I won't post mine, but it is based from standard language used in design contracts. A good place to start would be to google AIA, or American Institute of Architects, along with the word "contract" and see it some examples pop up. I blended many different different contract "blurbs" into an appendix that is attached to my design contracts. I got some from a landscape architect professional practice text book (Ready, Set, Practice - by Sharky)and melded it with things that I saw in contracts by others. They all seem to be almost verbatum language from the American Institute of Architects standards.

I write my contracts stating what area of a property that I will be addressing, then an overview of the input that was given to me on what the client's wishes are, then a numbered list of things that I am going to do and what documents that I am going to produce (including size of paper and how many sheets). This is followed by a price quote and terms of payment along with a note that states that anything not described in this contract is to be billed hourly. The hourly rates are in the appendix also.

Its amazing how well people stay within the terms of the contract when they know how much more it will cost to deviate.

The appendix has descriptions of these:

Compensation for Services (list of hourly rates for design, travel, clerical, ...

Reimbersible expenses (postage, long distance calls, copy fees, ...

Payment Schedule & Terms (when I send bills, interest, etc, ...

Imdemnity & Responsibilities (things that are not my responsibility - like paying for other needed professionals like structural engineers, or poor work done by contractors, or a poor base map because of an inaccurate survey by others, ....)

Use of Documents (This is the one you are after)

Termination or suspension (basically spells out how the terms of the contract should one or both parties decide to terminate the relationship - sort of a Pre-nup)

Maddog,

Send me an email on my member page and I will send you what I have under "Use of Documents".

thanks laag, still looking for information on the web

Hey Laag, just getting back to this. I met with the contractor who had a brilliant idea that he needed to hang up color rendered designs at his booth in a local home show. Well I am sure this has happened to many designers, I am going to post my experience so designers might be wary if this happens to them. This is sort of why I was looking for the contract to handle this sort of thing.

In any event it became quickly apparent to me that this dude was trying to promote himself SELFISHLY. Amazingly he even thought I should give him my drawings for free because I could possibly get design work out of the show. Now you can imagine I was cringing ready to strangle him. I told him I need to benefit from my design creations in every way shape and form. And prostituting my work is not going to benefit me.

I tried the method Socrates used on his disciples to make him understand his own ignorance.

I gave him the following examples at first diplomatically, then later not so much.

Hypothetically speaking - lets say a client at the home show walks up to your booth and looks at the color rendered design appearing on paper. They say I really like the shape and design of that stoop, patio, walkway or whatever in plan. Can that be built at my house? I do not need a full scale design just want a stoop built.

So, now I said what happens when you go to build this stoop are you going to call me and tell me you owe me some money for this job you got based on the clients attraction to the drawing they saw at the show. What do you think?

So I went on to say many small jobs like a walkway or a stoop may not need a design drawing and what happens in these cases? Deer in the headlight look! Continuing with the hypothetical, the client has inquired about your service as a direct result of something they liked in the color rendering. I NEED to benefit from this, how do you propose I am going to benefit? Deer in the headlight look!

In his mind of course he thought the client would be drawn to his beautiful masonry set up, and that NO VALUE drawing would just be a piece of no value art ornamenting his beautiful masonry. He just didn't get it or understand his own arrogance.

I am here to tell you that, how many masons can conceive of a stoop or hardscape design as we designers put in our plan?

I did not want to be offensive but when I showed him the pictures of a stoop or patio in my drawings, I was saying HELLO, do you really think you could design that? And further I was saying the client would be interested in the style of stoop or patio as it appeared in design on paper and then inquire, causing him to get a job based on something that is not his. A creative designer developed that hardscape concept and that is what directly attracted a potential client to inquire about actual work. Again how do you propose that I am going to benefit from hanging my work at your booth at the home show? Especially in small case scenarios.

I did say I appreciate your thoughtfulness, in that you think you are trying to help me get work. But this is not how I do business, I am plenty busy and have no problem getting work of my own. Further the people I work with are interested in partnerships for mutual benefit - NOT unilateral gain. Needless to say, I ended the meeting by saying DUDE this conversation is over!

So designers beware of wolves in sheeps clothing trying to partner with you for mutual benefit. Its a nice thought but getting at ulterior motives often reveals ugly greed.

