Organic vs Synthetic debate :)

11 years ago

Everyone seems to love to debate this topic, so I thought I would start a thread for fun and see where it goes.

I am no scientist and have no formal horticultural training, it's just a hobby for me.

My view on containers is that synthetics are the way to go and the organic approach should be left to raised beds and growing in-ground.

I look at containers like a fish tank, a closed system. The fish in your fish tank rely on specialized bacteria to break down their waste and prevent the fish from dying due to ammonia, nitrite, and or nitrate poisoning. In order to maintain these bacteria populations, frequent water changes are required.

When growing organically, all sorts of microbes are needed to make the nutrients available to your plants and support a healthy root zone. In a container supporting these microbes would require frequent refreshing of the growing medium similar to water changes in an aquarium. This would be sure to be stressful on your plants and be quite a bit of maintenance on the caretaker, just as in my opinion, doing water changes on an aquarium are. Which is why I no longer keep fish.

This is why I fell synthetics are the way to go in containers, and organics are perfect for growing in-ground.

Of course, the bigger the container, the more stable the closed system becomes. Just like with aquariums, the bigger the tank the less frequently you have to do water changes (as long as the fish population is reasonable). So, maybe in really large containers organic approaches become possible, but why wouldn't you just grow in the ground then?

Just a thought that I felt like putting out there.

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Comments (14)

