Hi Carrieann - you have set yourself a very ambitious project. But you are also setting some complex roadblocks up for yourself. ;) Since the one thing that discourages so many new gardeners and makes them give it up is the roadblocks they create along the way, I hope you won't mind if I discuss those first.

1) a 4x4 bed is problematic for several reasons. Consider going instead with a 3x6 foot bed. Easier to construct and much easier to use and also more productive. It's also easier to enlarge later if you decide to do so.

2) don't limit yourself so much on the building materials. Sometimes we read too much up front and only confuse ourselves. Since it is impossible to find the "perfect" material, the search for it will prevent you from having a garden this year. Just use what you can afford and can easily get to build it now to get yourself started. It can always be changed later. The new treated lumber formula is considered safe to use in gardens as is the plastic woods. Concrete block is also easy to do and lasts for years. The pH problem is not the blocks, it is the soil, and you will be filling it with a good quality mix (that is where your $$$ needs to go) so that problem is resolved.

3) this first year keep your production expectations limited. That way you can avoid the discouragement that comes from too high expectations. This first year should be considered a learning year - learn about what fits where, what pests or diseases you might have to deal with, what will need to be changed next year, what works best in your garden, how to garden with kids, and what you like and dislike.

4) do some extensive reading over on the SQ. Foot Gardening forum on what to fill your bed with. This is vital to success. Just plain old yard dirt doesn't work. So check out the Mel's Mix variations they discuss there. Check out the Container Gardening forum too for more recipes on soil mixes.

THEN you can decide what and how much of your list you can grow and where. ;) My personal recommendation would be to plan on the watermelon going somewhere else as it would use up too much space in such a small bed. Remember that you will be growing UP, not out so in a 3x6 bed you could plant 4 tomato plants (pruned) and 2 pepper plants on stakes on one row, a row of bush beans, 2 cuke plants with cages to climb, 2-3 broccoli plants, and 2-3 squares of carrots.

Hope this helps and I wish you great success with your garden.

Dave

Thanks Dave, I think getting out of the 4x4 square sounds like a great plan. It will fit great and free up more space for the kids actually. I guess I was stuck on the 4x4 because the contrete blocks come 16 inches and the math worked out for 3 blocks on each side, I dont know that I would want it 6 ft long though, I need to leave room for my compost. I was given the idea to create 2 beds (1 for garden and 1 for compost and then switch next year and plant in the one where I did the compost. How does that sound to you? I want to start a compost either way in that area but I thought that sounded easy, cost effective and good way to keep the kids out of the compost area. So back to the math of getting the blocks to fit a 3x something bed and see what I come up with. I think I will like having more than the 4 squares I had planned on on the north side for the trellis since I tend to like stuff that grows up :) I am open to any other suggestions and I will go check out the area on square foot gardening, thanks. I got the book from the library and plan to use the Mel's Mix. Thanks again for the help.

Dave has given you some great advice. I second his advice on tempering expectations, but I would add that it is a great experience to share with the kids. Try to add a few containers with flowers to keep them engaged and interested when everything else is "just growing". I think you will find you will learn alot as you are trying to teach them. Make sure you understand, and then teach, the importance of soil management.

And this leads me to the one major criticism I have with Mel Bartholomew (proponent of Square Foot Gardening): he emphatically states that once you have the Mel's Mix in place, you don't have to worry about soil biology. While Mel's Mix is great (albeit expensive), knowing the soil food web and how the biology underground is working will make you a much, much better gardener. It is repeated many times over, but the effective gardener feeds the soil first, and then the soil will feed the vegetables.

It sounds like you have already been doing your reading and homework, so keep up the good work!

Michael

Thanks Micheal, I will do some reading on the soil topic. I am always up for learning something new.

I did the math and measured out in the yard and I think I am going to go ahead and try out a 3x6 bed. Thanks Dave :)

Now I need to figure out where to keep my compost and if i want an enclosure like another bed or something else. I have some space behind our garage that isn't used for anything (we may put a small shed back there but there will still be room) so I am wondering if at first I should just try to compost using to piles, no fancy containment for it. But what I dont know (need to read up on it) is if it matters if my compost is in the sun or shade. We have a big pine tree of some sort (not sure of different kinds but I drops its needles on the ground) and it provides a lot of shade and the garage is on the other side of possible compost area so it is mainly all shade. Thanks for the help so far.

