have a scabious specimen that is somewhat similar to your big scabious one.

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Your white centered one could be just environmental. I have had similar ones that became more normal with age and sun exposure. If that is a genetic trait, it would be worth saving separate seeds from. I have a few scabious specimens open now that I consider to be breeders. I will post more pictures after I figure out how to get them into this laptop to process them. Some of those scabious florets can contain useable pollen. I was using some of that "concealed" pollen today.

I dissected three tubular petals today, and to my surprise, none of the three contained anther bundles. So it is still a mystery how all those tubular petals were able to get fertilized. I will keep my eyes open for clues. Most of our butterflies have moved on, but we have several species of Skippers and also several kinds of day-flying moths that visit my zinnia blooms for nectar.

Both the Skippers and the moths have long probing nectar-drinking "tendrils" that could reach down into a tubular petal if there were any nectar there to tempt them. But I don't know if the tubulars have nectar in their tubes and I haven't seen any creatures "drinking" from the tubes. There are many potentially tubular Fall specimens to bloom yet, so I should have ample opportunity to find out how the pollenization takes place. I may have to check for nocturnal insect visits.

I have hand picked a few stink bugs, and a lot more Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetles. I have never seen any Japanese Beetles here -- we must be out of their range. The JBs were terrible in Maine. I did hand pick one wooly worm today. He may have been a vanguard -- wooly worms were numerous last year in late Fall, and caused a lot of damage, despite my hand picking.

I currently have only two 20-foot rows of tubulars, one row from petal seeds and one row from floret seeds. Both rows will have a significant number of culls, but it looks like I will get some tubular blooms from both rows. I will continue looking for anther bundles in the tubular petals, and watch for any other way they could be getting pollinated, including possible nightime visits by moths.

I don't see many spiders when I harvest zinnia seeds, but when I spread the head contents out on a sheet of white typing paper, I frequently see some very small beetle moving on the paper. They are just somewhat bigger than the period at the end of this sentence. There is a whole world of micro-insects and similar micro-creatures that we usually overlook. I suspect that the tiny bugs are adults of a small zinnia-seed weevil, but I don't know for sure about that. More later.

ZM

JG,

We have a possible freeze forecasted for this coming Sunday morning. That could spell the end of my outdoor zinnia activities for the season. More later.

ZM

What a wonderful thread---I have just gone through the last four of them, and I have a few questions; forgive me if they are covered in the 15 or so archived threads I haven't gotten to yet:

1)Saving Seeds 101. I've looked at some of the excellent photos by ZM and I'm not sure I'm saving the right stuff. It looks like you're only supposed to save the dark-colored seeds at the base of the petals, but I also save what's underneath the cones. This leads to a lot of "chaff", and I usually just pick the seeds out by hand. This is great for 10-20 plants, but would be time consuming to ferret out 100 or so. Is there an easy, home-made tool to sift the seeds from chaff, or am I picking the wrong stuff off the head to begin with? I'll attach a photo below of what I'm ending up with.

2) Is it possible to get a head start on the growing season by greenhouse planting embryos in dirt in March? Or is it best to wait until May or so to plant the full seed?

I primarily grow ZYF's and Zahara Starlight Rose because I need hardy and long-lasting flowers that will last long in our desert-like summer heat (95-107 degrees) and attract bees for pollination of my veggie garden.

People have gone absolutely gaga over the ZYF's I've grown this year (they blow off the ZSR's as glorified Shasta Daisies) and I am thinking of growing them to sell commercially next year. I was reading a KS State U. Extension pamphlet (link attached) and in it it states:

"It is important to note that a plant being grown for a
cut flower crop has a higher nitrogen requirement than the
same plant being grown for its flower color display in the
garden. For a cut flower crop, harvesting removes the
stems, each as long as possible, and all attached foliage
as well as the flower. In addition to promoting flowering,
it is important to promote growth of new branches with
sufficient length to be commercially marketable. Traditional
recommendations for fertilizers with ratios either
balanced or favoring phosphorus and potassium over
nitrogen for flowers do not necessarily apply to commercial
cut flower production."