dirtguy50 SW MO z6a
11 years ago
Do a seach and wear youself out.
calistoga_al ca 15 usda 9
11 years ago
Not that I think we need further debate on this subject, but I must ask why you think the size of the container, moves it out of the container category? Al
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Growing in Containers: Organic vs. Synthetic
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I was invited to discuss nutrient supplementation on another popular gardening forum very recently. The reply I left is rather appropriate to your wonderings, so I'll post what I left there: If what I leave you with finds you with additional questions - please ask. I get asked this question frequently, or a variation like: "I want to feed my plants the best - what's best & how often should I feed?". Most people queried, would look right past the question and hand you a box or direct you to the fertilizer section of a plant store for "plant food". Actually, you cannot feed your plants. Food provides energy - fertilizer does not. Plants manufacture their own food during the process of photosynthesis when the pigment chlorophyll traps the energy of the sun in a molecule of carbon dioxide and water. The result of this miraculous reaction, without which the earth would be uninhabitable, is a molecule of glucose - sugar - a carbohydrate - photosynthate. The molecule acts just like a battery, storing energy from the sun that can be translocated to all living plant parts for immediate use, or stored in living cells - roots, leaves, and cambium for later use. In order for a plant to make and use food efficiently, certain elements need to be available to the plant. In fertile garden soil, it is likely, even probable that that the nutrients will be available in a usable concentration. In container culture, it is a virtual certainty that we will have to accept the responsibility for providing nutrients in usable concentrations for the term of the planting if we are to expect plants to grow at or near their potential genetic vigor. The three main elements or compounds that are needed for plant metabolism are nitrates, phosphates, and potassium (NPK), and they represent the bulk of ingredients in balanced fertilizers. We term these ingredients macro-nutrients, sometimes referred to as "the majors". Also included in the macro-nutrient category, but necessary in lower concentrations are magnesium, calcium and sulfur. Rounding out the list of nutrients needed to keep plants healthy are the micro-nutrients, or "the minors". These nutrients include iron, boron, zinc, copper, manganese, molybdenum, chlorine, cobalt, and nickel. Please note that some of the minor elements, or micro-nutrients are required in such minute amounts that deficiencies are rare in garden soils, but more common in container media. For that reason, it is good practice to insure that you use a fertilizer that is complete, including the minors. If the minor nutrients are not listed on the fertilizer package, and youre unsure that your soil contains an adequate supply, an excellent way of providing the minors while furnishing major nutrients is to use a granular soluble or insoluble product (e.g, STEM or Micromax). Organic fish and/or seaweed emulsions as part of your supplementation program can also be effective, but here I'll concentrate on the major elements. Now that we've have seen that fertilizer is not plant food, but a way of delivering some of the raw materials or building blocks that plants need to make their own food and keep their systems orderly, I'll briefly say that it is important that we insure the soils we use contain adequate/appropriate volumes of air and water so as to make nutrient uptake possible and efficient, but that is another subject I won't dwell on today. You can probably use a schedule or timetable to fertilize plants & have them be reasonably happy, but I use a different approach. If you do choose to fertilize on a regular schedule, it makes no sense to continue to fertilize when plants are quiescent due to chill, heat, or other unfavorable cultural conditions, Under these conditions, you might extend the preset intervals. Plants need more nutrients when robust and actively growing and less when they are "coasting". I use a two-pronged approach to my fertilizing. The first thing I do is note leaf color of older leaves. N is a very mobile nutrient in plants. When it is deficient, plants "rob" it from older leaves to use in the production of new vegetative growth. So, when I see a lightening of leaves toward a lighter green or yellow, especially older leaves, and I'm sure that other cultural conditions are what the plant requires for good vitality, it indicates to me a need for supplemental nutrients. A simplification of how I fertilize is: I attempt to get a higher percentage of N to foliage plants or those that are being grown for a reason other than blooms or fruit. Highly nitrogenous fertilizers support the plant during the growth of leaves and foliage. For flowering/fruiting plants, the phosphatic portion of fertilizers aid flower/fruit production, so I'll usually include the intermittent use of a fertilizer with higher percentage of P. Potassic compounds (K) stimulate the growth of roots and are included in adequate percentage in all complete fertilizers I use. I use both chemical and organic fertilizers. As noted, but worth repeating, I determine the need for fertilization by leaf color. When leaves lighten and fertilizer is needed, I mix a recommended full strength solution of 20-20-20 soluble granular fertilizer and add a full strength solution of 5-1-1 fish emulsion in the same mix. This mix, I'll apply to foliage plants & plantings that are not dependent on blooms for their beauty. This is pretty much my standard for these plantings. For blooming plants, I'll use the same 20-20-20 fertilizer with a 2-3-1 fish emulsion included - UNLESS leaf color is good. If leaf color is good - I'll substitute a bloom-inducing, soluble formulation like 10-52-10 or 15-30-15 and still use the 2-3-1 emulsion. In all cases, I'll apply these solutions to well-hydrated plants growing in moist or damp soil, thoroughly saturating the entire volume of soil in the container. I prefer the reliability and immediate action of the chemical soluble fertilizers for results, but understand the wont of some to remain organic. Generally speaking, organic fertilizers do release nutrients over a fairly long period, but there is a potential and considerable drawback in depending solely on them. They may very well not release enough nutrients to give the plant what it needs, when it needs it for best vitality. Organic fertilizers depend on soil organisms to break them down into elements the plant can assimilate, so most of them are effective only when soil is moist and soil temperature is warm enough for the soil organisms to be active. This soil organism population is a boom/bust proposition in container soils due to the extreme variables of temperature, moisture and pH. Nutrients in chemical form are immediately available for plant use and exhibit no dependency on soil biotic activity for availability. Plants do not care whether their elemental building blocks are provided in chemical or organic form.color> Additionally, practices that promote high population numbers of soil organisms that feed on organic particulates hastens soil structural collapse, which is certainly counter-productive to your need for an extended-life soil. When I think of soils that must last long term, I immediately consider the percentages of organic:inorganic componants. If I want a soil to last several years, I'll use something with more than 2/3 inorganic parts, like Turface, pumice, perlite, Soil Perfector, etc., and only 1/10 - 1/3 organic parts - usually fir or pine bark. For plantings of 1-2 years, I'll use a mix of primarily bark, peat, perlite. Well, I certainly never intended to go on so long; and I know I bored some into leaving before they got this far, but for those that made it to the end, I hope my thoughts were clear enough to provide some insight. Al Fassezke
