Hee, in Arkansas, in the last week, we've seen 70, however, we're about to face the possibility of snow and the low of 11F. Just call it the terrain of unsettled weather. It's almost a given every month of the year will have 70F in it (hot or cold). I'm happy also that I have lot of house plants blooming and that I've been planting hardy nursery stock outside.

I have yet to do more than think of starting zinnia seeds. Forecast last frost is early to mid April I think. You know..that means I could start seed I guess about March 1st indoors....maybe not too far away yet.

Hi dBarrron,

"You know..that means I could start seed I guess about March 1st indoors.."

You probably don't want to start them more than four weeks before the time you intend to set them out in the garden. Zinnia seedlings grow fairly fast. If you think it might be six weeks before you set them out, you might want to start them in a 3-inch pot for each seed. Were you thinking of starting them in plastic trays?

Probably starting in a flat, then transplanting into something larger, maybe some 1 1/2 inch pots that I have.

Ah, I'm jealous, dBarron, I'll admit it. We're going through a week of hell here, to put it plainly. Very low temps, below zero possibly in the AM, though it wasn't this morning. But what really makes it bad is the wind - 30 and more mph winds. I worry about the ferals - we take care of a colony of feral cats. I put down food and water, and it freezes within minutes, it seems. Lately, I've been staying home more than going into the shop, and I do what I can to change the water and food when it freezes. Fortunately, they have the shelters we built to retreat to. Geez, sorry - more info that you need - or want - to know! :)
Well, it can't last too much longer.

ZM - I hope the houzz staff comes through with some of the improvements you requested - I'm feeling resistant to this format. Doesn't feel right. I'm not comfortable. But then it could be the cold. Arrrggghh! Do I sound frustrated? Oh, and Beta Jr doesn't look all that good. I'll have to take a pic and see what you think. But not now; I'm being contrary.

Exasperatingly,
Alex

Hi dBarron,

A few years ago, when I first began starting zinnias early inside under fluorescent lights, I purchased some small square green plastic pots. They were about 2.5 inches wide by 2 inches deep and I could get 32 of them in an 11 x 22 PermaNest tray.

They were OK for starting things with small seeds like petunias, pansies, onions, etc. But for zinnias, as soon as the seedling emerged (2 to 8 days), its taproot was already sticking out one of the four holes in the bottom of the pot. Something usually "happened" to that protruding taproot.

But that wasn't catastrophic, because side roots quickly appeared and within three weeks or so the square pot was "nicely" root bound. I say "nicely" root bound, because that little square root ball (root cube?) held together nicely for repotting.

I didn't have any suitable larger square pots at that time, so I repotted the little 2.5-inch cubes into the bottom halves of 2-liter bottles. Those cost nothing, and worked rather well as pots.

I used the 2-liter soft drink bottles as pots for several years. They were indestructible and gave you a very clear view of the root development. There were a couple of disadvantages: they were "tippy" and being round, didn't make the fullest use of the space they took up. Eventually I replaced them with black 5-inch square pots, which are my main "go to" pots to this day.

ZM

15 below zero last night, and it's supposed to be the same tonight. It's already slightly below zero now. Going through firewood like water. But am I complaining? Not-t-t m-e-e-e...

Hi Alex,

I concede that it is waay colder where you are than here. It got up to 25 today, is now 18 on the way to 13 tonight. All comfortably above zero. We did get some snow and sleet today and something is coming down now. I think we have less than an inch of accumulation, although it remains to be seen what we will have by morning.

I hope Houzz does give us more control over what our text looks like. I think the majority of users here do not like the changes Houzz has made. Houzz is trying to address user complaints, although it remains to be seen how far they go. I am basically typing in the final message box, with no option to Preview, because this IS the Preview. I have 4 buttons below, Photo, Houzz Photo, Video, and Link. But instead of a Preview button, I have only a Submit button, Like I said, I am typing in what amounts to the Preview window. To let us enter HTML they would have to go back to the old Message Box, Preview mode, similar or identical to what the "old" Garden Web provided. Houzz may not be willing to make that much of a change.

I hope that you have Propane to use as a backup to your wood burning. We have maybe a day or two of wood in the garage and maybe another day or two of wood outside, but not enough to heat this place for an extended time.

I did get a Propane fill recently, so we should be good. However, we are subject to some serious inconvenience if the electric power fails, as it does from time to time, particularly if there is an ice storm.

Our water depends on electricity to run the pump in the Well, and the furnace might burn Propane in the absence of electricity, but the fan to circulate the warm air through the house ductwork depends on an electric motor, so if we lost power for an extended time we would need to lock the place up and drive to visit my younger son or daughter for a while. And hope that the fanless furnace would generate enough heat to keep the pipes from freezing.

I have several second generation zinnias in bloom now, and I will be doing some cross pollination on them in the coming days. I have a few "good" specimens, and I have been culling some unimpressive indoor zinnias. It feels kind of weird to cull an indoor zinnia, but shelf space is limited, so only the better specimens have a place on it.

I am still on the watch for thrips or spider mites. So far, so good. I already have accumulated some seed from the first generation zinnias that I can plant out this Spring, and I hope to add to that from the remaining first generation zinnias as well as from the second generation.