Is this true/does anyone have experience with this? I have the perfect soil blend right now (horse manure/straw/dirt/compost)and feel that adding nitrogen for longer stems will just result in fluffy plants and no flowers.

I ask because I have little to no flower/seed saving experience, since I primarily grow veggies. I had to use the zinnia for bees because we can't have the local apiary put a beehive in our pasture out of fear they might bother the horses.

For what it's worth, the goldfinches don't go anywhere NEAR my zinnias/seeds, even the ones smack in the middle of the veggie rows, because they love to eat the cucumber beetles on the corn a whole lot better. They like to pick them off the Swiss Chard as well. And they are not even remotely afraid of our two cats.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

--H

Here is a link that might be useful: KS St U Pamphlet

Oops, sorry, I forgot one more question:

Attached is a photo of a Candy Cane zinnia that is one plant. Is it normal for these zinnias to produce Solid and Candy Cane on the same plant? It has done this multiple times. It was a surprise to me, as it was a package of supposed Whirligigs from Territorial Seed, but they must have put the wrong seed in the packet because I ended up with ZERO Whirligigs and all Candy Canes, which I don't like the looks of.

This magenta specimen is the ONLY one I like, and I'm interested in saving the seed. I just don't know if it's going to produce a solid or a CCane, or a mix of both next year. Will the seed from the solid produce a solid, and the CCane a CCane? I just don't understand plant genetics very well.

Thanks, H.

Hi H,

"Is there an easy, home-made tool to sift the seeds from chaff...?"

I experimented with a small electric fan, slowly dribbling the chaff/seed mix in front of the fan, and the heavier seed would fall through the air stream fairly well and the chaff would be blown away. Do this experiment outdoors, because the chaff gets blown all over. I abandoned that approach as more trouble than it was worth. And now that I am working with high value multi-hybrid zinnia seed from unique plants, I wouldn't think of risking them to any mechanical separator.

"...or am I picking the wrong stuff off the head to begin with?"

For brown heads, you are picking the right stuff. If you use JG's technique of picking green seeds, you just pull out the lower petals one by one and keep only the ones with a fat seed attached. I save brown heads in plastic grocery bags that I label with a Sharpie pen (because they write easily on plastic grocery bags.) Then sometime later, perhaps weeks or months later, when it is raining or snowing and I can't work outside, I shuck out the seeds. I package the seeds in Snack sized Ziplock bags with a 3x5 card inside with information about those particular seeds. I package green seeds the same way, but I let them air dry for a week or so before packaging them.

"I usually just pick the seeds out by hand. This is great for 10-20 plants, but would be time consuming to ferret out 100 or so."

With a little practice you can pick out 100 seeds in 10 to 15 minutes. Put a white sheet of typing paper under a desk light to act as a sorting platform. Place a "pinch" from the seedhead on the paper, spread it out with your finger, pick out the good looking seeds and drop them in an empty coffee cup, pick up the paper and dump the chaff in a waste basket, return the paper under the lamp for another pinch of seeds to sort. With a little practice you will enjoy this "hands on" method. As JG has mentioned, it is easier to identify the "good" green seeds, but you will learn to gently pinch the brown seeds to verify that they aren't empty.

Is it possible to get a head start on the growing season by greenhouse planting embryos in dirt in March?"

I use a sterile soil-less seed starting and growing medium. But, sure, you can get a very early start using a greenhouse. I don't have a greenhouse, but I started my first generation of zinnias indoors under fluorescent lights in January. Green seeds and embryos from crosses between them were also planted as a second generation indoors in late March and early April and set out in the garden in May. My Fall crop, that is in jeopardy from an early frost, are third generation zinnias for this year.

"This magenta specimen is the ONLY one I like, and I'm interested in saving the seed. I just don't know if it's going to produce a solid or a CCane, or a mix of both next year."

They will probably look like the magenta bloom from the magenta bloom, but zinnias, like the weather, are full of surprises. Incidentally, I think horse manure contains quite a bit of nitrogen.

ZM

ZM,
The 16 Super Castus seedlings I recently transplanted have their 2nd true leaves. I translated when the first true leaves began to show. (The seeds were planted Sept 18th.)