I'm sure you can have a compost pile in the shade. Its heating action comes from the working of the bacteria and "chemicals" that get percolating, not the sun. But of course you can put just about anything organic in a black plastic bag and leave it in the sun for a few weeks, and whatever it is will eventually make great compost. This by anaerobic action!

I really like your idea of having two garden spaces though, one for growing and one for composting, then switching each year.

One more note:
The list that you have made to grow in a 3 ' by 6' is too much, unless you want just one or two of each.
The math behind it is that you will have just 18 sqr-ft. garden area. Some plants like peppers, tomatoes will need close to
two square foot. Say, you want to have 5 tomatoe and 5 pepper plants, your capacity is almost full.

Yes, I only planned on planting 1 of each type of tomato so 2 or 3 plants total and 1 of each pepper, 2 plants total. I am mainly the only one eating tomatoes and peppers and last year my 2 tomatoes and 1 pepper were enough. I plan to do more of the beans and carrots since all 4 of eat those and possibly more than one cucumber. Since I can put more than one in each square foot I will fill it up. In my book about squarefoot gardening it says peppers take 1 square but I cant find tomatoes in there. My tomato plants got out of control last year so I think I need to do some pruning this year. Thanks.

You might possibly want to change your bush beans to pole beans to grow UP. It will save some room.
I have very little luck with carrots and they are so cheap I've given up on them.
You might look into some kid friendly (also adult!) things that can be munched on right in the garden like sungold tomatoes (golden SWEET cherry tomatoes) and sugar snap peas.
Nothing better than eating your way through the garden! And that is what kids remember!

Thanks nancyjane. I will be going out seed shopping soon I hope (waiting for the kids to get over a cold) Sugar snap peas would be great. My 4 yr old loves those in her salad too and it is so expensive to buy fresh ones. thanks for the tip on pole beans as well.

I agree with nancy_gardener about the pole beans. They produce more in less space than bush beans. My first year I was a little intimidated by pole beans. I was worried I would have to affix them to the pole somehow. Out of curiosity and because variety is the spice of life I tried Kentucky Wonder Pole beans after a few wonderful bush bean harvests. I was blown away by how easy they grow up the pole or fence all by themselves. They have little tendrils that wrap around the pole or fence. They produce more in less square feet of space because you get to incorporate the third dimension of height to your length x width. The cucumbers do the same thing if you allow them to grow near a fence or pole they will grow up with similar looking tendrils. Plus by growing upward the produce does not rot sitting on the ground. In my opinion two or three tomato plants produce a lot of tomatoes. Consider staggering your planting. It's an easy way to increase your production and to use your space efficiently. Usually, people don't need twenty or thirty tomatoes a week for a month and then no more. It is preferable and more efficient to have seven to ten tomatoes a week for three months. As the oldest crops decline you cull them to make space for the next crops. You keep plants at three stages: 1. seedlings (in trays) 2. saplings (in pots or the ground) 3. mature (in the ground). Use a calender and a map of your garden to plan roughly where things will go and the order in which everything will be planted. Plan ahead. Good luck. You can do it.

Thanks woodyguthriefan,

I had a plan in mind for my tomatoes, cucumbers and beans to be on the north side of the garden so I could put my trellis all on that side and let them all climb so after the other post about my bush beans I went back to the receipt of the seeds I ordered to double check and my mistake I did buy pole beans yay! And as a bonus they are the ones your are recommending, Kentucky Wonder Pole beans. I ordered some of my seeds online (Free offer so why not try some organic seeds for free)

So I have already started my tomato seeds (I have more though) so to stagger my planting do I start more seeds in a couple weeks for stage two of the tomatoes?

