I'm used to seeing labor costs being equal to or greater than the cost of materials, but I don't live in your market where things may be priced differently.

Yes, it is typical for landscapers to mark-up on plants and materials. I think that mark-up is typically around 15% above retail. Those plant prices seem steep even after considering their large size and the 15% mark-up. Maybe that's because I am used to CA plant prices.

You could probably save money by going with somewhat smaller plants, but then you'll have to wait form them to grow. Plant size may not be something you can modify though, because it is dependent on what your local nurseries and wholesalers keep in stock.

I am not a landscaping professional, so don't take my words as the final answer.

I would not be a landscaper for all the tea in China. First I have no idea what any of this list means but in my business, that I do to make money, I buy stuff and add my profit to it. I employ people and add my bit on top of what that costs so forget Mother Theresa. I imagine these guys can't make your landscape for the love but you might want to ask what 1170 6 Hybrid Rhododendron 3'-3.5' means.

A landscape is not necessarily simply goods and services. Some companies get much better results than others. Some results, such as plant survival, can be guaranteed. Other results can make all the difference in value to a client that is willing to invest in that higher value.

We can not sit in front of our monitors in various parts of the country and have any idea if this company does poor work, good work, very good work, or phemominal work. Further, we can not tell if you are willing to pay a lot more for better work.

Not having familiarity of the site, it is impossible to tell if the labor charges are great or small.

If the question is whether these are average prices, the answer is that they are above average, at least for plants (assuming this is material only rather than plants installed) in many parts of the country. This does not by any means suggest that you are being over charged. If the value of the landscape that this company can produce is better than others who would charge less and you want that extra value, then it is what it is.

So, do you value this company's landscape that much more than the company that will charge less?

The ball is in your court.

The labor costs do not seem out of line to me - generally they reach at least 50% or more of the total installation cost depending on the degree of detail and in very large part, the extent of hardscaping involved. But of course without seeing the design and the specs, it's impossible to say if they are excessive for your specific situation.

Based on west coast prices, which tend to be rather high, the plant costs DO seem excessive, in fact outrageously so. I assume what you have relayed are in round dollars, i.e., the 6' tree-form PeeGee hydrangea is $425? That same plant would sell here, retail, for no more than $150. Dwarf boxwoods of that size run around $23 per plant retail and about $8 wholesale. Since landscapers should be buying their plants wholesale, there is no need to mark up plants more than retail - most landscapers in my area mark up their plants about 3 times, which is a standard industry practice and approximates retail. If you have doubts about the validity of these plant costs, I'd suggest you inquire of any local retail nurseries as to what they'd charge for a similar plant of similar size. None of the plants listed are unique enough to demand premium prices.

Personally, as a professional in this business, I think you are getting goudged unless there is something else you are not telling us.

The whole cost looks excessive to me. The labor is excessive but I guess people can charge whatever for their labor. I usually hear $15 to $25 per hour.

The plants are WAAAAAAAYYYYY excessive, I would try to acquire them on my own. for egs. home depot has boxwoods this week 3 for $12 im guess they are small tho...

HTH

Garden centers in my area, in general, charge twice the wholesale price for retail sales. You should NOT be paying more than retail. The prices do sound very high, and you may be using plants that are larger than necessary to get a good effect in a reasonable time.

Do you have a drawing of the planting plan? Did you pay separately for the design, so that you now own it? If there is no arrangement with the first guy that prevents it, you can get other reputable landscapers to give you a price on plants and installation.

What part of CT are you in? Email me, I may be able to recommend some people.

In my area, housecleaners get $20 and up. $30 per hour will get you a guy with a strong back and truck to cut and haul brush or spread mulch, no landscaping or horticultural skills. The last time I hired someone to take away a truckload of brush, a woman and a guy came out, loaded it from a pile I had saved up, raked up the area, taking less than an hour, and charged me $150. That was right before I bought my truck.

Labor costs in my area are $50 per hour for the landscape crew chief and $35 for the rest of the crew. If you hire a craftsman for a particular facet of the installation - mason, carpenter, water feature specialist, etc. - the labor costs for these more skilled specialties go up from there. And often quite a bit.

thanks so much for your (scary!) observations. I found another site for landscape designers, and found there the "industry standard" is 2.3-2.5x plant costs (based on their plant cost, not retail). So based on that math they were in the high end of a reasonable range.

Then, to your responses, and ZOWEEE totally different take on the reasonableness question.