Prior to transplanting, I blended a very good commerical garden soil with decomposed elephant/rhino manure (from the zoo) and added 10-10-10 and ironite. I mixed the mixture lightly into the top on the garden soil. Usually I do things different but the season in rapidly coming to an end.

Question: If you transplant, how and when do you fertilize after transplanting?
Thanks,
Bob

Hi Bob,

"If you transplant, how and when do you fertilize after transplanting?"

As soon as I place the rootball from the pot into the garden soil, I water it in with a dilute solution of soluble nutrients. I use something like Miracle-Gro Tomato Food, one tablespoon in a gallon of water.

Actually, I am re-potting from a pot into the garden soil, rather than transplanting. I just drop the rootball intact into my hand and place it in a suitable hole and firm the garden soil around it. Since the rootball remains intact, the roots are not disturbed. The liquid nutrients insure that the exposed roots are not damaged and are stimulated to grow out into the garden soil.

Keep us informed about the progress of your tetraploid zinnias. If convenient for you, pictures would be welcome. I will be interested in how big your tetra cactus zinnias get.

ZM

Thanks ZM,
If I make it to the flower phase before freezing, I will definitely post pictures. I would very much like to attempt to get crosses as well. I could be wrong on this but it looks like the developer created several "stand alone" stable varieties and included them in the mix. So crossing might produce some interesting results.
Bob

Hi Bob,

"I could be wrong on this but it looks like the developer created several "stand alone" stable varieties and included them in the mix."

You are not wrong. The developer offered seven separate colors in Europe, so what GeoSeed is offering is what they call a "formula mix", which is a mixture of the seven separate colors of seeds.

Many gardeners consider a formula mix to be preferable to a field-grown mix, because bees make random crosses in a field mix, which creates a whole spectrum of different intermediate shades.

If the frost doesn't prevent you, you will have the opportunity to make hybrids between your different tetra colors. You could get some interesting results.

ZM

Hello all!

With respect to gathering seeds from my "special" plants, I always try to collect only the mature seeds that form following successful pollination. But I have a general zinnia garden that I am a little less careful with. The seeds are collected quickly, and any chaff or immature/undeveloped seeds that are included in that collection really don't hurt any. I can sow the seeds heavily in the spring and the chaff and undeveloped seeds act as spacers between the good seeds that will germinate.

We may very well have a frost this coming week--I see the lows that are predicted are in the mid-30s. I am going to try and keep a few plants going by covering them with sheets...hopefully the frost won't damage them. I am still hoping to gather more seeds!

I agree that the white-centered flower I saw may be a
result of environmental factors, but I will see how the seeds pan out next year!

I have already ordered a number of seeds, too. I don't really see anything too new on the market--did get seeds for the large yellow zinnia 'Sungold Hybrid,' an All-America selection. I think I have had that one before. It will serve to give me more yellows in the garden.Also got the State Fairs and Profusions and Zaharas which will go into a somewhat isolated plot...to see if I can get any crosses there.

ZM, it will be interesting to see if you find any significant differences between the tubular flowers arising from the petal and floret seeds. The pollination mystery remains a mystery (I still believe pollination by air can happen, though!).

I see some black spot on my zinnias, but the leaves are also gaining a lot of dark pigmentation on their own. We have had a lot of rain, and it is like a second spring here. Many of the zinnia leaves have holes in them and I have discovered that is the result of slugs! The hostas here have been decimated.

JG

Hi JG,

"...it will be interesting to see if you find any significant differences between the tubular flowers arising from the petal and floret seeds. The pollination mystery remains a mystery (I still believe pollination by air can happen, though!)."

There is a noticeable difference. So far, all of the blooms from the floret seeds have been tubular. Nearly half of the blooms from the petal seeds have been non-tubular. That would tend to suggest that at least some of the petal seeds were not selfed. Perhaps all of them were not selfed. I have dissected tubular petals from several of the petal seeds tubular blooms, and so far I have not found any evidence of anther bundles. I will keep looking. How those tubular petal seeds got pollinated is still a mystery. In this picture, the tubular floret seed plants are in the right-most row, and the tubular petal seed plants are in the row immediately to the left of it.