In my opinion, if you are only planting 2 or 3 tomato plants, there is no reason to stagger them. I am in zone 7 North Carolina, so my growing season is likely different than yours, however, my tomatoes grew and produced all summer long and into the fall some, not just 1 month. Plus the tomatoes you are planning to grow are 3 different types used for 3 different purposes (roma, slicing, cherry) so it is ok to have some of all at the same time. Do check to make sure if the tomato varieties you are growing are determinate or indeterminate. Indeterminate tomatoes can easily be trellised 1 per square foot by keeping the suckers pruned as it grows upwards. Tomatoes do not grow onto a trellis by themselves like beans do - as they grow, you weave them in and out up the trellis. I have left about a little over a foot of room behind my trellis that I can walk behind it and tend to my trellised plants from the back side.

In fact, my garden interior dimensions are approx 18 feet x 2.75 feet (31-32 inches). I have that 32 inches divided into 3 squares - 12 inches, 12 inches, and 7-8 inches deep for the back square where my trellis is. My trellis sits about 3-4 inches in from the back garden edge over the middle of my 8 inch square. This was plenty of space for my tomatoes planted one plant per 8" deep x 12" wide square last year. I did keep them pruned to one main vine only.

I have read that sugar baby watermelon can easily be trellised. I have those seeds myself and will be trellising them this year. I will also note that I have a very strong trellis. I will be growing the following on my trellis ... peas, tomatoes, watermelon, cantaloupe, honeydew (if I can ever find any seeds!), cucumber, blackeye peas (cowpeas). Peas and beans are planted on the trellis in 2 rows of 4, one row on each side of the trellis, all in one square foot, which will give you 8 bean plants per square foot. Cucumber is planted 2 per square foot in one row along the trellis. Unless you are pickling cukes, I think 1 or 2 plants is plenty. If you do 2 squares of beans, 1 square of cukes, and 3 squares of tomato, that is your 6 feet of trellis. However, here is an idea ... you were going to originally have 2 beds of 4x4, I am assuming they were side by side ? If so, could you do one bed of 3x8 ? There is no such thing as too much trellis in my opinion ! With 8 feet of trellis, you could also trellis your sugar babies. If you do not trellis the watermelon, I think you should plan on putting it elsewhere, as they take up a lot of room on the ground. Or possibly plant it in a corner of the bed and sprawl it outside of the bed.

Assuming 3x6, with your 6 squares of trellis planned for, that leaves 12 squares ... I recommend the following ... plant your 2 pepper plants in the middle row next to the tomatoes on your trellis. The 10 remaining squares can all be broccoli and carrots and the watermelon. Staggered planting for those would be good. I have read online to plan for 5 to 10 broccoli plants per person and 20 to 40 carrots per person. Obviously, you will not have room for all that, so do what you can. Mel recommends 16 carrots per square. My carrot packages call for 2-3" spacing between carrots which would be 36 carrots per square on 2" spacing (6 rows of 6) or 16 carrots per square on 3" spacing. Last year, I think anniesgranny planted on 1.5" spacing at 64 carrots per square !! She harvested some of them as baby carrots though and reported great results. Watermelon will likely yield 1-2 melons per plant.

This is also my first year for broccoli. I have read that once you cut the first head, more little ones will sprout from the cut area. Broccoli & carrots are spring/fall veggies, while all of your others are summer veggies. In the south, we have a definite spring season and a very hot summer season which does not work for broccoli & carrots thru the summer. My broccoli will be done by about June 1, at which point I will put something else in that space (bush beans) and then in the fall I will plant the cool weather crops again. You grow girl website has a seed planting chart based on last frost date that is easy to use ... http://www.yougrowgirl.com/grow/, click on The Lazy Gardener's Seed Starting Chart.

For companion planting, this website has a long descriptive list http://www.ghorganics.com/page2.html. If you do end up using cinder blocks, a lot of people use the holes in the blocks to plant other things like herbs, flowers, onions, etc. Be sure to calculate the width of the blocks in your plan to account for what the interior dimensions of your garden will be. My bed is built with 4x4's of treated lumber and 2x8's of untreated lumber. I do not have an answer on the slugs question, as I luckily did not have a problem with them.

