That sounds like a lot of work for an imprecise result. Are you sure you couldn't simply shop around for a more reasonably priced product? Not to jump on the Foliage Pro bandwagon, but even though it seems expensive, you use so little (one teaspoon to a gallon of water) that it really isn't expensive to use. Just something to think about.

Sandy - I read your post this AM, and I thought 'holy smoke', this is going to take some time, so I waited to reply until I had more of it (time). Rather than bombard you with a whole bunch of information you may not even want, I'll make some statements w/little explanation, with the understanding that if you want help, I'm offering it, and will go into as much detail as you can stand. ;o) Don't take what I'm saying as being brash or critical - just a frank opinion than can be ignored or could serve as a lead-in to more meaningful discussion.

* I think that if you can't find or can't afford Bloombooster fertilizers, it's a good thing - from your plant's perspective. Except under extremely unusual circumstances, it's going to be very difficult for anyone to make a case for a benefit in using any fertilizer that has more P than either N or K. 1:1:1 fertilizers are already high-P fertilizers because plants use about 6x as much N as P.

* Trying to use the meals you describe in any fashion to get all the nutrients to your plants they require will be exceedingly difficult. I think you're making things more difficult for yourself, and probably building frustration into your growing experience in the switch to organic soil amendments as nutrient sources. I do understand if personal ideology dictates you must travel that road, but it's not an easy one.

* Limiting N instead of applying more P is a better way to promote blooming.

* By far, the most efficient pathway for nutrients into plants is the root system. Foliar feeding is a very distant second, and works only marginally in a low % of plants and practically speaking, not at all in others. If you can see a benefit from foliar feeding containerized plants, there is probably an issue with nutrient levels/ratios in the soil solution.

Al

Me thinks you are making this harder than necessary, Sandy.

If some one canceled my favorite fertilizer in a big container, I would look for a deal on multiples of the next size down. Another tactic I would employ is to find what was available in big containers of a differernt blend or from a differnt vendor, and just add some N or P or K to make it close to what I had. And you have that.

(I like Azomite as a single solution for micro/trace additive)

Organics in containers can be challenging I hear. I am not up to that at this time- Organics in garden or SFG-OK.

I look for the easy solution before getting into harder activities, I am getting older and have less time for these things, not more. but thats just me.

d

Thanks, everybody, for the replies. I don't know why, but I am now more confused.

What do you all use to fertilize your containers? I don't really care if it's organic or not. Just give me some brand names to look for, and I'll go from there. Most of the containers have Al's mix in them, but the impatiens in particular just seem to be doing very poorly.

I had to have the different meals for when I planted my roses in the spring (put in the planting hole in the ground during planting). I'll try to find other uses for them.

Thanks!

Sandy

Not all, but many of us, including me, are using mostly soluble fertilizers in the 3:1:2 RATIO. 'Ratio' is different than %s. These numbers represent the %s of NP&K in some popular fertilizers: 24-8-16, 12-4-8, 9-3-6, all of which are 3:1:2 RATIOS.

Look for Miracle-Gro (MG) or Peters 24-8-16 in a box labeled all-purpose fertilizer. Look for MG 12-4-8 in a yellow jug. Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 is what I would recommend as your 'go to' fertilizer for most plants, but it's a little hard to find & you might have to order over the net if you decide to go with that.

If there's something that still confuses you, don't be bashful about asking.

Al

Since you ask what others are using, I use both a timed release fertilizer added into the potting mix at planting time, and Foliage Pro weekly added at watering time. Both fertilizers are the same NPK ratios with minors. I buy the timed release fertilizer in 50lb bags from a landscape or farm supply at a little over a dollar per pound. The FP I buy mail order, so far, in the one gallon size. I am considering also using Proteck (sp?)for my propagation plants to get stronger stems. Al

I use Schultz All purpose Water soluble 24-8-16 diluted, (Was on sale, not partial to brands YET) weekly - about 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gallon container equivalent, with 1 tablespoon kelp food per gallon fertilizer water.

I used 10-10-10 till flowers developed.

For micro/trace nutrients, I use 1 teaspoon Azomite monthly. (local Rocky Mtn product)

(tomatoes mainly in 3:1:1 Bark:Perlite:Sta-Green potting mix)

containers - 3 gal to 15 gallon.

I only do the container water flushing once a week. Daily check for moisture level, add only enough water for significant moisture. (I dont like The faster draining 5:1:1, it looses nutrients and water too fast for me, but the range of watering error was a little high with 3:1:1 and younger plants)

This is my first year doing containers the smart way, instead of the blind luck way. Not sure I have found my sweet spot for how things are done, but things are working well except for the lack of fruit- Rocky Mtn cool nites (47-52F) at work here.