The site details are very straightforward, with existing beds that are going to have the old plants ripped out and new ones put in. The house had been derelict for some time and had once had a great gardener but now things are kaput for the most part. There is one 12 foot tall blue spruce that will be removed in that labor charge. Other than that, ripping out and/or shaping barberry, pachysandra, etc. This happens on level ground as foundation plantings and again on level ground in existing 3 foot beds along the fence line.

I don't know how to paste a picture so that's the written description to make up for it. :)

As an update, I've called the landscaper and said I've researched industry standards on pricing and would like to talk with him further to understand how he approached his bid. The ball is in HIS court to follow up with me, I think.

Any more input or guidance is always welcome! Thanks guys!

In your other thread (Help Rhododendron Alternatives), you said that when you bought your home, you were given a landscaping plan that the former owners had not implemented. If you are now putting that plan out to bid without significant changes to it, why not see if you can get some bids that may be easier on your pocketbook? As Laag and others have pointed out, there may be good reasons why this one bid is high... but then again, if you have a fairly level lot with easy access and no unusual obstacles, perhaps it is not necessary for you to pay a premium price for your job. If going with a stranger, I believe it is important to check references and drive by some of his/her installations that have been in place for a few years, but I suspect you would do that anyway before parting with $20k.

What I noticed is that the plant sizes would make for a very mature landscape right away. I mean REALLY mature. 7 gallon azaleas--3 gallon ferns--if in fact the gallon size is "good container" grown and not just potted up. The heights, when noted, are large. The prices do seem high compared to what I have seen for even for large specimens at my local nurseries (not box stores) but again, we're not in the same region or market. So obviously it will be a big job to install such large items correctly for good survival--really big holes! And, do we assume that the spacing they used reflects both the fact that some of these babies aren't going to grow much more as well as that some of them, when they do grow, will grow a lot since are large to start with.

As laag has pointed out, you would get a really big bang right away from using specimens this large. So you may be paying super top dollar for that, and should decide, does that sound cool and not worth trying to cut back $1000 or so to get different plant prices. Part of the deal is to try to figure out how you can be assured or satisfied about what you are "getting" from this company.

Isn't it appropriate to discuss that with the company to some extent? Such as , wow, $__ for a __--tell me why that is. Seems like they ought to have an answer, though I admit I might not be able to interpret it, such as, well, we have a grower whose plants are just primo, all the other 5-gal whatevers are usually root bound and blah, blah, blah. I would prefer to pay reasonable rates for plant material and be shown a higher rate for labor than to think items were padded or larger than necessary items were used, or whatever.

Another question I would have, not knowing the whole deal on your property and the areas being landscaped, is, is the area being prepped adequately to accept these large specimens? Perhaps you have really good topsoil alrady and/or they are building large partially raised beds with a good loam. How many yards of what kind of soil mix are you getting for $975? My example would be, you can't just dig a big hole in clay soil or raise up low-quality topsoil for a bunch of 7 gal azaleas and expect it to be happy.

So, you're back to some form of shopping around and/or reviewing references and examples of their work and deciding on the company and not just the shopped-cost. Trust vs. research vs. some combination.

Just for the heck of it I called a couple of people who sell "top soil" a term that defies description apparantly, anyway the most expensive was $36 a cubic metre. $975 divided by 36 is 27. "Mulch and fertiliser" is another slippery devil and can cost between $2 and $8 a bag (2 cu.ft) the most expensive gives you 72 bags or about 5 cubic metres. That is 32 cubic metres of material on top of the stuff that comes out of the holes where the plants will be! Are you building a mountain over there or what? You will also notice that the price for the topsoil (975) is the same as the price for 3 rhodothingies 5 vibirnum and debris disposal is this a coincidence?
I am not sure this helps any but I was just thinking how much dirt you would get for close to a thousand bucks especially with that other question about a sound barrier.

I don't think the landscaper is obligated to justify his prices to you, but you could do some homework and check local nurseries for prices on similar sized plants to get a feel for how much he is charging for them. If he is working steadily, then someone is paying those prices.

Have you seen his work? Talked to satisfied customers? If I was hiring someone to do $20k worth of plantings, I'd get a two or three prices from well-established landscape contractors before deciding to go ahead.

okay wow you guys are really giving me great insights....I'm the bubba gump of this forum. I've just gotten of the phone with the landscaper, reviewing his numbers.

(1) He is "not opposed to negotiating". LAAG, don't worry I've read your post and heed your counsel.