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My clever attempt to be coy is an utter failure. As I don't know who reads this forum and I don't wish to offend, I'm going to be a little less generic while still protecting the innocent. I know one does not visit this site but I'm unsure of the other. I think the other only reads certain lawn care experts and probably does not visit. As there has been some "uncomfortableness" in this forum lately, I would really appreciate that this not degenerate into an organic vs synthetic debate, "true organic" vs "pseudo organic", editorials on adverse environmental impacts or denigrate the parties. The scenario is two neighbors. Both have beautiful KB lawns. No disease, insect or thatch issues over the past 4 years or more. My own lawn care is much more similar to one than the other so I admit to more than just a passing interest. The relevant facts: To my knowledge, soil is identical in structure to my own. TEC: just under 10. Neighbor #1 uses synthetic fertilizers. Applies 1 and 1/2 pound of N before June 15 in 1/2 pound applications. Applies 1 pound of N via Milorganite sometime between June 15 and August 15 primarily for the iron or to give the lawn a "needed kick". Applies 3 pounds of N between September 1 and December 1. Mulch mows. Neighbor #2 uses organics. Applies 1# of N via Milorganite every two weeks between April 15 and May 15. Applies 1# of N via Nature Safe every 2 weeks from May 15 to July 15. Applies 20lbs/m of alphalfa on August 1. Applies 1# of N via Nature Safe every 2 weeks from September 1 to October 1. Applies 1# of N via Milorganite every 2 weeks during October. Applies 2# of N via Milorganite at Thanksgiving. Neighbor #1 states that the grass clippings and the one annual application of Milorganite is sufficient to provide all the microbial activity necessary to sustain and efficient and healthy lawn. Neighbor #2 states that you can neither apply too much organic fertilizer (short of smothering the lawn) nor have too robust and diverse soil web. #2 states that any excess nitrogen produced by the abundant application of OM is simply stored by the expanding micro-organism web until needed. Both point to their 6+ and 8+ year old beautiful lawns as proof. My only question is: Which neighbor is correct?
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Skid steer: Itsa cow that he uses to pull stuff around (kind of like a cheap ox), but as you can see, Lloyd only had $11 to spend, so he had to buy one with worn hooves, thus the poor traction thing. I didn't just drop 11 large on a loader for my compost (you go, Lloyd!) but I am mildly envious of Lloyd's easy/immediate access (because he OWNS the darned thing) to the equipment. I'm sure as heck not going to look at his (I'm sure) hard earned acquisition as having stolen the food from someone else's mouth (or as having deprived them of their flat screen TVs and iPods). I guess that puts me squarely in the camp of those believing there is nothing wrong with wanting to retain a little fruit of your own labor for yourself instead of being forced to distribute it amongst those with PERCEIVED need. That whole Marx thing - "Jeder nach seinen Fhigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedrfnissen!" doesn't have the same ring of clarion call for all, I guess. Humic acid and fulvic acid CAN indeed immediately enrich certain soils w/o the addition of other organic matter or a history of having added OM. I'm not saying what the OP is considering is wise or not wise. He can decide exactly how HE wants to spend HIS money, but if the product isn't a pig-in-a-poke, it has the potential to benefit the soil and by extension, his plantings. Following, is something I wrote on the container gardening forum, so it will be slightly OT in areas because of it's 'container' bent, but there should (hopefully) be some info in it worth considering. Humic acid (HA) is formed during the humification process (decaying/composting) as plant and animal matter break down. The main source of HA is lignin, which is the most common bio-compound on earth next to cellulose - it's what makes plants stiff. As the organic matter breaks down, it forms several acids called carboxylates and phenoxides. While there are several acids formed during the breakdown of organic matter, While there are several acids formed during the breakdown of organic matter, the acids formed by a variety of decaying vegetable matter end up being pretty much the same group of acids in the same proportions. Further, it's not the acids formed during humification that vary with any significance, it's the compounds they form with free ions when mixed into (primarily) mineral soils. It's easy to envision why that is true when we consider that all plants are made up of the same building blocks (nutrients/elements) in almost exactly the same ratio. IOW, there is little difference, chemically speaking, between sequoias and snapdragons. Also important to consider is that peat moss is made up of a combination of cellulose, lignins, and humic acids. This fact is probably what would allow any/all container media producers to lay claim to the fact that their product contains HA. As I mentioned upthread - advertisers often lay claim to things their research shows the general public might consider a huge plus, when it's an intrinsic part of all similar products. Shell Oil used to advertise that their gasoline contained lead to guard against spark knock, when in fact all gasoline used to contain lead. If I thought a little, I'm sure I could quickly come up with another dozen examples more current. I'll leave an answer I posted to a thread on the container forum back in Nov '08. The question posed was, "Does humic acid serve any purpose for container plants?" I drew a delineation between mineral soils and container media primarily because the immense volume of organic matter in almost all container media. This would even include the gritty mix, which has a 1/3 organic component - roughly 6-10 times what you would find in most natural and garden soils. Hopefully, we have built or are using container media with a suitable structure, but even if we were not, the type of structural improvements usually associated with the use of HA in mineral soils do not apply to container media. Where container media is concerned, if the structure is not there from the beginning, the only way you can add it is by adding enough soil particles of the size required to physically achieve your objective, You cannot change container media structure by adding HA or its associates. The reply to the question (about plants in containers) I mentioned a little upthread: "Humic acid (and its accompanying fulvic acid) are most often used as an amendment to improve the quality of clay soils, sandy soils, and/or other soils organically deficient. The primary value of adding humic acid to clay or other compacted soils comes from the resulting structural break-up (increase in friability) of these soils. Obviously, this should not be an issue in the soils you are using. In sandy soils, humic acid's value is in its addition of organic material to soils, which would also in the end improved water retention and root function, neither of which are anything you would be lacking in the soils you use. In some soils, humic acid can also play another role in facilitating a plant's ability to assimilate nutrients. Humic acid can lower pH and help unlock otherwise bound nutrients in the soil that might not be unavailable under conditions of higher pH. Again, this should not be an issue for you, given the fertilizer regimen you use and a known favorable pH. Finally, humic acid can stimulate soil micro-biology in some soils, increasing the numbers and activity levels of soil micro-populations, the primary function of which are to make available minerals and nutrients which could be stored within the humic acid complex and hopefully available on an 'as needed' basis. Again, not much of a benefit when you consider you're supplying a full compliment of nutrients in a readily available form on a regular and 'as needed' basis. I suppose if I was to sum it up, I would say that a build-up or adequate measures of humic acid in garden soils is to be desired & most effectively accomplished by the regular addition of organic materials to the soil. How valuable wholesale applications of humic acid are to garden soils is probably highly variable by soil type, soil composition, and the intrinsic quality/value of the individual product at hand. It's value in containers would probably be extremely marginal at best or go completely unnoticed (as it did when I tried the product for my container plantings several years ago) but there's nothing to stop you from trying it." Al
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howelbama
Original Author
11 years ago
calistoga,