I have just started my first compost bin this year as well, so am not speaking from authority, but I think there is no problem with compost being in the shade from what I have read. Mine is, so I really hope it is fine ! You can build a free compost bin by using shipping pallets (find for free on craiglist) and tie them together with wire coat hangers. It also looks pretty nice in my opinion with the boards oriented vertically. Do a google search for compost bins made from pallets.

Finally, check out the square foot gardening forum on gardenweb and also read the FAQ's for that forum. Sorry this reply is sooooooo long ! : )

Wow, thanks Angela. That was a lot of info :) This sentence sparked a question..."Peas and beans are planted on the trellis in 2 rows of 4, one row on each side of the trellis, all in one square foot, which will give you 8 bean plants per square foot. " Where exactly does your trellis sit? What is it made out of? If there are 2 rows on each side is it on top of the bed? I planned on mine being right up next to it with nothing on the other side although The idea of using both sides of the trellis is interesting. Thanks for the links as well.

Yes, my trellis is over my bed. It sits about 4 inches into my bed, so I can plant 1 row of 4 in front of the trellis with a couple inches in between that the trellis runs between and 1 row of 4 on the backside of the same section of trellis. So basically, all 8 plants grow up the same 1 foot section of trellis. It's hard to tell in the picture below, but this is what it used to look like. This year I have expanded my bed some because last year it started at about 32" wide on one end and ended at just over 24" wide at the other end. We were just too tired to do anymore, LOL. I have also extended my trellis all the way to the end of my bed this year, so I will have 18 feet of trellis.

The trellis is made from metal pipes. We were very lucky in that it came with the house when we bought. We think they used it for firewood. You can see it is made like a box or rectangle. Only the front side of it sits over the garden. The back legs of the trellis sit outside of the bed and I do not use the back legs. I can step in between the front & back legs to get behind the trellis. The extension is made out of electrical pipe (looks like PVC, but it is gray). The actual strings part of the trellis is nylon trellis netting that I attached with zip ties. It is soft like yarn, not hard like plastic or fishing line. It is made of high-quality nylon and will maintain 60% of its original strength after 20 years in the sun. This heavy-duty nylon netting has a 60 lb. breaking strength that will support extremely heavy crop loads.

One of the manufacturers ... http://www.gardeneer.com/nettingfencing/b1_trellisnet.html
This is where I bought it ... http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/category/garden-trellis-netting

After an extensive internet search, I listed the best prices I found in the following thread ...
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/sqfoot/msg0623341120512.html
When I bought it, it was on sale for $13.50 for the 60 foot long netting. The regular price is $18.00

{{gwi:28770}}

It's good to see so many awesome suggestions for you carrieann0413! The only thing I would add is a note on the gardens size. I believe one reason a 4x4 garden to be so popular is the dimensionality of the lumber used for traditional SFG. A 4x4 bed is just 2 pieces of 8' lumber or 16 linear feet. It's easy, just two cuts in the middle of each board and then fasten the corners. The 8'lumber is generally easier to haul and manage, but often times you will find that a 16' board is cheaper than buying 2 8 footers (and most big stores will cut your lumber for you). The problem with a 3x6 bed is that most stores typically carry lumber lengths of 8',10',12' and 16' which means you will most likely have some waste left over with a total of 18 linear feet. No biggie at all, Im just a penny pincher.

I have a raised-bed garden installation business and we use only 2x12 yellow pine lumber for our gardens. With a depth of 11 1/4" we get a lot more room than other lumber sizes and southern yellow pine is the strongest softwood lumber species, making it last longer outside. Best of luck!

Okay, here's my take on gardening with children. (I don't have children, but I was the child of a gardener.) Start slow and small. You had fun with the peppers and tomatoes. That's wonderful. But I fear that by turning this into a monster project, the fun will be sucked out of it. Why not add a couple more vegetables in large containers? Containers are easy to take care of and they are "child sized" gardens. You can plant a tomato, some lettuce, some marigolds (I learned to plant seeds by tucking marigold seeds carefully into the soil, one at a time), and each child can have a "garden" or two of their own to tend. As you get bitten by the bug and your children get older and more (genuinely) helpful in the garden, you can expand. The goal is to have fun with it so that you do it forever. JMO, of course. Whatever you decide, I hope you have a great summer and a great garden. Good luck!