Ron, So you use liquid organic fertilizer. That's what I wondered. I had poor experience with just solid organic fertilizer in the past, although it was in an overly wet SWC. "How old is that urine? What doasge do you use?" The age varies from just created to several weeks. Doesn't seem to matter to much. After about 2 days the pH goes above 8, so it is alkaline. Which might be an advantage when using leaves. I dilute it about 1:5 HLF:water. Don't keep track of dosage. Whenever the leaves look a little yellowish, I add some. Same with the Foliage Pro. Also if the weather is cold, I don't add too much HLF, even if the leaves are yellowish, since when it heats up, much more of the nitrogen becomes available quickly. It does take a lot of HLF to hurt a plant. As an experiment I kept overdosing a small 1.5' tomato plant in the ground to see what it could take. It took 2 cups of undiluted HLF poured right onto the stem base to kill it. The tubs are 18 gallons, big enough for a tomato. "Isn't it high in salts, even diluted?" It has much less salt in it then Foliage Pro. I spilled a little of each in separate trays and let them evaporate, just to compare the salt concentration. "I am skeptical, mainly because pee kills things, and contains all the toxins your body flushes out. I'd have to say that draining in your "pots" couldn't be the best thing.." I had a friend who drained directly in his flower pots. Whenever the neighborhood garden club came over they always exclaimed on how great his flowers were & asked for his secret. He delightfully revealed his secret to their dismay. My wife now asks me to do the same. There's a lot of university research that's been done in Sweden on this subject, that was discussed over a year ago here. You can search on urine and my name to find it. They have villages in Sweden where the city collects the urine and gives it to the local farmers.

Lermer is correct. Even a quick google search will reveal hundreds of peer-reviewed papers on blue light's effect on plants. It's no myth at all. Here's a random example. They took Scots pine seedlings and put them in plexiglass containers, one designed to remove blue light and the other completely clear. I.e., the ones missing blue light got less total light to them; however, they grew *longer* than the ones in the fully transparent plexiglass. I could point to countless more examples of this phenomenon. Blue = stocky and leafy. Red = spindly, encourages fruiting. Right now Southern California Edison is subsidizing the cost of a plain jane looking four foot fluorescent light fixtures so they sell for $1.99 each. Purchase cost isn't the only consideration. Power is generally a bigger cost than upfront costs. Think about drawing 450W for a HID on an 18/6 day/night cycle year-round -- that's 3,000kWh, or $325 a year at average electricity rates. That's no chump change. :P so I decided to try some 225 mixed LED's for some seedlings as I have read about some success with this 14 watt setup, unfortunately the results were less than spectacular, albeit the plants did grow, and did not stretch I still got 2x the growth from the Fluoro in half the time. I cannot comment to the scientific explanation, but It appears that 14 watt LED over 1sq foot is not enough power to really drive growth, Well, obviously ;) LEDs are nice, but they're not magical. The sun on a clear day puts down about 93 watts per square foot (times the sine of the angle to the sun -- if it's straight overhead, times 1.0). Even if your LEDs were 100% efficient, which they're not (for blue, probably a quantum efficiency in the 40%s) that'd still be 15% of the energy of sun shining directly overhead. In practice, factoring into account inefficiencies and light straying from where you intended to illuminate, you're probably getting under 5% of the light of the sun. Now, you get to pick your ideal frequencies, (the graph at the bottom is what you want to look at). But that isn't nearly enough of a boost to compensate for how little light you're putting out. If you want to drive growth, you don't need to double your light; you should at least 4x it. And be sure to minimize any stray light that you can :) Also, as the plants get bigger, penetration will become an issue. LEDs are effectively point light sources; there's nearly no penumbra. The more reflections you can get and the deeper the LEDs are into the canopy (and the more they move, if that's an option), the better your results will be. I'm about to try an experiment with dangling LED christmas lights through my planters to see how they like that.