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The camera is facing East. The three rows to the left are scabious recombinants. Some of them are pretty good. This one has petaloids instead of florets.

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I think the petaloids have accessible stigmas, although with the impending frost, I probably won't be able to verify that those stigmas are functional. I intend to dissect a lot more tubular petals in search of anther bundles. More later.

ZM

I just wanted to pipe in and say that each of you is doing some amazing work/play and producing some incredible flower forms.They may not meet some peoples aesthetic standards, but I love them. If you ever need help growing out a certain population to check for stabilization or whatever, let me know. I'm sure there are others who would love to help as well.

Martha

Hi Martha,

Thank you for your kind words. We will keep you in mind. Zinnias have become an engrossing hobby for me, and despite the insect pests, uncooperative weather, and other "slings and arrows", the fun and excitement that zinnias give me continues to increase. I do like to breed for non-traditional zinnia flowerforms, like this recent scabious recombinant.

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As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and different people have different esthetic preferences. I do enjoy growing zinnias you couldn't get in a commercial seed packet.

ZM

Great topic , lots of good information , and since im still learning i find it vbery useful.

I have 2 questions tough , first i want to know if i can still transplant the zinnia in the picture , as you can see shes already starting to form her first bud.

Second is about full sun , as i live near the equator line (cape verde islands) they are taking only 4 hours of sun , because the uv here is high all year, and is also summer all the time. The climate here is hot and dry. Should i give them more sun regardless? The zinnia in the picture was sowed in September 4.
Thank you.

Hi Neoalx,

You can transplant a zinnia in bud, but try not to disturb its roots. I make a distinction between transplanting and re-potting. To me, transplanting means digging up a zinnia from its location in the garden and re-planting it at a different location. It is very difficult to dig up a zinnia without disturbing and damaging its root system. So I transplant a zinnia only in very unusual circumstances.

On the other hand, I repot zinnias frequently, from a smaller pot to a larger pot to accommodate an expanding root system. With a little care, you can repot a zinnia with minimal or no disturbance to its root system. By tapping or flexing the pot a little, you can cause the root ball to fall out into your hand, causing no disturbance to its roots.

"Should I give them more sun regardless?"

Zinnias are a Full Sun plant, and Full Sun is usually defined as 6 or more hours of direct sun each day. I would try giving them more sun -- just be sure they have enough water and nutrients. I have no direct knowledge of growing zinnias at the Equator, so keep us informed about your experiences with zinnias.

ZM

ZM,

Your last two scabious hybrids were nice! I especially liked the yellow one with red and burgundy trim! The color combination was great! I guess there was some whirligig influence...don't know if scabious zinnias show those color combinations!

Those observations you are making with the tubular zinnias are fascinating. Have you been keeping track of how the offspring resemble the parent(s)? The plants coming from tubular florets are tubular....do they resemble the female parent in other ways?

There is a way of reproduction (APOMIXIS) that happens in a number of the members of the aster family, where the egg cell in the female flower doesn't undergo meiosis, and so can give rise to a seed containing a diploid embryo without fertilization by the male cell in pollen. This happens in dandelions. Zinnias are also a member of the aster family, but I don't know if zinnias have been shown to do this! Circumstantial evidence would be that the seed coming from a tubular flower would give rise to a plant exactly like the female parent. If apomixis happened in all of the flowers of a plant, than all of the offspring plants should be the same as each other and the female parent (essentially, clones). It may be that through your continous selection, you have actually allowed a relatively rare event to become common in these plants. And they are allowed to produce seeds without access to pollen (a survival tactic).....just pure conjecture here....;-)..

Our season is all topsy-turvy here. The plants are behaving like it is spring, but frost is due anytime now.

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JR

Hi Martha,

It is fun to find unusual forms in zinnias. I think I am just as excited by a somewhat goofy, but different flower that I find in my garden as by a hybrid that is really pretty and developed by a seed company. I think the versatility that you can get in zinnias is almost unlimited! The only problem is that a lot of the versatility is seen in hybrids that may be difficult to reproduce (I speak for myself here!). Are you growing zinnias, too?