I'm not suggesting that the size of the container moves it out of the container category, only that things become more stable in a closed system (container), the larger that system is. Assuming that the life (number of plants, etc...) in that system is not overcrowded.
jodik_gw
11 years ago
It is my belief, using science, physics, and a lifetime of experience as my "sources", that organic methods are best saved for the garden beds... while a more inorganic approach works much better for plants confined to containers, regardless of the size... for one simple reason: the same environment that mother nature provides in our garden beds, the ground, is not present within the confined space of a container and what it must contain to maintain healthy root systems.

Mother nature provides an army of creatures, both large and small, that all work in conjunction to break down organic matter into usable food for plants.

Within containers, this same army of creatures is not present, nor is it possible or feasible to try to duplicate and keep balanced. Therefore, feeding organic plant foods that are not completely broken down and immediately usable is a worthless enterprise.

And that is my opinion on the issue, based upon many years of trial and error, and finally learning the solid science behind it all.

It can be as complicated or as easy as you want to make it. I was incredibly lucky to have found tapla, who took all the complication and broke it down into easy to understand terms for the layman. The article, the main one, is usually positioned on the first page here, within this forum. It's entitled "Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention", and I believe it's up to its 14th time of being renewed, as the most popular and educational article.

Happy Growing!
fortyonenorth
11 years ago
I find it challenging to grow organically in
emgardener
11 years ago
12 cu ft = ~80 gallons. Wow those are big containers!

My completely organic, 18 gallon totes are wonderfully successful. I too enjoy wonderful vegetables from a zero-cost worthless enterprise.

I prefer the scientific method of experimentation, observation, and recording results.

A lot of good reasons are shared on this forum on why organics aren't good for containers, but I've just decided to try every method and see which does best in my climate with my watering system.

Over 15 years of growing I've tried hydroponics, SWCs, 5:1:1, gritty type mix, foliage pro, organic fertilizer and organic mixes, ...

My best results so far are with organic mixes (leaves and forest mulch). This is partly due to the fact that these mixes are more robust, because the plants are more able to deal with water stress (and transplant shock) in an organic mix than in a synthetic mix. My watering method is a timed drip system which is not ideal for a 5:1:1 or gritty mix in a dry climate.

Just posting this so some people won't be scared off from trying organics if they are looking for advice.
prestons_garden
11 years ago
You can have success either way as long as you understand the concept.