My main progress occurs in the outdoor phase when I can grow a relatively large number of zinnias. My indoor phase is aimed at providing a good seed supply for the outdoor phase. More later. Stay warm.

ZM

ZM - here's the pic of Beta Jr. He has a weird mottling to his leaves. Is that evidence of thrips? I can't see anything on him. So glad you are not having to deal with that with all of your beauties. Any more of those bedhead ones show up?

We were not 15 below again this morning - more like 4 degrees when I checked around 5:30 AM. Need you ask why I was up then? Cats, of course. Heh heh. Unfortunately, more minus temps forecast in the near future. I see minus 12 for next Monday. Hope they're wrong.

We stockpiled approximately 6 cords this autumn, so we still have a bit to go. The propane was at 45%, so we're fine there, since we rarely use it for heat, only the stove and hot water heater. Yeah, loss of electricity can be a problem for us, too, but more for the water. We put in a hand pump some years back, but we'd have to go outside to pump it.

I've had to hit the edit button on this post about 4 times - the first time because I was going to make a snide comment about the new format, but the other times, because I was having trouble with posting the pic. Trying again...

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I have had problems with the edit button as well. No theories on that. Beta Jr's mottling doesn't resemble a nutrient deficiency, or any common zinnia disease. It could be a toxicity symptom, but I don't know of what. I wish I knew more about zinnia toxicities. My last Spring's thrips episode showed a variety of different symptoms in young zinnias. Thrips are very small, and the younger instars are essentially microscopic. Do you have any way of viewing Beta Jr. with a strong magnifier of some sort? Do you have a laser pointer? That might help you see thrips, by annoying them to move. (Don't shine the laser in your eyes.) Or if you have a really strong laser, you might be able to explode them. Hopefully PETA wouldn't mind. I think my phase of burning ants with a magnifying glass was before PETA was founded. And before lasers.

Years ago my oldest son gave me a pocket microscope from Radio Shack and it has come in handy over the years. The basic microscope is 20 power with a little penlight bulb illuminator and it has a little 8-power very tiny hand lens that you could pull out. Either way, I could see thrips with it.

Adult thrips, the ones with the weird wings, can be detected without a lens if you look really close and they happen to be moving around. But a lens, preferably a strong one, is needed for the younger thrips, which I suspect might be what Junior has.

If you could flick some small water droplets onto Junior's leaves, some of the droplets could act as a lens and help you see a thrips that happened to be near the center of where the droplet landed. A toothbrush might help you flick water droplets. Some artists use a toothbrush and their thumb to apply paint in a spatter effect.

I don't have one, but one of those loupes that some photographers use for close inspection of a negative or transparency slide might help. Or a toy microscope.

Maybe if a zinnia gets a chill it can develop a mottled look like that. But right now, I would suspect an invasion of young thrips. Maybe if you tried to take an extreme close-up picture of Junior, the thrips might become visible. If it is thrips, Junior will take on a much worse looking appearance in a few days. But if it is thrips, you could take this as a good opportunity to study thrips on a zinnia. They are remarkable little creatures. You could think of them as extremely small feral cats.

ZM

Oh, cute. Teeny tiny feral catthrips. Well, I have decided they aren't really there, and you had it right when you said nutrient deficiency of some sort. I put on my optivisor, which I think was supposed to be 2.75, though nowhere on the box does it say so; AND I further used a magnifying glass to take a real-l-ly close look - nothing moving. I blew on the leaves - nada. Up close, it just looks like a loss of chlorophyll in some of the cells, making that white mottling. So I gave him a drink and some boron-laced food, and I've renamed him Groot for one of the Guardians of the Galaxy. Lot of power in a name. I expect to catch him dancing around in his pot like little Baby Groot before too long.
- Alex

I can't understand how to breed zinnias with some of those colorful petals, shapes, and etc... Can somebody explain it for me? :)

Hi Les_ter,

There are several ways to go about it, depending on how much space you have available to breed zinnias. If you have a lot of space and can grow many hundreds of zinnia plants, you can just plant a mixture and look around carefully when they bloom out and find some interesting shapes and colorful petals.

If you have a limited amount of available space and can grow only a few zinnias at a time, pick a variety that is known to have a lot of variation, like the Whirligigs, which were derived from interspecific crosses between Zinnia violacea (elegans) and Zinnia haageana. Whirligigs are available in two "strains", depending on who you buy them from. There is a mostly single or semi double version and a mostly fully double version. I prefer the latter, although single Whirligigs can look quite good in a single flower, because that lets you see the interesting two-color and three-color petal combinations without the petals being obscured by overlapping petals.

Whirligigs usually have two colors on each petal, and sometimes three colors with the third color occurring in a over-lap zone. This is an example of a two-color red-tipped-white Whirligig zinnia:

Many Whirligigs have a cactus flower form like that specimen. This is an example of a red-and-white Whirligig that has a different flower shape. Not only are its petals curved downward, but notice the "teeth" on the petal ends.

Whirligigs come in many forms and colors, including petals that have marbled or streaked combinations of color.

