The fact remains your method calls for growing plants in soda bottles. It just isn't something that I think will ever have wide appeal.

Perhaps you would get a better response if you spend more time explaining the general concepts using accepted horticultural terms than pushing the use of recycled plastic containers many consider 'trash'.

I am not knocking what you do if it's what you enjoy, but I just don't see too many folks running out to set up their container gardens with plastic soda bottles and plastic crates.

I don't think you know hydroponics to be making such erroneous overgeneralization. Hydroponics leaves the smallest footprint than traditional soil-based growing methods.

There are already people who share similar environmental and water concerns as you (and for world hunger) and already have found workable "revolutionary" solutions using hybrid hydroponics and soiless techniques that you have not disclosed forthrightly with your Dark Garden growing method.

"erroneous overgeneralization" which makes you what? Where was I wrong? If I'm so wrong about hydroponics tell me where I'm wrong. Instead of your generalization spout some facts and figures where I was wrong. Where I mis-spoke. If there's a a hybrid method that takes care of the waste water problem with hydroponics please, please show me. All you done is show the same things over again in different places. So I ask again what do those growers do with the waste water? How do they get rid of the salts? You didn't even make an attemp to answer your own question hoping no one would notice. As for "not disclosed forthrightly" that still makes me hahhahha laugh. Plenty of pictures and direction were already given. You don't even have to search for them, just go a few pages back right here.

I wonder who orginated the multiple and repetitive threads on The Dark Method? Did I see at least three different threads created within the last day or two? If there were no multiple Dark Method threads started where you "show the same things over again in different places," then we could very possibly avoided repetitions and have Q/A under one topic and discussion thread? For the record, I don't believe I repeated myself (but summarized my view here).

I didn't answer your challenge or question (not mine) in the first place in part because your non-specific question in the other thread didn't merit an answer (of the informative type). The question you are asking now (flashing salts) would be conditional depending on which system/s you are comparing to your Dark Method. In any case, the question and respective answer would not be relevant with respect to any reputed advantage of The Dark Method in my opinion. But since you are the expert and may have thought through these things, you could enlighten us what would be the advantage/s you are referring to?

In my view, flushing salts simply is done the same way regardless of the growing systems (hydroponics, self-watering, soiless, or containerized, and etc.). Flushing salts out of a plant or rinsing out the water reservoir, if there is one, will be good for the health of the plants independent of wastes, pollution, growing method even if The Dark Method does not or cannot engage in flushing.

I believe this thread should end here since it is of no added value and should be continued at the other more active thread where many good questions were asked.

Ho, ho where are you running to? You didn't even make an attemp to answer the question. Pick your hybrid hydroponic method and show where the waste water is taken care of other than a simple flush down the toilet. Your choice. Run or answer. This is your future too.

My original point about your lack of clear disclosure is fair and just in that since your Dark Garden is basically a wick system as far as I can tell (after leaving everyone in the dark and guessing which only created more doubts), what's wrong with simply stating that your Dark Method is a wick system and how and why it works. You can also share The Dark Garden's features and advantages or as compared to other wick or subirrigation models on the market instead of the incoherent hype or incomprehensible logic. If people don't even know how your system works (or you can't or won't tell them or make them understand), how can you expect people to follow your logic in making a comparison and contrast of your system with various hydroponic systems while expecting me to make the point for you? Comparing hydroponics to your model before sufficiently explaining what your system is, for example, seems like an illogical and difficult act to follow if not a diversion like comparing apples with oranges as you put it.

If you volunteered information clearly about your grower as you invited others to try it or offered an objective review of the benefits that your Dark Garden offers in comparison with other similar wick or self-contained subirrigation growers (comparing apples with apples), people have no reason not to understand that logically or to doubt you.

If we compare your Dark Garden with the multiple DIY or marketed self-watering systems I cited earlier in this and another thread, any waste or pollution you perceived from doing a flushing is a non-issue since many of these self-contained growers do not require flushing during the growing season, or the gardener can assess the situaion and has the option to choose to flush or not flush their plants or water reservoir. Moreover, if a periodic flushing is necessary due to the needs of the plant or the variations in the use of fertilizers or the weather during a particular growing season, most gardeners I would imagine would not think twice about using the water they need to maintain the health of their plants. Are you advising others to do salts flushing when using your Dark Garden design?

