Just found out that the blackberry is called Sawtooth...the initial search doesn't really sound good for these plants ? anyone know about them? still waiting for the name of the raspberry.

Rjinga:

Boy, this sounds like a pig in the poke to me. First off, "wild" and "cultivated" are two different things, so "wild cultivated" is a contradiction in terms. Berry plants gathered in the wild and brought under cultivation are still wild varieties. In most cases, wild berries are far inferior to cultivated varieties, though people do like to pick wild berries because they are free. But if you resell plants like this to unsuspecting customers, they are likely to be very unhappy with you.

Before paying anyone for plants of unknown provenance, I would make sure I had seen them in their active, growing and producing stage. The price won't be right if they turn out to be a big disappointment.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

These were from an ebay auction...I have had regular email communication with this person, they are from New York/New Jersey area.

"To supplement our aquatic plant auctions, we purchased a large supply of cultivated ,wild variety, black ,blue and raspberry plants. These are prolific berry producers, good up to zone 6."

He actually changed the zone info to include up to zone 9.

Rjinga:

Buying plants like this off E-Bay is like ordering from a very bad mailorder nursery, multiplied by ten. You will not know what you are getting until you grow them out.

"Good up to zone 6" does not tell you much. Does he mean zone 6 and colder, or zone 6 and warmer? Either way, it makes no sense.

If you want to sell berry plants and have the land to propagate them, you can begin producing large numbers of plants in about 2 years, assuming good soil and growing conditions. I grow the heat-tolerant Baba red raspberry, and if I wanted to I could produce hundreds of suckers every year. That berry is out of patent and could be legally sold.

The Triple Crown and Doyle thornless blackberries that I grow can produce dozens of tiprooted plants every season. I pull them up and throw them out, but they could be sold if I wanted to do that. These are excellent, high-production berries that would make anyone happy, and neither are now patented.

If you are going to resell caneberries, don't start with inferior stock.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi Rjinga-

You definitely want to listen to Don. He knows what he's talking about.

Maybe you want to take a look at the Nourse website (link below) or some other reputable nurseries. They're my favorite place to buy berries, and I've never heard a bad thing about them. I would spend a significant amount of time investigating all the varieties and see which ones would work best in your area.

When you buy the plant as bare-root, they really aren't all that expensive, really. When you consider the time it takes to grow something, you really want to make sure you planted the right variety to begin with. In my mind, the time investment is much more significant than the monetary investment... and that's especially true with bare-root plants.

I believe Doyle is still patented, so I'd have to call the police on you Don. :-)

-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: Nourse Farms

Glenn:

The name "Doyle" is trademarked, but the plant itself has been out of patent for a good number of years. Patents expire, but trademarks do not, so while you could propagate and sell the plants, you would have to call them something other than Doyle or you might risk a lawsuit. You can sell a toasted oat cereal that looks and tastes just like Cherrios, but you can't call them Cherrios.

In fact this very thing happened a few years back, when Doyle plants were being sold as "Overflow". Somehow, the original patent holders regained control, and I don't see Overflow offered for sale any more. It's a murky business, and all about control and PR. But the Doyle, Overflow, or whatever you want to call it, is still the most productive blackberry by far, in terms of gallons per plant. I could start selling them as the "Jellyman", but they would probably put a hit man on me.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I also agree with Don here and I'd step far, far away from this ebay auction. It doesn't really sound like this person knows what he is selling. In addition to possible patent/trademark infringement, you also should make sure that plants you are selling are disease free. Who knows what the disease status is of this person's plants.

Don, I say go ahead and start selling Doyle as "Jellyman". I'm all for patents and such given that they pump money back in to university plant breeding programs that are struggling to survive financially, but I think these folks have overstepped their bounds a bit, especially considering the outrageous price they charge for plants and how their advertising says they are the "only legal source" for Doyle plants.

Thanks for the clarification Don. I was hoping to catch you on something, but alas no luck. Like fruitgirl pointed out, I was mislead by their "only legal source" text, and when I couldnÂt find anyone else selling them, I bought into it. I too am wondering why nobody else is selling Overflow, etc. Because they arenÂt, normally IÂd be wary of the hype except that youÂve confirmed it. At $20 a pop for just tissue culture plants, IÂd certainly welcome another source. IÂm looking for 2 for this spring. So, do you have any DoyÂ. opps Jellyman blackberries lying that you want to sell this spring? I did some searching around, but really, all I found was the link below which talks a little about the reasons of why they moved production back to Indiana. The article is mostly marketing though.

Apologies to Rjinga for the hijack.

-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: DOYLES THORNLESS BLACKBERRIES BACK HOME AGAIN IN INDIANA (page 12)

Fruitgirl:

If I were a little more entrepreneurial I might start selling the Jellyman, and I have mailed out dozens of plants for free to people over the years. But I find packing the plants and running up to the post office to mail them out to be a royal pain, and not something I want to get into as a business. A business model would also involve issues of payment, taxes, etc., plus the fact that I have only a total of about 30 feet of Doyles; not enough to really support a business.

For Glenn:
I originally purchased 4 tissue culture Doyle plants from Severtsen back in the early '90s, and they were expensive even then, and airshipped which made it worse. But all four survived and prospered, so I don't feel cheated. I think the four cost me a total of about $90. That was when the plants were still under patent, but I am pretty sure the patent expired before 1995.