I like that form of striping better than the Peppermint type zinnias, whose spotted looks remind me of the measles.

The trick to getting really new forms of zinnias is to find two zinnias in your zinnia patch that each have some feature that you like and is a bit unique. Then cross those two zinnias to get an F1 hybrid between those two. It will combine the features of both and, in doing so, will be a bit predictable. But now, save seeds from that F1 hybrid and they will be F2 hybrids. The F2 generation will contain many unpredictable recombinations of the genetic factors of your two original picks. There are a lot genes in a zinnia and they can be recombined in an astronomical number of ways, giving rise to wholly new zinnias that you, and possibly no one, has seen before.

Now suppose that you found not just 2, but 4 "interesting" zinnias in your zinnia patch. You could make 6 different crosses between those four, or 12 different crosses if you consider that there are two different ways each cross could be made (you could pick the seed parent two ways). With your 6 (or 12) different F1 hybrids, you could save seeds from each of them to get a lot of interesting F2s, OR you could make crosses between your crosses. That can produce some super interesting stuff, because you are crossing unique new recombinations with other unique new recombinations. The number of possible outcomes from that is, as they say, "astronomical".

If you have some space to grow quite a few zinnias, you can have a lot of fun breeding your own zinnias.

ZM

Hi Alex,

That mottled pattern on "little Baby Groot" could be an indication of Boron deficiency, but it isn't a typical look. Boron deficiency usually results in some distortion of the leaf shape as well. Keep us informed on Groot's progress. It will be interesting if your supplied Boron helps.

ZM

Hey Zenman -
Baby Groot almost looks like he is variegated, but other than that, he doesn't have leaf distortion. Knocked him out of his pot today to see how his roots were doing (don't worry - I was gentle). His roots are growing, though not very quickly. I'll leave him be for a while longer then repot.

Hi Alex,

Just out of curiosity, what size pot is Baby Groot in? And what is the nature of the growing medium?

I have been saving some seeds from my first indoor generation plants. Those seeds are mostly F2s involving either Razzle Dazzle or Exotic flowerforms. Razzle Dazzle has been rather obstinate when crossed with conventional zinnias by creating an F1 that has no hint of the RD flowerform, but instead a rather single or semidouble daisy-like zinnia. Fortunately those are profuse producers of seeds, which are by definition F2 seeds. They will be planted out in several of my flowerbeds with a high expectancy of culling. But hopefully there will be a few new recombinant forms exhibiting modifications to the RD flowerform. Some of those modifications could be improvements. There must be something rather different about the RD genetics.

I ran across another zinnia genetic mystery today. One of my F1s had flowerheads with a high percentage of pollinated petal seeds and NO floret seeds to pollinate them. And I didn't pollinate them. And those petal seeds were extra large and some of them had pregerminated in the flowerhead. Jackie R had a technical term for that phenomenon, which I forget at the moment -- but it is NOT a good thing. Fortunately, in-head pregermination is a self-culling phenotype (effectively lethal gene).

Still I am going to grow those to see what is going on, and I planted 7 green seeds from it today. I even gave it a breeder code, although there is a good chance it will be discarded. But I would like to solve the mystery of self-pollinating petal seeds. It may be that the gimmick is that it had florets that bore pollen, but were somehow self sterile. I can't think of any advantage to a trait like that. More later.

ZM

Baby Groot is in his 2" clay pot that I moved him into after the Thrips Incident. At present, I'm using Baccto seedling propagating mix. I'm down to less than 4 cu ft worth of mix, though, so I'll have to find some more soon. I used to buy Sunshine Mix #2 when we had the shop in the big city, and we could go pick it up. I could afford it at wholesale prices and no shipping, but geez - no way these days, especially with shipping costs! Guess I'll make the rounds of the box stores and see what they can order for me - correction: what they are PERMITTED to order for me. Thank the gods I am not in a retail business where I am forced to buy only from specific distributors."Jackie R had a technical term for that phenomenon" - what? Immaculate conception? :-)

- Alex

(Did I mention it was 20 below zero yesterday morning?)

Hi Alex,

20 below is seriously bad. I don't think our "feels like" temperatures have gotten that low. Are you in the state with "a thousand lakes"? If so, they would be mostly ice I would think.

A 2-inch pot is rather small for a zinnia seedling. I have some 2-inch square plastic pots that I quit using for zinnias because, by the time the seedling had fully emerged and spread its cotyledons, its tap root was growing out one of the holes in the bottom of the pot.

Do you happen to have a Home Depot handy? If so, they have taken to stocking Premier Pro-Mix in 2-cubic-foot compressed bales for something over $13. If it is available to you, you might want to try a bale to see what you think of it. I have been using 3.8-cubic-foot compressed bales of Pro-Mix BX for many years, but my local supplier temporarily ran out of it, so I picked up one of the smaller bales at Home Depot. I haven't used it yet, so don't have any hands-on experience with it. At least they are easier to carry than the 3.8-cubic-foot bales. More later.

ZM

(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi Alex,
Is it possible to breed zinnias with another composite Plants?

Lester - nope, not that I would imagine, but Zenman's the one to answer that one.