(2) His plant prices are above retail at 3 nurseries here in Fairfield County. The range for 3 gal. landscape roses retail is $20-$30, and his price to me is $35 per. When I reviewed this with him, he said that was because the nurseries I called do such a huge volume they can offer better retail prices than he can, because he buys from a "re-wholesaler". He explained he was between a wholesaler and a retailer. I suggested we just buy all our plants from the nurseries directly and he said he wouldn't make any money that way.

(3) I fully respect small business and the need to make a profit and pay for talent/expertise - - but I also respect fair trade practices. We've agreed to sit down on Thursday to review his methodology....I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks again... Any last minute advice or tips please keep on posting!

PS. Adamante if you are still reading thanks so much for the "Mountain Math"....funny and also helpful!

Laura

So why are the specimens so large? Was that on your request or the landscaper's recommendation? Most of these sizes are larger than what even the good retail nurseries around me carry. I cannot imagine trying to transport and plant 8 foot tall Rhododendrons. You are likely paying a hefty premium for these large size plants. What if you scaled the shrubs back to 5 and 3 gallon sizes and the perennials to 1 gallon pots?

- Brent

Fairfield is about as high end a market there is on the east coast. Those prices are competitive in my market (aside from the $5,150, which I'm not sure what it is for).

I suggest getting other bids and learn "the going rate" in Fairfield. Just make sure that the companies you get quotes from are equally well established with equal reputations. The lawn mowing guys would be all over it for half the price, but is that who you want doing the work?

I look at get bids from landcsapers at one of my jobs and price things out at another. I reverse engineer the bids that I get in by comparing the prices to one particular wholesale catalog. When I apply that average to your plant list, it comes up $1,200 less than your estimate for the price of the plants not installed. It is a lot of money, but I don't think it is out of line with the market that you are in.

The plants are large, so I believe the negotiation will come in the form of reducing size to reduce price.

I think the sit-down sounds reasonable. I was not trying to nit-pick $5 differences in prices because there must be some hard to pinpoint costs, but more to understand what is the function and purpose and value of the apparently $200-300 rhododendrons, how many cubic yards of what, etc. There were a lot of high dollar items and so you get to ask, why those choices.

To relate this more to a general design installation issue, rather than just, how much to pay, I would be trying to think, are there certain key areas of your landscape in which selected large shrubs are going to make a nice impact and can you see that in his recommendations, or did he just super-size everything for no particular reason ? These are things I have been thinking about more after some of laag's comments on not being too cheap and dinky especially with key foundation plantings. Yet there are a number of places in my landscape where I do not need big impact and so normally would not go hunting for big specimens. But if someone ELSE was going to obtain and plant them for me anyway, then I might decide that if only an extra 10% in materials for great impact, I might go for it.

Are you comfortable enough with the plant selections to make big investments in some of the species--aside from the big impact issue, is there a reason to be a little more cautious with plant material costs in case you decide you don't like your rhodies?

Has anyone else had to deal with that--installing some big-ticket items and then not liking how they actually grow, bloom, whatever ? I realize this project is not gigantic, but still.

A few years ago, I let an arborist with a large company design some plantings for me, including plant selection. He selected a river birch for the corner of my property, and I questioned him several times about the suitability of a tree that big for that particular spot. He insisted, during more than one discussion about it, that it would be fine. He ordered a large specimen, over fifteen feet tall, and they brought a backhoe to plant it.

When they arrived, he looked at the spot where it was supposed to go, and agreed it was WAY too big for that spot. He convinced me to put it in another spot instead, and the tree is flourishing, but I'm not happy with the placement and wish I had insisted he take it back because it was his mistake. I paid a lot of money for it, along with the labor to plant it, and wish I hadn't. I should have gone with my gut feeling that he was wrong, but didn't feel at the time that I knew better than he did.

I've made other mistakes, too, over the years, on the advice of professial landscape designers and certified arborists. I learned something valuable every time.

I priced out my plant list at one nursery for just over $5,000. A reputable landscape installer priced it at $10,000, installed (with soil ammended and mulched), so I guess your estimates are in line with mine.

Your plant prices seem to be on the high side, I work for a garden center in a metropolitan area, I think our prices are appropriate for the area & ours are lower than your prices,not alot, maybe 10-20%-our garden center charges 50% of plant prices for installation, so for the plan you have our price might be lower. Say, 12-14K total, with a one year guarantee-of course, ongoing maintenance, watering, feeding, etc. would be up to you-maybe this price is a fair one for your area of the country-you need to decide if what this company offers will be worth it to you....