Read, read and read some more. Then get outdoors and enjoy learning the ups and downs of a great hobby, gardening.

Have a nice day,
Ron
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
11 years ago
Here's my take: It's not that you can't grow healthy plants in containers while trying to be as 'organic' as possible, using soil amendments and other nutritional supplementation methods that would qualify you to lay title to being strictly organic - you can. I think though, to do it well, the learning curve is much steeper and the likelihood of problems relative to nutrition greater. Additionally, unless you understand watering technique and managing water retention well, that can often be an additional problem because most growers that want to be 'organic', usually want to use a large measure of compost and other pine matter as a primary fraction of their soil, which we have seen thousands of times to be an issue especially difficult for beginners to deal with.

Finally, a grower can institute a nutritional supplementation program in 5 minutes that ensures immediate delivery of a full compliment of nutrients normally derived from the soil, and be sure what and how much is available, and when. When depending on the breakdown of organic soil ingredients, such is not the case, so there is a greater degree of speculation and guesswork that makes it very difficult for even skilled observers to pinpoint nutritional disorders that might occur.

It's easier using synthetics, and they eliminate a significant amount of guesswork. It's also easy to straighten out a problem supplementation program when using synthetics, but it's extremely difficult to try to tell someone what to do to correct nutritional problems when they are depending almost entirely on the breakdown of soil components for their plants' nutritional needs.

Al
TheMasterGardener1
11 years ago
I could not agree more with what everyone said!!!

When it comes to container gardening I now use all in-organic fertilizer.
capoman
11 years ago
I guess part of the issue is why do organics in containers when I think we can agree that organic is much more difficult in containers?

Some think organic is healthier. I don't buy that. Plants use the same nutrients and don't care what the source is.

If the reason is environmental, which is the real reason for organic, it makes total sense in the ground, but not so much in containers, where run off is minimal, and we are not preserving a soil food web. I use synthetics in containers, and organic in ground. Best of both worlds.
fortyonenorth
11 years ago
Capo - I don't want to challenge your opinions, but I'd like to add a couple comments.

Some think organic is healthier. I don't buy that. Plants use the same nutrients and don't care what the source is. The connection between soil health, plant health, and human health is a poorly understood area of science and one that will become increasingly critical in the future. Synthetic fertilizers simply do not offer the spectrum of nutrients available through organic sources. Sure, plants grow well enough on a diet of NPK + macro and micronutrients. But that limits the nutritional value of the crop. If you're growing a Japanese maple, that's not a chief concern, but with regard to plants destined for human consumption, it's an important point. The trouble is, so much of the research is focused on crop yields, that crop quality is given short shrift.

it makes total sense in the ground, but not so much in containers, where run off is minimal Properly used, field-applied fertilizers are not a major source of pollution - certainly not at the home garden level. Phosphorus, which is of primary concern, is very immobile - moving through the soil profile at only about 1/4" per year. At the same time, phosphorus which leaches out of containers is prone to become a source of pollution because it is not being incorporated into the underlying soil. If you are growing on hard surfaces - driveways, patios, decks, etc. this is doubly true - it will be carried by rainwater into the sewer system and beyond.
jolj
11 years ago
tapla let me know if i am wrong here.
I double dig my in ground beds & add compost for years to come. Will leaves these beds to my children to garden.
But the new fad raised beds with to tilling, but cardboard bottoms & mostly store bought soil/compost mix are above ground container of a kind. I do not have them, but have heard they work well.
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
11 years ago
Are you maybe referring to raised beds or lasagna gardening?

Al
capoman
11 years ago
Fortyonenorth: Organics still have to mineralize nutrients which is basically the same forms used in synthetics before plants can use them. I've seen no evidence that organics are more nutritious so far.

As far as synthetics on soil, I do agree that they can be used in a responsible way, especially in the home garden.The real issue is commercial growing, where synthetics are used with insufficient organic materials, causing degradation of the soil, and requiring even more synthetics as time passes increasing runoff. For the home gardener, it is very easy to go 100% organic and not requiring any synthetics.

As far as container runoff, my point is that it takes far less fertilizer on a per plant basis in containers then in the ground. I agree that people should not run off into a sewer. I let mine run off into grass, and don't even see any difference in growth from areas that don't see container run off.

Organic vs Synthetic debate :)

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dirtguy50 SW MO z6a

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