BTW, if what you're say about dumping weekly or bi-weekly used up hydroponic fertilizers (which are soluble pharmceutical grade unlike conventional chemical fertilizers which are made of lesser purity grade chemicals) is toxic to the soil, then think of the stale non-moving used up a month old hydroponic toxic soup sitting in your Dark Garden water reservoir. Shouldn't you be emptying that even more degraded toxic soup (purported often to be more than a month old - your watering frequency) which is directly feeding the plants above to be harvested and consumed?

The evaporation/wick system of The Dark Garden is not the projected (or perceived) improved cultivating "method" but an old SIMPLIFIED model that grew out of hydroponics to meet the needs of educators, enthusiasts, and urban and home gardeners as far as I can deduce with the information presented so far.

Hyroponics is a proven ANCIENT horticultural technology, and its principles have been used by various soiless and self-watering home gardening methods. They have been used successfully by the American military during WWII. Moreover, hydroponic experiments have been conducted in select American universities and space programs but lead in larger scales mostly by the Dutch, the Far East, and the Eropean growers and consumers conscientious of resource consevation where limitations both in natural resources and climate conditions mandate the use and exploitation of such technology than their American counterparts. American consumers and growers lag behind the Euopeans in acceptance of hydroponic technology and popularity.

Hydroponic nutrients have to be made of purified pharmaceutical grade or food grade soluble minerals in order to feed plant roots (insted of feeding the soil or soil micro-organisms as in traditional organic practices), and thus by nature, hydroponic fertilizers (nutrients) contain less mined minerals and heavy metals than either chemical or organic fertilizers (I confirmed this and did a comp/contrast myself of the three categories of fertilizers using Washington State's Fertilizer Test Database). In this sense, knowledgeable and well managed hydroponics practices are more organic (and the produce can be just as if not more nutritious and tasty) than organic horticulture practices and with reduced consumption of toxic metals and exposure to gastrointestinal and life-threatening pathogens as compared to organic produce.

Because hydroponics delivers different forumulated soluble nutrients directly to roots to meet the nutritional needs at various growth stages of the plant without the conversion steps required by soil micro-organisms, plants generally grow more effortlessly, faster, and precisely with less labor in less space with less soil pollution. Although scientists, growers, and urban growers are looking for ways to improve and increase resource conservation and reduce environmental pollution even more in hydroponics, hydroponic horticulture has a less enviornmental impact and is more resourceful (feed more people with very little) than even the organic soil-based method. And contrary to what was stated previously, resource conservation and self-sustaining agricultural practices have been the concerns and foundations of BOTH old and modern hydroponic practices. For a quick summary of the advantages of hydroponic systems and the Anatomy of a Recirculating Hydroponic System, read the "Water is a Precious Resource" article at American Hydroponics at http://www.amhydro.com/mc/index.html.

There are also other recirculating hydroponic systems being refined such as aquaponics with the objective to maximizing the symbiosis of fish farming or the eco-system of a pond or other water culture with that of agriculture. However, nutrients delivered from "organic" sources generally do not offer the same quality produce in efficiency and consistency from purified and complete formulations. These nutrients from natural sources are best used in addition to formulated nutrients.

Forgot to mention that New Zealand, Israel, and Australia are three other leaders and big players in hydroponics in addition to the ones I mentioned earlier.

That's alot of talking to cover the fact that what I' said is true. Worse yet you didn't even bother to "search" out the answers I printed here before. There's a history here of my pass statements. Haahaha it's all in black and white and color photo's. Try looking. The wick has nothing to do with The Method. I guess that's incomprehensable to you too. But hey. The designs are right here. There's no hydoponic fluid in the lower pod. One mintue of "search" would have told you that. If The "Idea" of The Dark Garden scares you too much don't try it. Haahahaha and please show what you have done. Show your hydrponic systems to prove what? I'm still waiting for that part. Show side by side what's so common about my method that's so diagreeable to you. I don't mind. Really! The truth of the matter is they've got nothing on this method no matter what country, educator or method you enjoin. But please give it a try. You'll feel better. But first try it with something that doesn't need a plug. That's where your "assumptions" fall apart before you even begin. It's only for water. That's why it's called a Nanny Pod. A "Nanny". Look up my history, someone else thought it might help.
You mentioned about stale water in the lower pod? YES the water is stale but...and here's the interesting part. That why it lasts so long. It doest get it's air from the water. So you get a very, very short root system. With hydroponics the roots would fill up the chamber. So many differences hydrponics doesn't even have a clue. Give it a try. It's free. There's nothing to buy. Haahahah no electrcy, no gallons of nurients to waste. Nothing. You can grow it organicly or chemically. All out of a couple of recycled plastic bottles.