I actually did a similar thing for a contractor's flower show booth, but he was up front about why he wanted the drawing. I took his sketch of what he was doing and drew it up, plotted it on 24x36 bond, and rendered it. His logo got the big spot in the title block, and I gave myself a smaller "drawn & rendered by ....." And, I charged him going rate for my drafting and rendering services. Yes, he got a lot of compliments and gave my card out to a number of homeowners and contractors, but so far my phone hasn't rung... so I'm glad I didn't do it gratis.

Maddog, I'm glad you trusted your instincts. In my case, by charging full price for the plan, the guy owns it. If he chooses to deceive people into thinking he's capable of what I did, he'll fall flat on his face soon enough. My guy recognized that to bump his image up in the eyes of higher-end buyers, offering this can help. If it works, great, he and I will partner on more work. If not, hey, I got mine.

Jeez, coffee makes me ramble. Point being: treat it like any other design, use your standard design agreement, and get paid like any normal client.

Dave

marcinde or Dave, exactly, you did the right thing. When I told this guy I could produce a fictitious drawing for the show, (because I do work for contractors their is a confidentiality issue, I wouldn't pull out a drawing from file) at cost. He became irate, thinking I was trying to rip him off. How ironic rite? Who was doing the ripping?

The moral of the story I guess, is you have to try to build strong partnerships based on mutual trust. The fact that your guy gave your card out is a good thing and shows you have a trustworthy partnership. For the rest of us being approached by numbskulls who claim that they want to promote you - just be wary. Continue the questioning until you find out what it is they really want.

Hey now, you have to remember something, too. You and I can draw plans 'til the cows come home, but if there are no skilled craftsmen to build them our drawings are completely worthless. A good craftsman can put things together without us a lot more easily than we can without them. You have to be a bit careful that you do not let pride overcome common sense.

Yes, your designs do have value and it is easy for someone to incorporate them as a marketing tool. A craftsman can demonstrate his ability to build a well designed step by showing not only the built work, but how well he followed the design. Is that arrogance?

By the same token, a picture of the built steps to market your design ability is also using the talents of a craftsman who can do what you or I can not do in order to show how good we are. Why is this less arrogant?

One thing that we as designers get really hung up on is that we think that we are raped every time someone seems to get an idea from us. Then we hold everything so tight that we isolate ourselves. When you get right down to it, the work you did on those color renderings was done long ago. Hopefully you were paid for the work you put into them.

So, if those renderings were to lay in a dark drawer never to see daylight again, will that help you or benefit you in any way? I'd say not.

If they went to the trade show and you got no direct contract to do more design work, would you have lost something? I'd say not.

Could you gain by having your designs seen by many more people? I think so.

Could you gain by being supportive to a good craftsman who you might want to use again? I would think it would not hurt. It certainly did not help you establish a great mutual relationship with the mason by basically telling him he is nothing without your design. I'm not sure he'll be putting you high on his referal list when someone needs a designer.

Reputation is built by repetition. Some people would have seen your renderings. Some are potential future clients, others are other masons checking out this guys connections as well. Maybe none would take down your name, but if they see your renderings, or hear your name again and again and again, they recognize it. When they recognize it and associate it they are more likely to repeat it to someone who needs your services.

We live and thrive by being known. Some people go out of their way to deal with tv productions, magazine articles, interviews, teaching classes, displaying their work, even if it is a side bar to some other project, just to get more name recognition and association with good projects. Usually, the phone does not ring off the hook from doing one of these things, but over time people recognize.

Pride will kill you in this business. If someone wants a set of steps and wants to buy it off of the rack, they were never going to hire you in the first place. If you are too guardd people can not see the benefit of using your services. That will turn you into a starving asrtist very quickly.

I went to a local trade show yesterday. Roger Cook, landscaper on This Old House was the main speaker. Was he a well seasoned expert landscaper when he first got on that show? Was he getting a great pay check when he first got on that show? It is built with the help of recognition and opportunity created by that recognition. It is the same for me and you.

Give of yourself especially when there is no real reason to fear that you are giving something up. The return is slow at first, but it builds momentum very quickly.

