what a predicament!

Be persistent with your city resources. Is there an ombudsman office? Or an office of neighborhood services? Perhaps you might speak with your elected city representative to see what can be done.

How about a neighborhood civic club? You may need to enlist the help of other neighbors...

Or as a last resort, find an attorney.

Communal post boxes have always struck me as a bad idea and this is one of the reasons. I live where individual delivery still survives, and people should lobby to have this back. But I digress.

Sounds more like the neighbours did this than the post office. So, under cover of darkness, just go lean the mailboxes up against their cars. Or someone else's. OK I'm sort of kidding, but in other words my guess is that the post office wasn't consulted before they paved their drives. Jackhammers can be used to put holes in concrete, so this need not be considered irreversible.

Your focus should continue to be on finding out who is responsible for making this decision, and then ensuring that no one is scapegoated, not just that you are not scapegoated. The point is not to retain your gardening freedom, but for everyone to retain control over the property they own. Maybe the PO can be forced to purchase a piece of someone's property to locate their box.

In finding the right person I always start at the top, as I don't consider it my job to navigate through the organizational chart. Your elected rep. may be a good place, or the senior postal official for your state or county. Think of it this way: the more senior a person knows about your dilemma, the more likely it is that the organization will not repeat the mistake.

Did you call your local post office? Not the 800 number? Try the local one for a better answer. And I would get the boxes off your property asap. Find out where the right-of way is on your street. The city may "own" farther into your front yard than you realize. Check your deed for easements. If the mailman can't get to the box easily, he doesn't have to delilver. Knew someone who wans't getting their mail. Here, his neigbor was coming home at lunch and parking his car in front of my friend's mailbox. This is in a subdivision, houses fairly close together. Since the mailman couldn't lean out of his little truck but would have to had gotten out of his vehicle, he was within his rights to refuse to deliver. Seems they could save gas by parking mail truck in one spot and walking.

Thanks, all, for the thoughts and suggestions. I have set the four uprooted mailboxes back on the other side of the property line. The reason I called the 1-800 number is that it is the only number listed in the phone book for all the local branches of the USPS. They won't let you call the local branches directly... though I may be paying them a visit!

Technically, the area right by the street where mailboxes go is public property. I just maintain it in the form of a flowerbed and, presently, 4 mailboxes. However, just because it isn't my property, I don't see why my desire to grow flowers on the right-of-way in front of my property is trumped by my neighbors' desire to use the right-of-way in front of their houses for extra parking & driveway.

I agree, they may not have actually gotten permission to do this, and I will try to politely discourage it.

I just wish I could get someone with authority to spell out exactly what one's rights are here... and whether they really got permission or not. Maybe I'd like to move all 8 boxes down the street to another neighbor's yard! Just kidding...

And, unfortunately, we do have individual delivery. I don't like communal mailboxes, either, but it might look better than 8 individual mailboxes, all with posts, all squeezed together in front of my house. My little neighborhood is experiencing growing pains.

Have you tried looking on the usps.gov site? There's a link there to find a contact number for your local post office.

One of the more interesing items on the site says this:

"Important: Before installing, moving or replacing your mailbox or mailbox support, you will need to contact your local Post Office."
Do you think those people did that?

The concrete shouldn't be a problem that a cement drill bit and the right hardware can't fix.

Have you talked to the people who had the cement work done?

rainlily asks ".... does the postal service have the right...". This is the central issue to be considered.

At some point the property of rainlily becomes street right-of-way. Since the authority over the land changes at that point it is important to know whether the proposed new location for the boxes is on rainlily or street right-of-way.

A governmental entity or any private person does not have authority to enter fee simple owned land to construct anything. They may aquire a right such as an easement through negotiation with the owner. In the case of government, the power of eminient domain may be used to take a right, but the owner is entitled to be compensated for the taking.

The post office may tell people to place their mail box on your land and they won't receive mail if they don't. This does not confer a right to enter your land and do so. It is a well established principle of law that one may not convey a right in land that one does not have. Where the post office has no right, they may not convey a non-existing right to others.