My Sta-green has moisture control and some fertilizer in it.

I am currently using Espoma Rose Tone and Plant Tone. They are granular, organic fertilizers available at Home Depot.

Okay, you said don't be bashful, so here goes again...

Why do the supposed "experts" make all these high P formulas to promote blooming if it's better to limit N instead? Is this a controversial topic?

I understand the ratio thing, and I will look for formulas that stick to that ratio. I read a review on epinions, though, on Foliage Pro, that said it was good for growing nice green foliage, but not for promoting blossoms. What do you think of that statement?

Where do you all find Foliage Pro for the best price?

Lastly, before I go buy anything, I am thinking about using up some regular Miracle Gro and another water soluble fertilizer much like the MG. The MG is 23-19-17 and the other one is 15-30-15. If I mix the two together, would I end up with 19-25-16? If that's indeed what I have, it is obviously NOT a 3-1-2 ratio, but would it be bad to use it? Once it's used up, I can find the Foliage Pro and use that. I just hate wasting anything.

Oops, one more thing...I do use your container mix, Al. I started last summer with my hosta collection. I like it except that it drains so quickly that it doesn't seem to hold moisture like I wish it would. I have to water very frequently in hot weather. Would it be a bad thing to put a tray under each of my pots to catch and hold some of the run off water, so the container can sit in it for awhile instead of letting it run all over the ground?

I know these are newbie questions, but I still have a lot to learn. I'm ALWAYS learning here thanks to you all! Thanks for your patience.

Sandy

I am with you about not wasting stuff. Water, money, fertilizer, time.

Kind of depends where one is in life- People working for a living with family demands need to trade what little time they have at the expense of a little extra money. Some Retirees look to trade some of their extra time for saving a few dollars.

Some people have lots of space to store 10 different 3cubic foot bags of this and that. Some are in Apartments and even a garage space costs $250+/month

Others look at the looong term expense of things... ie Total cost of ownership versus initial costs.

But We all want nice looking healthy plants on our own set of priorities.

On the topic of what the manufacturers make... they make what sells and they can turn a profit on, same for retailers. NOT what is best for what we are doing.

I am not a big backer of Foliage Pro for my use, mainly due to costs and am more of a DIYer 'Red Green' type.
HOWEVER, if someone wants a nice Garden, has no time or skill, but has a decent budget, Foliage Pro could help them .. It is a complete proven proven one step fertilizer blend.

my two watts worth

d

Sandy,
if you're looking for Foliage Pro, check with any nursery that carries Dyna Gro products.
Usually they'll order it for you. I have been quoted $20 for 32 oz. as a reference.

If that fails, look for a Hydroponic shop.

Josh

Pond, Sorry for asking..

But what makes you think that the numbers being that high will benefit your plants health?
In your mind, do you think that maybe your plants will grow faster and bigger if so? That was my mind set.
If a fertilizer has numbers of 100 200 100 , would you buy it? I would of back before I came here..
Correct me if I am wrong, but I ahve learned that a plant will only use a certain amount of fertilizer and the rest not utilized, wasted, could quite possibly cause damage to your plants in the long wrong..Here is an excert from a post from Al..

"Oh, sure your fertilizer is close enough to the ratio. Plants tend to take what they need and leave the rest, but keeping the 'rest' at a minimal level is helpful, which is why I use primarily 3:1:2 ratios to begin with. Because it supplies nutrients in (very nearly) the same ratio in which plants use them, it allows you to maintain nutrient levels at the lowest levels (of TDS/EC) without nutritional shortages, which is a great benefit. It's good to remember that 'extra' anything in the soil can be as bad as a deficiency, so there are many facets to fertilizing other than just "feeding" something to your plants"

This is why Foilage pro and the other fertilizers with RATIOS of 3.1.2 are recomended.
I have seen many people overdose on HIGH numbered vitamins so that the vitamins became toxic to the body. I am afraid the same can be true of plants, even if the salts alone left behind from those type fertilizers can be toxic too..Just my thoughts. Correct me if I am wrong anyone..

I have lost too many plants to fertilizers with such high middles numbers, especially to bloom boosters, in many forms from many side effects..

I would just use the fertilizers in right ratios as suggested by Al, and consider not using the high middle number ones..That is just me. I wouldn't take chances on causing future problems on my plants that will eventually manifest themselves down the road..:-)..