Melissa, You're welcome. Here's the list of vegetable varieties suitable for growing in containers. This is not an all-inclusive list but it does give you several options for each type of vegetable on the list. With certain vegetables, like bush beans, for example, literally any variety available can be grown in containers. With tomatoes, literally any variety can be grown in containers, although the larger the mature size of the plant, the larger the container it will need. This year, I had several varieties of tomatoes, including Chocolate Stripes, Momotaro, Tropic and Red Defender reach 7' in height in molasses feed tub containers, which probably hold about 20 gallons of soil. Many other tomato plants, including Scarlet Red, Glacier, Sophie's Choice, New Big Dwarf and Red Defender reached about 3 to 4' or so in 7-gallon containers. Still others, including Ildi, Sioux, San Marzano Redorta, and Yellow Ball reached a height of 5' or taller in kitty litter buckets that hold about 5 gallons of soil. All of the container-grown plants produced heavily all season long. So, matching your plants' ultimate size to a container of the right size pays off. If I know where the seeds are usually offered online, I mention the company. However, some companies haven't updated their websites for 2010 so I can't say that they'll have the seed for 2010, just that they usually have it. Dawn Here's the abbreviations for the sources: BCHS = Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds www.rareseeds.com BURP = Burpee Seeds www.burpeeseeds.com CG = The Cook's Garden www.cooksgarden.com CON = Containerseeds.com (I only listed broccoli for this company but it probably has many of the varieties on this list) JSCH = John Scheepers Kitchen Garden Seeds www.kitchengardenseeds.com NIC = Nichols Garden Nursery www.nicholsgardennursery.com PARK = Park Seed www.parkseed.com PINE = Pinetree Seeds www.superseeds.com VS = Victory Seeds www.Victoryseeds.com SSE = Seed Savers Exchange www.seedsavers.org SESE = Southern Exposure Seed Exchange www.southernexposure.com TGSC = Tomato Growers Supply Company www.tomatogrowers.com TT = Totally Tomatoes www.totallytomatoes.com BEANS: Roma II (BCHS, VS, BUR) Contender (BCHS, VS, BUR) Top Crop (VS) Gina (romano type) (NIC) Provider (PINE, SESE, SSE, BUR) Tendergreen (PINE, SSE) Bush Blue Lake (BCHS, BUR, PINE, SESE) Sequioia Purple Roma (BUR) Royalty Purple Pod (BCHS, NIC, PINE, SSE, SESE) Golden Wax Improved (VS) BEANS, LIMA Thorogreen (NIC) Henderson Bush (BCHS, PINE, SESE) Bush Jackson Wonder (BCHS, SESE) Fordhook 242 (SESE) BEETS Red Ace (PINE) Golden Globe (BUR, SSE) Cylindra (BCHS, BUR, NIC, PINE, SSE) Ruby Queen (PINE, VS) Burpee's Red Ball (BUR) Bull's Blood (highly ornamental foliage) (BUR) BROCCOLI Early Dividend (Territorial Seed used to carry it but I haven't bought it in several years so don't know if they still do.) Small Miracle (PARK, CON) Packman (NIC) CABBAGE Gonzales Mini-Cabbage (PINE) Red Acre (SESE, VS) Golden Acre (VS) Savoy Express (JSCH) Primero Red (JSCH) Caraflex (JSCH) CARROTS Adelaide Baby (JSCH) Short 'N Sweet (BUR) Thumbelina (BUR) Little Finger (PINE, VS) Minicor (JSCH, NIC) Mokum (PINE) Parisian/Tonda di Parigi (PINE) Red-Cored Chantenay (BUR, VS) Improved Nantes (VS) Scarlet Nantes (VS) Parmex (JSCH, CG) CAULIFLOWER: Early Snowball (SESE) Igloo (PINE) CHARD: any---they all get about the same size CORN (SWEET): Early Sunglow (BUR, NIC) Blue Jade (dwarf) (SSE) Quickie (PINE) Golden Bantam (BUR, SESE) CUCUMBER: Salad Bush (NIC, PINE, TT, BUR) Spacemaster (PINE, BUR, SESE) Bush Champion (BUR) Fanfare (TT) Picklebush (BUR) Bush Crop (PINE, VS) Homemade Pickles (PINE, VS, TT) Muncher (PINE) Bush Pickle (TT) Ellen's Family White (pickling) (SESE) Arkansas Little Leaf H-19 (pickling) (SESE) EGGPLANT: Bambino (BUR, CG) Fairy Tale (BUR, NIC)) Long Purple (BUR) Slim Jim (PINE) Raveena (PINE) White Fingers (PINE) Applegreen (BCHS, SESE, SSE) Casper (SSE) Diamond (SSE) Neon (CG) LETTUCE: any, but here's some of the more compact ones Tom Thumb (heads get tennis-ball sized) (NIC, SESE, VS) Little Gem (VS) Tennis Ball (SESE) This variety was grown by Thomas Jefferson at Monticello Bronze Mignonette (VS) Buttercrunch (SESE) MELONS: These would need large containers--nothing smaller than the size of a half-whiskey barrel or child's wading pool. Old stock tanks are great for growing melons too. Minnesota Midget (BCHS, SSE) Green Machine (BCHS) Sleeping Beauty (BCHS) OKRA: Little Lucy (NIC, PARK) Baby