The clever individual who started selling them as "Overflow" figured this out, but he had to contend with the fact that the U.S. economy is all about brands, and he could not establish the new name as a brand to rival Doyle. I suspect the Doyle family bought him out in an out-of-court settlement in which the lawyers got most of the money. If you look carefully at the circle at the end of the Doyle name, you will see it encloses a little "R". That means "registered", and refers to a trademark, not a patent. I would face the same problem in establishing the "Jellyman" as a brand.

Too bad you didn't ask me about the Doyles when I was cleaning up the berries in late October, and threw out at least 2 dozen tiprooted plants with big mops of roots. I do hate to send things out, but a few exceptions can be made.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Some of the Rubus family are highly invasive buggers. The Himalaya and Evergreen blackberries are noxious weeds up here, and a few Asiatic types are also causing problems in Hawaii.
Then also there are some virus problems back east that ruin fruit set and you may be bringing some problems from the wild.
It is worth the $ to get reliable stock from Reputable Nurseries, and with Rubus, I'd go to a nursery that specializes in Cane fruits, Like Sakuma Bro's in Burlington, WA

Here is a link that might be useful: Sakuma Brothers

Thanks Don-
For the $40, I'm sure the 2 plants will be worth it. I'm just cheap. :-) If they work out for me as well as they have for you, I think I'll take some tip-roots and spread them around my property anyway. Agreed, a trip to the postoffice is never fun!
-Glenn

Aw, heck Don, I was just joking about you selling Doyle as Jellyman! :)

Hey Jellyman, can you tell me of a good place to buy Baba? Or is anyone else growing them that would sell me some?? I will keep looking around. I did find out that the name of the raspberry he is selling is called Black Hawk, and I emailed someone who got his plants before, the guy wrote back saying he was in landscaping and they were healthy plants, he has had no problems with them at all. I have decided to opt out of the blackberry purchase and will get blueberry and raspberries instead. IF They are junk, I"m not out too much. And I"ve asked him to provide documentation of where thy originally came from.

Rjinga:

I have lots of Babas out there creeping out of their assigned space. If you could stop by, you could take several dozen. However, if you e-mail with your mailing address, I will send you a half-dozen, but I will be grumpy about it. There will be no charge.

Frutgirl: I should have known you were funning me, but now that I know you have a dry sense of humor it will not work again.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA
don.yellman@webformation.com

Don, that is a very kind offer..I hate the idea of you feeling grumpy, but I'd really love to have these plants sooooooooo, maybe I can get over it? (and you too ;)

Is there any chance in your area that you can schedule a pick up for the post office to come to you and pick up a package? I could look into that for you if that would help. I know it can be done, the only problem is that you would have to know the postage ahead of time, so you'd have to be able to weigh it, measure it etc. I would want to send the postage to you, by the way.

Unless you are in a remote area, I do think that you can go online to USPS and set up a pickup :)

Well again, thanks for your kind and generous offer let me know how you would like to proceed. I'll try emailing you through here with my address. (GA to VA is a bit too long of a road trip, even for wonderful berry plants!!)

PS: would you be interested in some nice amaryllis bulbs? I could send some to you as a trade offering. And I will not be grumpy in the least doing so :)

Rjinga:

It's very cold right now, but send me an E with your address so I have it when it warms up a little. I will send you mine because I am interested in amaryllis bulbs. I have a greenhouse and like amaryllis very much.

There is nothing to be done about my being grumpy. It's a permanent condition.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Jellyman/All-
Update: I just ordered 2 Doyle blackberries. I had tried using their website, but kept getting an "ActiveX error" at checkout, so I called them on the phone. I asked them if $20 was for tissue cultured plants. She said, "No, they are actually good sized potted plants". I'm happy to hear that as I don't yet have any experience with TC plants. And, $20 is a lot for a TC plant, but not really for a good sized potted plant. We'll see how they look when they arrive. Thanks, -Glenn

Glen: Doyle and TC are not the same. I think you bought not what you wanted.

levadia, I suspect glenn used TC as an abbreviation for "tissue culture," not "Triple Crown."

Ahhh, yes, an abbreviation with two possible meanings. Yep, I meant Tissue-Cultured. Higher up in the post we were saying that $20 for a TC (tissue cultured) plant was a lot. Coincidently, I also ordered some TC (Triple Crown) blackberries at Nourse yesterday.
-Glenn

Glenn:

You will soon be picking a lot of blackberries. So many, in fact, that you may think about blackberry wine. I made 10 gallons one year from pure juice -- no water at all -- and, while I am not really a skilled winemaker, the result was very, very good.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don, did the results get "gooder and gooder" the longer you drank? ;)

My mother in law made some wine from scuppenogs aka muscadines, and oh boy was it ever good, sooooo sweet, I loved it. It was actually like drinking liquer (spelling). Blackberry wine sounds DIVINE :)

HEY DON, when we gonna get together for our trade, email me..I have these bulbs for you, ready to go and am itching to get some of the baba's...let me know.

mmmm.... The girls and I can seem to make a meal out of our berries (just keep on eating them and eating them!), but I really do like wine. Blackberry wine sounds great. I do have quite a bit experience in homebrewing. Can't wait to try blackberry wine! -Glenn

Has anyone compared the yields on the new Prime-Jim and Prime-Jan varieties from U of Arkansas? They sound like they would give Doyle a run for it's money. Fruit quality is not so good though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Prime-Ark Primocane - Fruiting Blackberries

Hi guys,
Love this thread, I just ordered 5 Doyle's a few weeks ago.
Just had to try them, no matter the cost, just to see if the claims are close to true. Gardeners are gamblers and it's only money.
Waiting for spring
Jake