I don't know why you would not want to help this guy out, even if you got nothing in return. What did you really have to lose?

Bravo Laag. Well put.

laag- I think the issue at hand is that there was, if nothing else, the appearance of impropriety on the part of the contractor wishing to display the work- that is, would maddog get the proper credit for the work presented? I have a young pracice in a small town- you'd better believe I am out there showing my work to everyone who might someday be interested. But in this process, I make sure my work is being attributed to me. Now, the example I gave- I live in VA, this show was in a state 9 hours away and I wasn't going. I had no way of making certain that my work was going to be properly credited, so darn straight I wanted to be assured of some compensation!

It's not in my nature to hide my light under a bushel (although that may be thinking too highly of my skill). If I'm at a retail nursery or stone yard and see a bewildered-looking homeowner, I'll chat them up and help them out, maybe jot some plant recommendations on the back of my card. I agree, it's about getting your name out and establishing yourself as an authority. However, this is still a business, and you have to make certain that your labors are benefitting you, and not someone who had no part in them. Professional photographers who post there work online use digital watermarks, they write code so that if you try and right-click save the photo you get a useless narrow band... I agree 100% that people need to see what you do in order to begin to appreciate who you are as a designer; but if you don't take control of how your work is exhibited, who will? Is there anyone else out there who cares as much about your business as you do?

Dave

laag thanks for your viewpoint, however, this incident did not quite occur the way you are interpreting it.

Of course we as designers are out to forge strong partnerships with contractors - one hand washes the other. I happen to also be a mason - a craftsperson. But the issue isn't me deciding that crafstmen are incompetent as you seem to be suggesting. Sure there are many craftspeople who can develop a concept for a given space then being able to implement it. The reality is moreso, then not even great crafspeople struggle with the concept of handling spatial arrangements and then incorporating those arrangements into an overall property development plan. Craftspeople who can do it are also designers.

What I was getting at is that his line of thinking clearly was UNILATERAL, and that by using the socratic method, to follow the line of thinking to its logical conclusion- an ulterior motive was revealed. Not once did he ever say he was interested in working together to make some great things happen. And that is that, he was not interested in forging a strong partnership based on mutual trust. Only how he was going to promote himself with the use of color rendered drawings - to make it look as if he had done them.

I would rather have my drawings sit in the draw, then allow someone to use them for absolutely no gain to me. Like you said I already gained from them, thats why they are in the drawer. I think standing up for your principles and having integrity goes a long way to establishing respect. I am not too concerned that the world see the drawings, I am more concerned with mutual trust in partnerships and good quality designs that delight my customers.

And those who would listen to this person trashing me or whatever the case may be is not of my concern. I would not want to business with folks who can't see the benefit of mutual trust in a relationship anyway, they probably have the same selfish mentality.

And by the way Roger Cook's calculated move to appear on that show was one where he decided he would benefit. It can not be related to this experience. You or I or anyone appearing in a televised medium - obtain lots of exposure in ways a home show couldn't even touch. So you better believe in that case you do it at your own cost.

Again helping someone out is one thing, being used as a pawn is another. Go back to the example I gave you. If this person obtains a job as a direct result of a client seeing my work, but the job does not require a design, how do I benefit? Its a matter of business principle and not emotional pride.

Attribution is always an overriding consideration when situations such as this crop up. If the drawings are clearly labeled and signed as to the designer and are displayed so that anyone can see this, then it's pretty darn hard for anyone to pass them off as their own work.

I've encountered this myself, with a contractor who has a design/build firm. He published a new, full-color photo brochure promoting his business that featured one of my designs that his company installed, without assigning any credit or attribution. The implication was that this was part of his body of work, design incuded. And while I've worked with him on a number of projects, the threat of no further referrals on my part (and the word "lawsuit") caused him to reconsider how he approached this issue in the future. btw, I have not provided him with any more referrals since this issue surfaced. It may not make or break his business but he destroyed what had been a perfectly good mutual relationship. Once burned, twice shy.