ZM - yeah, I tol' ya it was a teeny tiny clay pot, but trust me, right now it's growing very slowly. It was an intuitive move to repot Groot in the smaller pot and in clay as well, because I wanted to be sure his root system wasn't overwhelmed . I don't really mean that in a frivolous anthropomorphic way, you know, even though that's how I usually sound. :-)I want the seedling to have plenty of air; too easy to overwater in a bigger pot. Excuse me for preaching to the choir, but for the sake of others with less experience who might read this, I'll explain what I mean. When a plant is obviously stressed as this one has been, the approach is for the best balance as possible: air around the roots - not enough to dry it out; water - not enough to drown it; warmth - not enough to fry it; humidity - not enough to cause mold. A larger pot, especially plastic, could simply be a lot of wet soil around puny roots. When Groot's roots hit the bottom of the pot, I'll repot him, because I'll know he's ready.

Yes, 20 below was not pleasant. Tomorrow and Weds are also going to be double digits below, though not quite that low. Supposedly this is going to change in March. Though I'm starting to lose faith that we haven't entered the next Ice Age.

I've never tried Pro-Mix - I see there are various mixes. I prefer spaghnum moss with perlite in it. Which one are you using? Does it have perlite? There is a Home Depot in one of the towns near us. We go that way frequently; I'll check it out. When I used to buy Sunshine Mix, it was in those huge bales - I know what you mean; a bit awkward to handle.
- Alex

Hi Lester,

It is not possible to cross zinnias with other composites using ordinary cross pollination with pollen.

You can cross essentially any two plants using advanced tissue culture techniques, in which you remove the cell wall of both species to be crossed to produce naked protoplasts. You then mechanically force the two protoplasts together to produce a hybrid protoplast which is then tissue cultured to produce a hybrid plant. That technique is called somatic hybridization and it is dependent on protoplast technology to remove the cell walls. You can read about it in many books on tissue culture. For example, In Vitro Plant Breeding in Chapter 6. Somatic Hybridization Using Protoplast Technology.

Somatic hybridization is not currently within the scope of amateur plant breeding, and the results would be considered to be Genetically Modified Organisms, and GMOs are rather controversial.

ZM

(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi Alex,

"I've never tried Pro-Mix - I see there are various mixes. I prefer spaghnum moss with perlite in it. Which one are you using? Does it have perlite? "

It does have Perlite. The Home Depot bag lists Peat, Perlite, Limestone (for pH adjustment), and Wetting agent as the ingredients. Apparently they don't want to confuse people, but Home Depot's website for Pro Mix also mentions "MycoActive Organic Growth Enhancer", but a lot of people don't know about those beneficial fungi and would be off-put if they advertised it on the bag.

When I am repotting to a larger pot, I usually add some extra Perlite to my Pro-Mix to give it better drainage. I use Perlite from both Hoffmans and Miracle-Gro. Both seem to be relatively clean, dust-free, and safe to handle. I bought some bulk Perlite a couple of years ago and discovered it had a lot of dust and fines in it, so I sent it to the landfill. Live and learn.

ZM

(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM -OK, I checked out the Pro-Mix and I can get it at Home Depot, but some customer had posted a pic of the mix itself (helpful, that), and I've decided I'd prefer to have some more perlite in the mix, which Home Depot didn't have in stock right now. But it looks like maybe I can get it at Menards which is actually closer to me. I'll give it a try. Just stumbled across some old thread from 2009 raving about Pro-Mix, but how no one could find it at their local stores. Reminds me of one of my wild treks across the country trying to find Sunshine Mix or ANY propagation mix in something other than a dinky 2 quart bag. I walked into this very large gardening center - gorgeous displays of supplies and plants; I thought: "FINALLY - this place will have what I want; they've got everything!" Couldn't believe it - their selection was a tiny bag of Jiffy mix. I'm afraid I was rude to the store clerk, and I am very rarely rude to clerks since it's not their fault. But it was sort of the last straw. I apologize in general in expiation for my sins. Now where in heck is my PROPAGATION MIX?!
- Alex

Hi Alex,

"But it looks like maybe I can get it at Menards which is actually closer to me. I'll give it a try. "

Wow! You have a Menards, too. I just bought a bunch of T8 fluorescent fixtures from our local (Topeka KS) Menards. I ordered them from their central online store and had them delivered to the Topeka store. That way the shipping was free. I wish had checked to see if they had ProMix in the store. I shop in Topeka from time to time, although it is a little over an hour's drive from our rural location.

Pro-Mix does have Perlite, but it is a good idea to buy some separate Perlite, so you can boost the Perlite content to suit your taste. The separate Perlite should be good and dust free with no fines, so it won't be a hazard to handle. You wouldn't want to breathe in any Perlite dust. I enjoy the hands-on process of fluffing up compressed Pro-Mix and mixing in extra Perlite. That is "one of those relaxing, mindless activities that I especially excel at", to quote your own words.

ZM

No problema. I already have surgical masks hanging around here because of the dust from cat litter. I can remember years back when I used to be messing with perlite, vermiculite, etc. and never wearing a mask. I'm fortunate I didn't ruin my lungs. Ah, the ignorance of youth.