JG

Hi Neoalx,

I envy your access to a climate where the growing season is year-round! Your zinnia garden could exist in all seasons if you are not at a higher altitude where temperatures could get cooler! I just wanted to make a comment about zinnias growing near the equator. I do have one species of zinnia that is growing in my garden that is native to Peru, near the equator, and also does quite well here in Indiana in the summer.

JG

Hi ZM,
Assuming you wanted to maximize the number of generations in one season, what do you feel is the number of generations you could get in your growing season? How long is your growing season, so I can extrapolate?
Thanks,
Bob

Hi Bob,

I could probably get 5 generations per year, possibly 6 if I was just trying to maximize that. But just working at a comfortable pace, two generations outside and two generations inside. I usually start some zinnias early inside under fluorescent lights, and set them into the ground when it is safe.

This year they were third generation for this year, because I started my first generation early in January, planted embryos from them to start a second generation in March, and planted embryos from them to start third generation seedlings to set in ground in May.

Some of my zinnias bloom in 5 weeks from the seed sowing date, but 6 weeks is a more typical figure. It usually takes a week or so to get a zinnia reasonably pollinated, and 2 or 3 weeks for green seeds with viable embryos to form. For the fastest turnaround, you can remove those embryos and plant them instead of seeds. They will emerge in 2 to 4 days and the next generation has begun.

It is easy to grow zinnias outdoors in the ground, but relatively difficult to grow zinnias indoors in pots under lights. So for most people, two generations outside per year is a more attainable goal.

"How long is your growing season...?"

Normally I can set zinnias inground the first of May and grow a Fall garden as late as the end of October. However, we had a record setting killing frost last night, so I lost nearly a month off of my growing season this year. I did rescue a few breeder zinnias by bringing in cuttings before the freeze. So now I am in the indoor phase nearly a month early. Oh well...let the games begin.

ZM

ZM,
Thanks!
That was extremely helpful. I really appreciate the detail.
That helps me with the Sept 18 planting I did, as well. Hopefully I will get some crosses to try from that recent planting for use in the spring.
Sorry to hear about the early freeze. I saw it on national news tonight.
Bob

Hello, JG
I grow zinnias as a nectar source for butterflies and other beneficial insects in my garden. They also end up being the longest blooming and brightest colored plants. This year, I moved to a new house, so I'm having to re-establish all my butterfly perennials. So, I filled in the spaces with a veritable ocean of Purple Prince and Uproar Rose Zinnias with some smaller varieties at their feet. Even with our horrible drought, I had the prettiest garden of my lifetime. So, I think I will be growing more Zinnias each year.

I was curious about one of the posts earlier in this thread that described a flower that was an ant magnet. I was wondering if for some reason that flower contained more nectar, or had a more fragrant nectar to the insects. For all of my butterfly gardening friends, that would be a fantastic trait to encourage. We've already recognized that the butterflies prefer the blossoms that have a "center" or flat top for landing and open access to the reproductive organs. If any of you want to try to create a "butterfly friendly" zinnia, we'd love it. I would try, but that would require hours spent in observation to see which flowers were preferred, and I just don't get to spend that much time in the garden.

Anyway, nice to chat with you all. I'll keep checking in to see what you're up to.

Martha

Hi Martha,

I have a dedicated perennial butterfly garden, too, with plants like liatris, cupplant, butterfly bush, turtlehead, New England aster, and many more...along with many of the plants and trees that support their larvae. But I find that the zinnia gardens I have probably attract the butterflies more than any other places I have here, mainly for the nectar! ZM on this thread has noticed that ants like particular zinnias. I don't know if he has observed if there is a class of zinnias that is more effective. I've not seen ants on my zinnias (as in the the way that ants love peony buds). But I have noticed that the butterflies go for then taller zinnias, and those that have lots of disc florets. Those are the tiny yellow flowers that appear in the center of the (composite) zinnia flowers. They are the source of the pollen and also have the nectaries at their bases. You will see bees, butterflies, moths, and hummingbirds go to these tiny flowers for the nectar. Many seed catalogs list a "giant, or large, dahlia-flowered" mix of zinnia seeds. These will grow into plants that have flowers with many disc florets that the butterflies really like! Also some of the cactus zinnia mixes are good.