If the proposed location for the boxes is on street right-of-way, things get a bit more murky. It is common for the right-of-way to extend some distance beyond the driving surface of the roadway. In most cases mailboxes are located on this strip of right-of-way.

The authority over road right-of -ways differs depending on the how the public acquired the right to use. In rare instances the strip for the road was purchased outright and the government is the fee simple owner. Adjoining land owners have no authority over the street whatsoever. The government may permit or do anything they choose.

There are two more common ways that the public acquires an interest in a roadway. First, where the public makes use of ones property for a long period of time as a road, the owner loses the right to object to such use and a perscriptive easement for the road is established. Here the roadway exists under the principle of estoppel.

From findlaw.com ....

equitable estoppel:
an estoppel that prevents a person from adopting a new position that contradicts a previous position maintained by words, silence, or actions when allowing the new position to be adopted would unfairly harm another person who has relied on the previous position to his or her loss

estoppel by silence:
an estoppel preventing a person from making an assertion to another's disadvantage when the person previously had the opportunity and duty to speak but failed to do so

A landowner who stands silent as a roadway or utilities are constructed is thereafter bound to that silence. But this does not divest one of the ownership of the land the road occupies and the owner retains a right to object to any new use or expansion of an existing use. Where mailboxes have not been allowed in the past, a landowner may object to them, even though they be within the roadway.

A second common method for the creation of a roadway is that of a formal dedication. Here the landowner, wishing to have a public access along or through his property, conveys a portion to public use. Such a dedication must be in writing. It may be in the form of an easement deed, or may be shown on a recorded plat.

A street dedication does not divest a landowner of his ownership, but grants to the public an easement for the uses associated with roadways. When an owner conveys property adjoining a roadway, he also conveys any retained intrest in the roadway though the deed not mention it. Your deed and survey may stop at the right-of way, but your ownership continues into the road to the extent that any predesessor in title held.

In most states a street dedication will encompass a driving surface and utilities such as water, sewer, and telephone. Whether courts view postal service in the same light as a utility common to roadways may differ from state to state. Here it is imposible to say if the postal service has the power to authorize a mailbox on the righr-of-way in front of your property without a study of the case law of the particular state.

"In rare instances the strip for the road was purchased outright and the government is the fee simple owner." In Ohio, ODOT has started buying the land out right. Easier than easements.

Every state has different lawas of easements and R-O-w.

Good info pls8xx

pls8xx- Excellent discussion of what seems to be the case- the post office can put the boxes wherever they want, as long as it's in the right-of-way. Even if it inconveniences you for the sake of your neighbor's convenience.

My situation got resolved, thanks to some passive-aggressive behaviour (pointedly moving mailboxes back to their property) and tactful discussion. I don't think they really had permission to do that.

It still gripes me that I couldn't get a firm answer from the PO as to whether THOSE PARTICULAR neighbors had permission to move mailboxes. My conversations with the PO went like this:

"My neighbors moved their boxes."
"It's illegal to move PO boxes without permission."
"So they didn't have permission?"
"Well, if they moved them, they must have had permission, since it's illegal to move mailboxes."

To those of you who live in the 'burbs, this must seem like a tempest in a teapot, but on a tiny lot, all gardening space is precious.

Thanks, all, for the discussion.

pls8xx- Re-reading your discussion for about the fifth time, I finally realized you are saying that, depending on the state, I may have the right to object to any new uses of the right-of-way, such as more mailboxes. But I'd probably have to hire a lawyer to do the research.

Thank goodness it got worked out. I was out watering the tiny disputed strip this morning around 7 when a drunk guy wandered down the street with a can in a paper bag. I was ignoring him when he staggered over and said "You have a lovely garden." That made my day. The neighbors may find my little garden a waste of perfectly good potential parking, but the neighborhood drunk guys like it!

It always nice to get praise for hard work.

tibs,
Down here we are also seeing ROWs that are an outright buy, mostly for highways. It gives government a much better control to highway access. With just an easement it is harder to limit the number of access points a landowner uses or where he places them.