Mike

The myth the necessity of high P bloom boosters is a direct result of excellent marketing. Truthfully, the excess of P in soils has become something of an environmental problem. I began addressing the problem many years ago...it's not recent news.

The attached link speaks to excess soil P and not container medium fertilizers, but it explains how the high P push probably got started.

Here is a link that might be useful: Phosphorus facts

Meyermike,

I have the stuff, that is why I want to use it. I bought it probably 5 years ago when I knew nothing about fertilization of plants. I still know pretty much nothing. So to answer your question, no I wouldn't buy anything up there in the hundreds, but that is just because I just read what you wrote. I am at the beginnings of learning all this stuff. :o) Like I said, I have it and would rather not contribute to the landfill unless I'm gonna kill my plants.

So, I will do more reading.....thanks for the heads up.

Sandy

Sandy - If you combine equal measures by weight of the MG 23-19-17 and the 15-30-15, you would indeed end up with NPK %s of 19-25-16.

If you have tomatoes, after they get a little growth, you could use the 15-30-15 in equal parts wityh 24-8-16 and be serving something they'll get along with fine.

The 23-19-17 (what is this suggested for?) could probably be used for most things w/o much problem, though it too provides much more P than your plants will want or can use in relation to N (and other elements).

Did you read the thread about fertilizing container plants, Sandy? I wrote the following about hi-P fertilizers so long ago I can't find it by a search. (If anyone has a link to it here on GW, would you please mail it to me so I can save the link?)

Lets first look at the role of fertilizers in general. There are 6 factors that affect plant growth and yield; they are: air, water, light, temperature, soil or media, and nutrients. Liebig's Law of Limiting Factors states the most deficient factor limits plant growth and increasing the supply of non-limiting factors will not increase plant growth. Only by increasing most deficient factor will the plant growth increase. There is also an optimum combination of the factors and increasing them, individually or in various combinations, can lead to toxicity for the plant.

From the above, we can say that when any nutritional element is deficient in the soil, plant growth slows. We have a term for this occurrence: environmental dormancy. When the deficient element is restored to adequacy levels the environmental constraint caused by the deficient element is eliminated and plant growth can resumes at a normal rate, as long as there are not additional limiting factors. Continuing to increase the element beyond the adequacy range offers no benefits and can deleteriously affect the plant - often in several ways, depending on the element.

Somewhere along the way, we curiously began to look at fertilizers as miraculous assemblages of growth drugs, and started interpreting the restorative (of normal growth) effect of fertilizer as stimulation beyond what a normal growth rate would be if all nutrients were adequately present in soils. ItÂs no small wonder that we come away with the idea that there are Âmiracle concoctions out there and often end up placing more hope than is reasonable in them. In couplet with the hope for the Âmiracle tonic is Âmore must be betterÂ. IÂll use that idea as the lead-in to my thoughts on high phosphorous fertilizer blends.

Among container growers you often find common belief that high phosphorus (P) content fertilizers are a requirement for promotion of root growth and/or flowering. Fertilizer blends like 15-30-15, and even 10-52-10 are sold under names that imply that you actually NEED these formulas for plants to bloom well and to produce strong roots. Lets examine that idea in a little more depth.
While anecdotal evidence abounds, there is very little scientific evidence to show any need for such products. IÂve mentioned in other posts that high-P fertilizers are a historical carry-over from when it was most common for plants to be started in outdoor soil beds, the soil in which was usually still quite cold at sowing time. Both the solubility of P and plants ability to take it up are reduced in cold soils, so it was reasoned that fertilizing with high levels of P insured that at least some would be available during periods of growth in chilled soils.

We know that tissue analysis of leaves, roots, flowers - any of the live tissues of healthy plants will reveal that P is present in tissues at an average of 1/6 that of nitrogen (N) and about 1/4 that of potassium (K). Many plants even contain as much calcium (Ca) as P. If we know that we cannot expect P to be found in higher concentrations in the roots and blooms than we find in foliage, how can we justify the belief that massive doses of P are important to their formation?

It is well known among experienced growers that withholding N when all other nutrients are available at adequate levels induces bloom production on smaller and younger plants. Even though plants USE nutrients at approximately a 3:.5:2 ratio (note that N is 6 times the level of P, and K is 4 times the level of P), most greenhouse operations purposely fertilize with something very near a 2:1:2 ratio to limit vegetative growth so they can sell a compact plant sporting pretty blooms to tempt you.

Simply limiting N limits vegetative growth, but it does nothing to limit photosynthesis. The plant keeps making food, but it cannot use it to grow leaves and extend stems because of the lack of N. To where should we imagine the energy goes? It goes into producing blooms and fruit.