Below are a close-up of the disc florets and then a spicebush swallowtail sipping nectar, both from zinnias here in my garden.

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JG

Hi Martha,

The ants on my "ant zinnia", which was code-named "E3", seemed to be working throughout the head of the zinnia, finding what they were there for at the base of the petals. That zinnia was very double. The zinnia didn't have a lot of pollen florets, and didn't seem to have any special attraction for butterflies. I wondered if the ants might bother the butterflies, but I didn't see that happen. That zinnia was designated as a breeder for its flower size and petal formation, so I will be growing some of its progeny next year, and I will be on the lookout for ants again. It received quite a lot of pollen from my tubular petaled mutant (E2).

I haven't decided yet if ant attraction is a good thing or a bad thing. The ants were a kind of annoyance because they tended to get on my hand while I was pollinating the zinnia. I tolerated them because they didn't seem to be aphid-herding ants, and none of them stung me.

ZM

Hi JG,

Thanks for bringing up the subject of apomixis. I will do some research on that. Before the freeze I brought in a sampling of tubular heads.

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I will dissect those tubular petals in search of the elusive anther bundles. I have dissected a dozen or more petals from the petal seed progeny, so far with no trace of an anther bundle. More later.

ZM

ZM,

We also got the hard freeze you got. I am going to immensely miss the time I spent everyday in the zinnia gardens...something I looked forward to each day. I am very glad I made the large collections of seeds that I did...I can look those over and think about next summer's garden. I also have a nice bouquet in here of assorted zinnias that may last us a week or so.

I'm glad you got all those flowers gathered before the frost. You really have a good start on starting the tubular line! It does look like you have a recessive gene going there. You mentioned looking for anther bundles--are you going to cross those flowers to get seeds as they mature under lights-- if you find the anthers? Or let them mature to see what happens even if you don't find the anthers? I mentioned apomixis because it would be very exciting if you could show that was what was happening with your zinnias. I don't know if that has been documented in zinnias or not. Again, I can't help but wonder how my patches of Benary zinnias have produced so many seeds with no or little apparent sources of pollen nearby. I always thought it must be wind, because the attraction to those zinnias for bees, etc. with no disc flowers would be pretty low. I never made observations as to how the offspring of each plant looked the next season.

I guess you will be maintaining cuttings of your tubular flowers through the winter. We will look forward to seeing your results.

On the side, did you get a good yield of melons this year?

JG

As long as you guys don't mind, I'll keep coming here for all my Zinnia questions. I grew Zahara Starlight Rose this summer, which are a very short, primarily white blossom with a triangle of rose coloring at the center of each petal. The rose portion on each petal creates a star-shaped design in the center of each bloom. Anyway, the photos in the seed catalogues show the star part of the bloom much larger than the stars that appeared in my garden. Of course I understand that there are always variations in the appearance of various blooms. But, I'm wondering whether there is any way to maximize my chances of getting as much color as possible by providing special fertilizers or changing the amount of sunshine or water, etc. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Martha

Hi JG,

" Again, I can't help but wonder how my patches of Benary zinnias have produced so many seeds with no or little apparent sources of pollen nearby. I always thought it must be wind, because the attraction to those zinnias for bees, etc. with no disc flowers would be pretty low."

We have a similar mystery -- me with my viable tubular petal seeds and you with your high seed yields on flower heads that produced very little, if any, pollen. When you first mentioned wind-borne zinnia pollination, my first thoughts were that zinnia pollen grains are much too large and heavy to qualify as wind-borne pollen.

True wind-borne pollen can travel for long distances: hundreds of feet, miles, or many miles. But our zinnia garden situations don't require nearly that much range. In your case, a matter of feet, and in my case, a matter of inches or even small fractions of an inch. At this point, I am not ruling out "airborne pollination" of zinnias.

This summer, when I had many hundreds of zinnia blooms open at the same time, there was a free-for-all competition for pollen and nectar among several species of butterflies and bees. I noticed that frequently a bee would land on a zinnia bloom that was presenting no pollen, briefly look for some, and then fly to another zinnia.