Another thing I used to enjoy, though I doubt I would now as it's a real back-breaker - sieving compost. I loved the smell and the feel of the soft compost. So did my plants. I really need to set up a good compost pile again...

- Alex

Hi Alex,

The "good" consumer Perlite doesn't require you to wear a mask. I also have a supply of paper masks on hand, including some that have a little one-way valve that let you exhale easily through the valve. The big bag of bulk Perlite that I sent to the landfill had grave warnings about wearing a mask to avoid breathing any of the dust. And they were justified, because that product included a lot of Perlite dust as well as fines.

I ruled out dumping it on the garden or in a compost pile, because I didn't want to raise the possibility that the dust from my garden might be carcinogenic. That's why I put the big bulk bag of Perlite in a big black plastic contractors bag and sealed the contractor bag. I felt justified in double bagging that stuff so the trash crew wouldn't be exposed to it. I told the garden store about my opinion of the bulk Perlite product, just so they would know it was unsuitable for horticultural use, and I expressed doubt that it would be useful as an additive to concrete to lighten the mix, because it had so much fines in it. Hopefully l raised some doubt in their mind as to the desirability of restocking the product.

"Another thing I used to enjoy, though I doubt I would now as it's a real back-breaker - sieving compost."

I don't have compost sieves but I do have a shredder-chipper that has a hammer mill with interchangeable screens. For a fine textured product I mount the 1/4-inch screen and the swinging "hammers" keep bashing the compost until it escapes through the quarter-inch holes. I do wear protective gear when using the hammermill to process compost. Sometimes I use it to process material to add to a pile and sometimes I put a pile back through the hammermill if it was spotty in its decomposition. I haven't developed a good technique for turning one of my compost piles. They are 8-feet across and 4 to 5 feet high, so they are a bit of a materials-handling challenge.

But I agree with you. Finished fine-textured compost is a pleasure to work with.

ZM

Hi guys!

Back at last

I couldn't figure out how to get onto my old account, but I'm Squishy, the newbie-to-zinnias :)

I've finally got a collection of zinnia seedlings up and growing!

I think I'll put the bigger ones in the garden soon :)

Summer is coming to an end over here but our seasons are mild enough that I'm gonna continue gardening throughout the winter.

You guys must be nearing spring now.

Excited?

Squishy...uh, Heather! Nice to have you back. I kind of figured there was a problem with your account - Zenman and I both had identity crises as well with the changeover. I have to apologize for assuming you were a guy. I'm Alexandra, by the way.
Not quite spring here yet. It was 20 below just a few days ago; in the morning it's supposed to be minus 11. It's about 2 degrees F right now. Am I tired of it? Oh, yes.
But enough of my woes - look at those hearty zinnia babies! Good work. Looking forward to seeing their blooms.
ZM - the man has a wood chipper - be still my heart! I don't even have a sharp hoe. Sigh.
How would the perlite fines be a problem in the garden? It's just ground rock, right? Why would that be carcinogenic? I'm asking seriously - is there a problem with perlite that I should know about?
- Alex

My zinnia seeds are germinating in just 2 and a half days! .. yay!

Hi Alex,

"How would the perlite fines be a problem in the garden? It's just ground rock, right? Why would that be carcinogenic? I'm asking seriously - is there a problem with perlite that I should know about?"

Not really. I did some Googling today that indicated that Perlite is not carcinogenic. Its dust is considered "nuisance dust" and you should wear a mask to avoid breathing it, the same as many dusts. I was basically misinformed about the cancer hazards of Perlite. There aren't any. However, it is not just ground rock, it is an expanded form of a glass-like volcanic mineral, a bit like glass foam. It is mined as a solid (which contains some water of hydration) and heated to expand it by a factor of 5 to 20. Sort of like popcorn.

A thread here in Garden Web, Vermiculite/Perlite is somewhat alarming, but makes the mistake of assuming that the hazards are the same for the two. Bottom line is you were pretty much right about Perlite and I was pretty much wrong. Boo hoo. But now I feel better about working with Perlite. If it has dust, which not all perlite products have much of, wear a mask. Perlite is relatively safe. Yay!

ZM (head held high, despite being wrong)

Oooo - I just love it when you get all technical. :) Here - wait a minute...let me get the score sheet out to record this one. You crack me up.

Well, you'll be happy to know the weather site was wrong - it was not 11* below zero this morning. It was minus 20*. I also especially love it when my hand STICKS TO THE DOORKNOB when I'm coming back in from collecting the solid block of ice that was the ferals' drinking water dish. And just to head you off at the pass, in case your agile mind was going in that direction - I know I could get heated water troughs, but I'm leery of putting anything with electrical wiring out there that some cat (or possum) might take it into their head to chew. Every solution I come up with involves either lots of time and effort or lots of money - or both.

So......post some pretty pics for the rest of us. You have the technology; you can do it.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Galvanized steel electrical conduit in the 1/2-inch size costs less than $2 for an 8-foot section. You could use steel conduit to armor the electric cord in the vicinity of where the animals might want to chew it. If the ground wasn't frozen hard as a rock, you could simply bury the cord.