But government gives up another feature if they own the ROW, which is more of a problem for cities. A city can't pass a law commanding a citizen to show up at City Hall and clean the bathrooms. In the same way they can't order a citizen to maintain city owned ROW like they can if the citizen is the owner and the city only has an easement. If the ROW is wholly city owned, an adjoining landowner has no responsibility for it's maintenance. If the landowner installs a sidewalk he may be required to maintain it, but if the city builds the walk, it's their property, their problem. The city can hope the landowner will mow the ROW, but if he doesn't, the city has the problem. I don't look for cities to make fee simple buys of ROW any time soon.

I hope nobody took anything I've had to say as legal advice. It was given as only a starting point for assessing one's rights for the situation. For myself, if the ROW is an easement, either by perscriptive use or formal dedication, I claim ownership of the ROW, subject to the easement use, and object to others' use of it until someone can show legal authority superior to my right to reject the unwanted use.

The postal service does not own or install mailboxes where I live. They are installed by homeowners, but must conform to postal service regulations regarding placement options, accessibility, and size. When my post office sent me a letter last year stating that they would no longer deliver the mail to the box on the front porch because I had no sidewalk leading to the porch (after delivering it for 170 years with no walk) I was given the option of putting a box on a post out by the street in the easement, or installing a sidewalk. I went for the walk.

I suspect your neighbors moved the boxes without permission and were hoping to install them on your property to suit themselves. As long as they conform to postal regulations, the post office doesn't really care if they're an inconvenience to you or not. I'm glad you were able to resolve it without too much trouble.

So pls8xx, if the public enttny buys the land out right they have to maintain it. How did I miss this aspect? Am involved in project where the state is buying land to widen a road. Much of what they are buying they already own as an easement. Most of it is "landscaped' by the owners and will not be removed for the project. I wonder if the people will continue to maintain it, be allowed to maintain it, or if the state will just mow it twice a year. Hmmm. I am going to have to ask the the state guys and bounce this one off an attorney's head.

tibs,

Down here I would bet that the state doesn't call attention to the difference between easement and ownership, allowing (grin) the landowner to do the maintenance. That is, til he starts to change the grade, install some hardscape like a brick flowerbed edge, plant trees that block sight, or develope a new point of road access. Then watch how fast the state moves to set him straight.

It would be interesting to know how they see things up your way.

I'm glad that you approached this situation early, and head-on. Don't let your neighbors walk all over you just because it was in their best interest.
We had a mailbox problem several years ago. This is a group of 30 homeowners-2 associations. The #1 association, lots are 2 1/2 acres with bigger dues and we own only to the ditches, road is community property there. The #2 older group owns 5+ acres, and own to the middle of the road and only pays for actual road maintenance. So when the community mailbox structure needed replacing (paid by group #1, as they have it localed on their community property by the main road)because of kids with baseball bats. I said 'let's get them at the driveways and in the future everyone would be responsible for their own". The homeowners said, "oh the post office won't let us do that'. I spoke to the post office who balked at the idea, but I told her that on our last private road we all had driveway delivery and since this is a federal program, what was the problem. She then backed down and said we must follow the guidelines and have everyone sign a paper as being responsible for installation & maintenance-not a problem. I spent several weeks, getting a signature for all the currently built homes. Only 5 people, in #2 area who were not paying for this change anyway, gave us a problem because they could not agree on placement, because of buried utility lines, & a end of road turn around. I finally told them since they could not agree they could all get post office boxes for their mail, since the current structure that they did not pay for anyway, was being torn down. They finally came up with a solution. The other was a guy who couldn't decide where to put it on the left or right of his driveway-afraid he would knock it down--and he did within the first week (his own replacement)!! It was amazing that even with this new convience not everyone helped to install the boxes at their own home-a committee did it. This also took care of everyone complaining to everyone else to get rid of the hornets at the gang mailbox-everyone must police their own for hornets and do their own show shoveling, or not receive mail. Any new homes being built do their own thing. The newspaper deliver complained when he heard about the change, paper boxes under the mailbox on a post, and after listening to him rant that he could not reach the boxes from his truck (and what if he then bought a car?), I told him I would take care of it, and would have all the homeowners cancell their subscription--delivery continued without a problem.
So TALK to people directly in authogity, with respect and ask for written information. Be firm and be willing to compromise if necessary, and stand up for your self.