How can half-truth, sensationalism, hype, over- and understatements and insinuations be true? Perhaps you have been fighting some old battles that you cant even see and think straight. There is nothing disagreeable about The Dark Garden. In fact, from the very beginning, I and few others have pointed out that The Dark Garden can work because it is a version of a simple hydroponic system (and a self-watering planter). As I suggested previously without devaluing your resourcefulness and contribution, you may get improved reception if you could speak about your method and growing experience directly - without making other unnecessary misleading associations or comparisons.

My central point remains unchanged in that while your Dark Garden utilizes working principles practiced and made popular by recent self-watering and older simple hydroponic models, "your method" is neither revolutionary nor have you proven or demonstrated that your method has an edge over these existing growing methods as the name or your misleading presentations and statements may suggest. Low tech simple hydroponic growers (and homemade self-watering planters) are popular because often with little investment in materials, these growers eliminate space/weather limitations and are highly productive and user-friendly, and their portable designs can be modified and set up easily (and understood) and have been used by children, urban and rural gardeners, and small farmers around the world in various ways. Furthermore, there is nothing to comprehend about your revolutionary grower or growing method when several people already "comprehended" your method before you were able and willing to present it as it is.

What is disagreeable is the off-the-tangent diversions and misleading, if not false, statements you made about your method and about hydroponics implicitly and explicitly. For one, your perceived shortcomings of other hydroponic systems do not demonstrate the superiority of your method. On another matter, did you know these "clueless hydroponic systems" also do not and cannot get air from water? If you are speaking as an expert, then your generalized statements do not serve to inform but to mislead. Various water culture practices simply have different demonstrated or comparative results. Which hydroponic horticulture method might you be comparing your Dark Garden to? Do you have comparative results to support such overstatements or the suggested advantages of your method? Were there negative controls in your experiment to support the analysis of your observation with which to base your findings? Moreover, shorter roots, less plant water uptake (or longer watering periods), or water conservation interpreted to be advantages or unique with your method do not necessary demonstrate quality, productivity, or efficiency of your planter or method. In fact, I can think of several reasons why these interpretive advantages may suggest incorrect observational correlations and analyses of the observer or horticulture inefficiency and problems at different growth stages of a plant.

With all the hype and diversions with this introduction for your method, youÂve neither inspired me nor do I have any compelling reason to search for your past comments about The Dark Garden or your method. You, the designer of The Dark Garden, confirmed and introduced the grower (barely) as a method that utilized wicking and evaporation and hydroponic nutrients in your instructions in another recent thread that you are now denying and insinuating as not being understood correctly. Do you even know what your method is? The thought of searching out even more unintelligible statements or bewildering excursions from your past is enough of deterrence. Maybe I'll get to compare and test out your method someday after I build my simple hydroponic systems.

To see videos and pictures of the diversity of other low tech (commercial or non-commercial) self-contained soiless growers or simple hydroponic designs and their demonstrated successes that meet your objectives and needs, all you need to do is to surf the net for the multiple models and weblinks I already listed in your other Dark Garden thread recently.

Ya know I don't know much about the industry and am just starting to read about Hydroponics. However a pet peeve of mine is poor logic. If the run off from hydroponics is causing algae to grow how can it be "toxic" to plant life? Also from an environmental stand point if you contained the run off so it stays out of the ground water wouldn't steep sided pools with lots of algae be a benefit? Harvest the algae and compost it. Prior to harvest it would be a source of oxygen just like the oceans, if on a much smaller scale. After the algae has used what is in the run off to grow...what is left in the liquid? Is it usable? Is there a way to neutralize it? I agree that just dumping chemicals into our drinking water is a no-no but I can't imagine that these problems are without solution.