Some of my "Bed Head" zinnia's progeny have similar informal flower forms.

None are exactly the same and some differ significantly.

Oddly, the original Bed Head zinnia is still alive and blooming. So I have the opportunity to do both backward crossing and forward crossing between the original Bed Head and its progeny, and I think I will take advantage of that opportunity. Tomorrow and the next day are supposed to be warmer here, possibly in the 40's, so I may do some outdoors garden work on my expansion section. More later.

ZM

I'm posting to,revive an issue that had come up amidst the transition to Houzz. People were discussing whether or not Wintersowing is an appropriate method for germinating zinnia seeds. I've been wintersowing my zinnias for years, though there really isn't any advantage to sowing them before freezing temps are pretty much over. The containers do provide the advantage of more constant moisture, and might allow seeds to germinate a little earlier than directly sown seeds, since the medium in the containers probably warms up faster than the ground. What I don't know is whether the transplant process results in enough shock to offset the advantages provided by the containers when comparing to direct sown plants. If I think of it, I'll try to grow some matched controls. I've never direct sown seeds before, since I'm not reliable enough at watering the beds. They require dragging the hose quite a distance.

Martha

ZM - thanks for the suggestion. I never even thought of conduit pipe - silly me. I'll have to give it some thought as to where I could put it so we wouldn't trip over it. Am going to be giving the whole thing - shelters and feeding station - intensive thought this summer - there's got to be something better we can do. Right now we're in the thick of it; wouldn't be good to try relocating anything yet. Thank you again - it's a good idea.
Martha - just mailed you some seeds, and am excited about whatever you've got picked out for me! As I had recently stumbled on the wintersowing forum, and had decided to try some things, I decided I might as well try some zinnias as well. And as I have some crosses that I'd like to get 2 generations out of this season, I'll be starting some seeds late next month. But the bulk will be direct seeded. We'll just see, won't we, if the wintersowing gives any real headstart to the plants. This is going to be even more fun than last summer!
- Alex

Hi Martha,

" What I don't know is whether the transplant process results in enough shock to offset the advantages provided by the containers when comparing to direct sown plants. "

That is a question that can only be answered authoritatively by the kind of experiment you propose doing. Zinnias do suffer from the root loss that is inevitable in classic transplanting. They don't like to be dug up, because that inevitably leaves their fastest growing roots behind. Setting an indoor zinnia out into the garden brings all of its roots with it in the root ball that forms in the pot. The rootball falls out of the pot with all of its roots intact.

" I've never direct sown seeds before, since I'm not reliable enough at watering the beds. They require dragging the hose quite a distance. "

I think it would be easier, and much less labor, to become reliable at watering the beds, than to have to transplant each Winter Sown zinnia individually.

It is important to sprinkle the seed beds daily until the seedlings emerge, and for a few days thereafter until their roots have time to make good penetration into the deeper soil, which stays moist more dependably. Spring rains can do some of the sprinkling for you. To minimize hose dragging, I have a separate dedicated hose that I leave out in my zinnia garden. Since more than one hose is connected to the faucet at a time, we have one of those "Y" splitters that has a separate on-off lever for each leg of the Y. Activating the zinnia hose requires only moving its lever. I grow a lot of zinnias, and Winter Sowing is too labor-intensive for me.

ZM

Martha - likewise for me that I leave my hose system in place. I haul them out once in the spring; hook up 2 - 100 footers and a 50 footer together (my garden is in an old corral and somewhat removed from the house), and then the rest of the season I'm only repositioning the last hose as needed. But I realize that this might not be practical for you as, judging by the couple of pics I've seen, your butterfly garden is essentially in your front yard, and a hose lying around isn't all that attractive. Might I suggest, as I suggested to Squishy some while back, that if you direct seed, you prepare the bed ahead of time, soaking it thoroughly. Then when you plant your seed, throw a light covering of some sort of mulch over them - grass clippings, a bit of straw, something to keep the moisture in. It helps to cut down on the need to water as often.
- Alex

Hi Alex and Martha,

" ...your butterfly garden is essentially in your front yard, and a hose lying around isn't all that attractive. "

Some garden hoses have a patterned green color that is camouflaged fairly well when lying in lawn grass. I know, because I almost mowed into a "snake in the grass" hose that had settled down in the grass. The only thing that saved it was it had settled fairly deep in the grass and I wasn't mowing the grass real short.

Until I mowed, the hose was essentially invisible in the lawn. It might be possible to use a spade to open a slit in the lawn that would allow a hose to fit just under ground level, where it could be invisible and still allow for mowing the grass over it.

Some lawns have an underground watering system and sprinklers that pop up when an automatic timer sends water to their part of the overall underground network of water pipes. Something like that, but less elaborate, could be used to provide a water connection inside a front yard flower bed.

Alex,

You and I are going to have a very similar watering setup this year. For the last few years all I needed was a 100-foot 1-inch hose with a 60-foot 3/4-inch hose on the end. (The 60-foot hose was originally 75-feet, but some animal chewed several places in the hose so that I had to cut out 15 feet.) My new 40-foot garden extension has prompted me to add a second 100-foot 1-inch hose. Luckily, I found a "shopworn" 100-foot 1-inch hose in a local DIY store that had been marked down to just $50. so I snapped it up. I figure I saved at least $50 on that deal.