Bubba (BUR) Pitre's Short Bush Red Cowhorn 3' tall (BCHS) Vidrine's Midget Cowhorn Okra (BCHS) Choppee (SESE) Dwarf Green Long Pod (VS) ONION: any short-day or intermediate types or any bunching types PEAS: Little Marvel (SESE) Sugar Bon (BUR) Snowbird Snow Pea (BUR) Knight (PINE) Lincoln (aka Homestead) DeGrace Snow Pod (BCHS) Oregon Sugar Pod II Snow Pea (BCHS) Wando (BUR, SESE, VS) Laxton's Progress No. 9 (VS) Sugar Ann (SESE, VS) Dwarf Gray Sugar (BUR, SESE, VS) Tom Thumb (SESE) Oregon Trail (NIC) Sugar Spring (NIC) PEPPERS: almost any pepper can be grown in containers, but these few listed here are especially compact Hot: Biker Billy Jalapeno (BUR) Pizza (NIC, TT) Super Chile (TT) TAM Jalapeno #1 (TT) Thai Demon Red (NIC) Medium: Tangerine Dream (BUR) Blushing Beauty (TT) Redskin Red Bell (TT) Mini Belle Mix (TT) Mini Bell Choc (TT) Mini Bell Yellow (TT) POTATOES any fingerling type like Russian Banana, Austrian Crescent, etc. Red Pontiac or Red Norland any other potato can be grown in very large containers PUMPKINS Cheyenne Bush (SSE) Orange Smoothie (semi-determinate) (BUR, PINE) Jack-B-Little (trellised) (BCHS, NIC, PINE) Wee-B-Little (trellised) (NIC, PINE) RADISHES: any type excet the very large winter radishes or the very long Daikon types Cherry Belle (PINE, NIC, SESE, VS) French Breakfast/Early French Breakfast (BCHS, NIC, PINE, VS) Easter Egg II Blend (TT) White Hailstone (BCHS, PINE, VS) Pink Beauty (BCHS, BUR) Purple Plum (BCHS, SSE, VS) Early Scarlet Globe (VS) SQUASH (Summer): Peter Pan Green Scallop (BUR) Sunburst Scallop (PINE) Saffron (PINE) Eight Ball (NIC, PINE) Greyzini (NIC) Ronde De Nice (PINE) Cocozelle (NIC, PINE) Early White Bush Scallop (VS) Yellow Bush Scallop (VS) Papaya Pear (NIC, PINE) SQUASH (Winter): Bon Bon (NIC) Butterbush (BUR) Autumn Glow Butternut (BUR) Bush Table Queen (BUR, SESE) Bush Buttercup (BCHS) Early Acorn (BUR) Cornell's Bush Delicata (NIC, PINE) Blue Baby Hubbard (BUR) TOMATOES: You can grow some ultra-small tomato plants in containers as small as 4" (Red Robin or Micro-Tom), in hanging baskets (Tumbler, Tumbling Tom, Florida Basket) and in larger 5 to 20-gallon containers, taking care to put Determinates in 5 to 10 gallon containers and Indeterminates in 7 to 20+ containers. Here's some varieties that do well in containers. Micro-Tom (TGSC) Florida Basket (TGSC) Elfin (TGSC) Small Fry (TGSC, TT) Tiny Tim (TT) Tumbler (TT, BUR) Tumbling Tom Red (PINE, TT, TGSC) Tumbling Tom Yellow (PINE, TT, TGSC) Balcony (CG) Red Robin (TT) Orange Pixie (NIC, TGSC) Canary Yellow (TGSC) Totem (TGSC) Patio VF (TT) Patio Princess (BUR) Window Box Roma (NIC, TGSC) Bush Early Girl (BUR, PIN, TGSC) Better Bush (PINE) Bush Big Boy (BUR) Bush Goliath (PINE, TT) Bush Beefsteak (TT, TGSC) Bushsteak (BUR) Martino's Roma (PINE, TT) Sweet Baby Girl (BUR, NIC, TGSC) Lime Green Salad (BCHS, TGSC, VS) New Big Dwarf (TGSC) Southern Night (a rare black determinate since most black tomatoes are indeterminate) (TGSC) Green Grape (TGSC, VS) Glacier (SESE, TT, TGSC) Husky Red (TT,TGSC) Husky Cherry Red (TT,TGSC) Mountain Princess (BCHS, SESE) Sophie's Choice (SESE) Green Zebra (NIC, VS) Black Sea Man (TT) WATERMELON: You should grow these in containers no smaller than 20 gallons, such as whiskey half-barrels, children's wading pools, trash cans or stock tanks. Melons (and pumpkins too, in fact) need a lot of water and have very vigorous root systems so the large containers are necessary in order for them to do well. Bush Sugar Baby (BUR) Sugar Baby (BUR) Blacktail Mountain (BCHS) Golden Midget (BGHS) Yellow Doll (NIC)

nyteeyes - yeah, i hope to hear from someone soon as well. my plants look even worse today! and thank you regarding the photos. :) speaking of photos... i took a lot more today. closeup of the leaves, which look far worse now: a shot of the overall plant, which i thought might help show where the damage is taking place in relation to the whole. i know this plant is still in a dark pot - it had been doing so well up until now that i didn't think i needed to change anything. new growth is green and fresh looking: this next shot is from the roma tomato plant i was posting about originally. it shows the way the leaves twist and curl up like little pigtails: in non-tomato news i noticed what seems to be my first female cucumber flowers. am i correct in this assessment? of course i also noticed what seemed to be whiteflies on the leaves, so i sprayed with a little soap and water (over and under the leaves).