What harm might there be in a little extra P in our soils? First consider that the popular 10-52-10 has almost 32 times more P than a huge percentage of plants could ever use. Even 1:1:1 fertilizer formulas like the popular 20-20-20 are already high P formulas because they have 6.25 times more P (in relation to N) than plants require to grow robustly and normally.

Evidence of phosphate overfertilizing usually always includes some degree of leaf chlorosis. P competes with iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) ions for attachment sites and causes antagonistic deficiencies of these micronutrients. Unfortunately, the deficiency of these elements causes interveinal chlorosis (yellowing), and the first thing we normally consider as a fix for yellow leaves is more fertilizer, so we give the plants a good dose of our favorite bloom-bomb which causes, no surprise - worsening of the condition.

IÂll close with an anecdote of how I used to fertilize plants with showy blooms before I had a better understanding of the overall picture. I would fertilize with a "bloom-boosting" fertilizer as long as foliage was bright green. As foliage inevitably yellowed, I would then switch to a high N formula until the color returned & start the cycle over again. I THOUGHT that the P was helping with the blooms and the yellowing was caused by a lack of N, which I quickly jumped to correct at the first evidence of yellow. I now understand that the high levels of P were what were causing the yellowing and it wasnÂt my returning to a high N formula that greened the plant up again, it was the reduction in the level of P in the soil when I stopped using the high-P formulation.

Al

Hi Sandy....I here what your saying..lol
I still have containers and containers of fertilizers with the highest amounts of P you can think of ..
I even have stuff called "Beasty Bloom", where the middle number is 60...What a waste of money on my part, and I have no idea what to do with it, since that stuff will never hit my container plants..

Maybe I will use it on some plants in the yard, not sure which ones though...
When I bought it, would you believe that the customer service person told me it was the best stuff to use on my citrus to make big fruit..I'll give her big fruit!lolol
They died after a few months..

Sandy you'll learn so much here and already 4 of the smartest people I have ever come across anywhere in the pest and plant information have already been on this thread and I thank them ALL the time for what they have helped me with! They are admired and I have great affection for them, and so do my now vibrant healthy plants!

Welcome and I hope you enjoy the forum to the full..

Thank you Rhizzo for that info..I wish I could pull it up at work here..:-(

Mike:-)

If you grow some Comfrey (Bocking 14 Cultivar) you can readily make a good liquid fertilizer out of just the comfrey leaves. I have not tried it myself, but have done a good amount of reading on it. A great renewable organic liquid fertilizer would be worm castings tea mixed with composted liquid comfrey.

You can read up a little more at this website;

http://www.the-organic-gardener.com/Comfrey.html

Sandy - I use Osmocote 19-6-12 which works great, though the supposed 3-month duration of it in the soil is iffy.

About retaining water in the 5:1:1 mix - you could try adding 1 part of turface.

When people refer to the "5:1:1 mix", is this Al's mix? I am using this:

3 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime
controlled release fertilizer
micro-nutrient powder (substitute: small amount of good, composted manure

I'm assuming this is NOT the 5:1:1. Somebody?

I will look for turface and hope that helps to hold the water. Is the Osmocote a granular? I've never seen a water soluble Osmocote, but haven't really looked a lot either.

Thanks!

Sandy

Hi Sandy,
You are using a version of the 5-1-1...(and yes, the 5-1-1 is Al's mix.)
The general mix is 5 parts bark, 1 part peat, and 1 part peralite. and lime. But the beauty of it , is it is adaptable for different plants and areas.

I use Osmocote,
I guess you could call it a granular.. To me it's more like little B B's. :)

JoJo

Osmocote is Scotts brand name for their limed release fertilizer, and is available in many NPK combinations. There are other brands, all working in a similar fashion. The actual fertilizer is within a shell that releases it over time as the plant needs it, based on a plant growing more when the soil is warm and moist. I use the water soluble liquid with it because much of my plant propagation and early growth is before the soil temperature reaches the optimal temperature. I have never had a problem with over fertilization. I use a teaspoon of timed release per gallon and half strength on the FP liquid. Al

I read through this whole thread thinking I'd find a recipe. No such luck! Go to work. Make some cash. BUY fertilizer! That's it!! Great thread...

Hi Al~ (calistoga)
Thanks for the more detailed info on Osmocote.
I had way too much fun in the sun yesteday and was tired, and didn't realize I had left it so short..LOL!

Sandy,
I got mine at home depot. It was near all the MG products.

JoJo