ZM

ZM - ha! We've mowed over our hoses, too. Sometimes we've been lucky, but not always. Our grass grows like a house on fire. Doesn't take any time at all for it to cover them.
Am thinking maybe I should invest in one more 50 footer to add to the end of the system - at a Y junction. Even less moving hoses around that way. More energy to put to some other endeavor. One of the unfortunate side effects of age: the necessity to ration ones energy.
- Alex

Alex: All good, I thought you were a guy too :P

ZM: I like that first flower than the second, its more scruffy-lookin, like hair that's cutely messy as opposed to straightened and boringly perfect.

I have a question for you more knowledgeable gardeners

How long can zinnia seedlings stay in little pots (they have a cross sectional area about the size of my palm) until they need to be put somewhere more permanent?

And can zinnias grow in mild winter? Is it just frost that kills them, or would the lack of sunlight and cooler temperatures spell disaster?

I'm wondering whether I should stick these in the garden or take them indoors

Although, now that I think about it, zinnias do grow quickly so I might actually be done with them before winter even comes

Thank you, ZM and Alex, for the irrigation suggestions. I have been gradually increasing my hose collection, and now have dedicated hoses for my sunny gardens. Unfortunately, the other part of the watering equation is my time and energy. I'm a hospice/palliative physician with two of my own teenagers and five step/foster kids that came with my husband and friends. So, regular watering falls to the bottom of the priorities list. Also, my garden is primarily native perennials, with annuals playing a partial and temporary role while the perennials get established. So, I'm not planting the numbers of plants that you are. I will try direct sowing this year, to compare the results to the wintersown seeds. Though I have a stack of clear plastic cups I've collected from my stops at the golden arches for smoothies. So, each seed may get it's own cup, which will decrease the root damage, compared to the typical style of wintersowing. Ah, scientific experimentation is so demanding of perfection and absolute control of every detail.

ZM, last year I asked you for your recommendation for a zinnia type that would maximize pollen and nectar production for my butterflies and other pollinators. You suggested the Zowie Yellow Flame, so I have three packs to plant. I'm glad I bought as many as I did, since they claim to include "approximately" 20 seeds per pack, and mine contained 17, 18, and 19 exactly. My plan is to pluck another zinnia and brush it gently across the Zowie and vice versa. Those blooms will be marked for harvest and possibly protected with a tulle drawstring bag.

I should probably think about which zinnia types I should attempt to cross. My current favorite zinnia is an offspring of either Purple Prince or Uproar Rose. I planted them the same year and they looked similar enough that I didn't bother to differentiate them in the seed saving process. I'm going to do a search to educate myself re the species names of all of these, but I'm also absolutely sure that ZM can spout the information off their top of his head. Keep up the good work.

Oh, Alex. Consider trying a heated birdbath to provide a water source for your cats. I just carry a fresh gallon out each morning and dump the old.

Martha

Hi Heather,

" I like that first flower more than the second, its more scruffy-lookin, like hair that's cutely messy as opposed to straightened and boringly perfect. "

It is my choice too, for the same reason that you expressed. One of the things that I dislike about many commercial zinnias is that their petals lie so close together, like shingles on a roof. It just looks too formal, and the closely lying petals provide a hiding place for bad insects, like aphids or thrips. I am also going for new zinnia flower forms, like this "Razzle Dazzle" type.

That is one of my currently blooming indoor specimens, and it is about 20% larger than my previous specimens of that type. They still need much more size increase, and I am working toward that goal.

" How long can zinnia seedlings stay in little pots (they have a cross sectional area about the size of my palm) until they need to be put somewhere more permanent? "

They can stay in little pots up until blooming time, but that is not good for them. As soon as they become root-bound, they need to be repotted. If you have clear pots like I use, you can see the roots start to crowd the side of the pot. If your pot is opaque, you can use this criterion: In the open ground a zinnias root system is at least as extensive as its top development. So if the visible part of your zinnia plant is significantly larger than the pot, it will appreciate being repotted.

" And can zinnias grow in mild winter? Is it just frost that kills them, or would the lack of sunlight and cooler temperatures spell disaster? "

It is not just frost that kills zinnias in the Fall. Cooler temperatures and shorter days cause zinnias to lose their vigor and become susceptible to Powdery Mildew and other foliage diseases. Sometimes disease effectively kills them before a frost. I spray my high value breeders with a systemic fungicide in the Fall, but just allow the others to succumb. After I harvest their green seeds or brown seeds I just pull up the plant and send it to the landfill. I don't compost zinnias, because that seems to spread disease.

" I'm wondering whether I should stick these in the garden or take them indoors. Although, now that I think about it, zinnias do grow quickly so I might actually be done with them before winter even comes. "

Yes. Wait and see. However, bringing a zinnia indoors from outdoors runs the risk of bringing one or more pests indoors with it, where in the absence of natural enemies, their population can explode. Good luck. And pictures are welcome.