Apparently bees can't or don't see whether a zinnia has available pollen before they land on it. A zinnia bloom that has no pollen florets can still get many momentary visits from many bees. That could explain your fertilized Benary's Giants. It might even explain my fertilized tubular petals. More later. I love a mystery, and this one make take some time to solve.

ZM

ZM,

I can think of one way to solve the mystery, and that is, to enclose a flower bud from the time it is totally closed to full maturity, so that there is no possibility of its contact with insects or pollen. The cover could be something transparent so that you could watch the flower grow. Hopefully, this set-up wouldn't impede the flower's development other than, possibly, seed-set. Wish my garden were still in bloom, and I would try it now!

There is a lot of clean-up to do now....I need to mow my zinnias, then if the gardens are dry, run the tiller through them once or twice. There is also a lot of weeding to do in the perennial beds. I think there may be as much work in the garden after the growing season as during! I am packaging my seeds now, and also, trying to get the garden tools cleaned up, pots put away, etc.

Martha, there's no doubt that environment can influence the way that zinnias bloom. For me, this is most apparent when the weather starts to get colder in the fall. Often colors will be more intense, or there will be more contrast in patterns. Also, some double zinnias will become single under crowded conditions. Some striped zinnias may become solid, or v.v., and that may be the influence of unstable genes associated with pigmentation, viruses, or environment. But I suspect that the Starlight you have has a small star because you have seeds of a particular line of plants. You could collect seeds of the flowers with the biggest stars and selectively breed a line for yourself over successive seasons. Or, you might call the company where you bought the seeds, and the horticulturist there might give you an explanation.....let's see what ZM thinks here!

Hi Martha,

" But, I'm wondering whether there is any way to maximize my chances of getting as much color as possible by providing special fertilizers or changing the amount of sunshine or water, etc."

I have never grown Zahara zinnias, but people in this New for 2010 message thread report that high temperatures cause Zahara Starlight Rose to be bleached out and the good rose color centers show up below 90 degrees F. So instead of special fertilizers, you need to bribe your weatherman to give you some cooler temperatures.

Incidentally, I agree with JG that cooler temperatures bring out brighter colors in zinnias in general.

ZM

ZM,

All my zinnias still stand in the gardens, frost-bitten. Have you ever collected seeds from zinnias that have been frozen, and gotten good germination with those? Some of my flowers are bearing plenty of seeds, but they are wet and cold--just wondering if there is any viability. If they were dry, I would be hopeful(dry seeds at low temperatures do OK), but have never planted those that remain both wet and have gone through a frost.

JG

Hi JG,

"Have you ever collected seeds from zinnias that have been frozen, and gotten good germination with those? Some of my flowers are bearing plenty of seeds, but they are wet and cold--just wondering if there is any viability."

I have not done that, so I can't say anything on the subject that is based on experience. But I have a similar situation. Lots of interesting zinnias that are still standing after three successive killing freezes in the twenties. I, too, am interested in recovering any possible seeds from these very dead zinnias.

I pulled all of my dead Whirligigs and discarded them in the trash. That garden looks almost ready for a Spring planting. I had already saved seeds and taken cuttings from the few breeder quality specimens. I noticed that their root systems were still alive. At some time in a future year I would probably tissue culture the roots of such "dead" zinnias. But I have yet to develop tissue culture proficiency with zinnias. That is something to work on this Winter.

In my other zinnia garden, I plan to gather some of the more mature soggy dead blooms and pull out the seeds to see if any seem to contain "fat" embryos. Those seeds could be spread out on a newspaper and air dried for possible future use. But first I will remove some embryos, if any seem viable, from some of those frozen blooms and try to germinate them now.

If the embryos germinate, they will become part of my indoor generation 4 for this year, and that would suggest that the dried versions might be good to plant next year. If the "frozen" embryos don't germinate, I won't waste time drying frozen green seeds. If they do germinate, then drying the frozen green seeds could be worthwhile.

"... but have never planted those that remain both wet and have gone through a frost."

Me either. This could be a good thing, with an opportunity to try some zinnia experiments that we haven't done before.

ZM