ZM

Hi Martha,

" ...So, regular watering falls to the bottom of the priorities list. "

They do sell timers that will automatically turn the water on and turn the water off at a preset schedule that you choose. I'm not saying that you should choose that option, but am just calling attention to its availability.

" You suggested the Zowie Yellow Flame, so I have three packs to plant. I'm glad I bought as many as I did, since they claim to include "approximately" 20 seeds per pack, and mine contained 17, 18, and 19 exactly. "

That is a good motive for saving your own seeds from your Zowie Yellow Flames. F1 hybrid zinnia seeds can be very expensive on a per seed basis.

" My plan is to pluck another zinnia and brush it gently across the Zowie and vice versa. "

You can do much less violence to your zinnias by plucking just the pollen florets and brushing them gently on the stigmas of the female zinnias. Tweezers, Twissors, or forceps are handy for picking and manipulating a pollen floret. You might already have a pair of Kelly forceps that would work just fine.

" I should probably think about which zinnia types I should attempt to cross. ...I'm going to do a search to educate myself re the species names of all of these... "

You probably want to stay with just one species, Zinnia violacea (which is still frequently referred to as Zinnia elegans.)

" Keep up the good work. "

I plan to. But for me, it is more fun than work.

ZM

Heather - yeah, as ZM says, you could bring in pests if you try bringing the zinnias back in. It's what happened to me when I brought in a geranium from outside - my poor Alpha and Beta were taken out by thrips. You probably have thrips down there in NZ. Nasty little buggers.

Martha - I considered the heated birdbath idea, but it was a matter of the exposed cord that worried me (chewing animals). ZM has made an excellent suggestion what to do about that; I'll have to work on it.

ZM - another of your mango-colored beauties. Do love that color.
Today I checked baby Groot and saw that his roots were peeking out of the bottom of the pot, so he got repotted. I've decided at least part of his problem was that he wasn't getting all the spectrum of light he needed since I'd moved him down under one of those new energy efficient lights. So I had moved him under one of the T8 fluorescents, and I think it's helped.

- Alex

Hi everyone,

Well, Houzz is making improvements to our forum environment. We can now italicize or bold or bold italicize our text by highlighting it and hitting the appropriate button(s) at the bottom of our editing window.

And we can present larger pictures by using the Link button to link to a URL for the larger picture. For example, to see a larger picture in a new window. simply click on this link to a large picture of one of my current Razzle Dazzle zinnias. As before, you can improve the view by hitting the F11 key to temporarily remove your browsers menu bars at the top of the screen. To get your browser controls back, hit the F11 key again. Depending on how you have set your browser's zoom setting, you may need to use a horizontal scroll bar and/or a vertical scroll bar to see all of the picture. You can adjust your browsers zoom setting by hitting Ctrl + or Ctrl - . More later.

ZM

(Thanks Houzz)

OK - so let me see if I've got this straight...soybean fields in January 2015

That time it worked! I used the one labeled "Direct link" and it went straight to Photobucket.

Oh, and I see the bold and italics worked, too. Thanks, Houzz. Now...how about font color?

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I see you have figured out how to link directly to a Photobucket picture. Cool. And that allows you to show Photobucket pictures that are wider than Houzz's 500-pixel rule. Nice.

" Thanks, Houzz. Now...how about font color? "

Yes, color would be good. And specifying the font face would be good, and allowing a bump up in font size would be good. And I still prefer the narrower newspaper column effect that blockquote provided. But Houzz is llistening and have already made big improvements. I really haven't figured out how to benefit from the List buttons, for the following reasons :

1. I usually don't think of things in terms of lists.
2. Lists tend to give a pedantic "textbook" feel to communication.
3. Lists have the flavor of David Letterman's late show "top ten" lists.
4. I usually can't think of all the things that should go in a list while I am in the "List" mode

It takes a little learning curve to get into and out of the "List" mode in this message editor. But that isn't a valid reason for not using a List button.

It's cold again here, but I am enjoying my indoor zinnia gardening. More later.

ZM

1. Not sure I'm following what you mean by lists. Oh, I see - they have buttons for lists after the Italics button. Still don't know what that's supposed to mean.

2. OK - now I see. That's a trifle bizarre...I mean, unless you're actually making a list of something, why would you want that?

3. Just changed it to "unordered list" and the numbers become bullets. Interesting.

4. Still very cold here, but it didn't reach the minus 13 they predicted - it said minus 7 on our new digital thermometer. (John decided I needed something that might actually be telling me what the REAL temperature was, instead of making a guesstimate between the two regular thermometers I had). Pretty sure this one is accurate.

5. - Alex (decided to switch back to the numbers - that's makes me 5th in line.)

I've sorted out a nice sunny patch of garden for the zinnias, just in case I decide to plant them there. If the weather starts getting plant-unfriendly by the time the zinnias are too big for their pots I'll just repot them instead. :)
Feels good to have a plan!

Razzle dazzles are weird-lookin.

Cool though :)

I like your flowers ZM

And thank you, and also Alex, for the advice!

Hi everyone,

Since this message thread has gotten so long, we are continuing it over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 31

I hope to see you all over there.

ZM