It seems to me that you smelled a rat quite early on maddog so are you just looking for confirmation that you did the right thing? You did the right thing.
Accurate plans, that is not only an accurate representation of how the job will turn out but also accurate in the sense that prices can be drawn off it is an invaluable asset to client and contractor and binding contracts can be extracted from them. A pretty drawing will sell better. Your guy will go with the "We can make the garden you want, or do you want to have it drawn out and put out to bid which is costly or do you want my designer (pointing to your drawings) to work on the best deal for you with us?" Having said that connections and networking is what will make it work for you.

actually I was looking for precendent in the form of contract, so I could say read this and come back if your interested. My partner wanted to meet this contractor you are correct, the red flag was raised immediately for me. Networking is important but surround yourself with good people, ones who are like minded. Ones who understand the value of a strong partnership based on trust and respect. Those are the connections I have, a few of those are worth a 1000 of the other type.

I read what is up above (March 2, 2007, 7:21).

It sounds like the guy asked you if he could post your renderings. He could have just asked the client for copies or maybe he has some from the job. But, instead he came to you and asked.

"So I went on to say many small jobs like a walkway or a stoop may not need a design drawing and what happens in these cases? Deer in the headlight look! Continuing with the hypothetical, the client has inquired about your service as a direct result of something they liked in the color rendering. I NEED to benefit from this, how do you propose I am going to benefit? Deer in the headlight look!"

Well, you start by saying that they don't need your drawings, but then you end looking to get paid for the design you say they don't need. I've got that same deer in the headlight look right now, too.

You have every right to hold onto your work and protect it. I just think that you are hurting yourself far more by doing that than if you let it get seen. It should definitely be clearly labeled with your name in such a way that it can not be separated. You may get nothing from it, but you might get more known. If that mason got work that required design skills beyond his own, who was he going to call? And who would you have recommended for the installation?

This is publicity and networking. It is very strong well targeted marketing. All marketing has a price. If your design ability is so strong and unique, it is going to be hard to duplicate and people will look for you. If it is generic or anyone could do it, then it really is not of great value.

Exposure to people whom you would otherwise have little chance of coming into contact with has a greater chance of finding you work than of losing you work.

I just find it hard to see the mason as an arrogant shiftless person when he asked you if he could do this. I would expect that he has plenty of pictures of built work that are much more beneficial to marketing his work than someone's rendering of a step. His product is the built work. His potential clients are looking for built work. A rendering does not sell his abilities at all except to show that he can follow a plan. It does not take anything away from you and probably does very little to get him work if you really think about it.

Who would know who Socrates is if he needed to get paid each time someone repeated his philosophy? He let it flow and he is known thousands of years later because of it.

I would love my plans made into table clothes and sold in every Christmas Tree Shop on Cape Cod with my little stamp showing up on them here and there. Copy, copy, copy, but I'll get way more out of that recognition and still would shed no tear or have a rise in blood pressure if I got no direct work from it.

It just is not worth the stress.

Don't worry, be happy.

I offered you the direct language in my contract under "use of documents"(Feb 28, 07 at 20:28
), but you didn't want it (Mar 1, 07 at 5:06).
Oh, well.

one last time, the point was that when I got right down to it the person was not interested in forming a partnership based on mutual trust, which would have benefited both parties. He simply wanted to adorn his booth at the home show. never discussed philosophy as to why he wanted to do this and how a partnership could benefit him. all other points you are making, are agreed to and they are obvious commen sense points.

laag how do I gain access to that?

laag, what your suggesting is not how it works in the art world. Do you think Prince got paid for his song "Nothing Compares to You" when Sinead O'Connor used it to make herself an instant star? Do you think Andy Worhol got paid from the campbells company when they used his art work to adorn their cans of soup? In both cases the original artist got their compensation for their work. In your HYPOTHETICAL case the person who is using your artwork to adorn the table cloths etc, is making money for him at no cost other then you assuming you are going to get recognition from it. You may or may not get the recognition you deserved, you'll never know unless you think that the person you are dealing with is so magnanimous they are looking out for you bro. In any case the entrepreneur realized that your art work was valuable enough to turn it into table clothes because he new it would sell. You should also benefit from your work. is all I am saying bro, stand up for what is yours

All I'm saying is that pride will kill you in this business.

You compare yourself to Sorates, Prince, and Andy Worhol. You designed a set of set of steps. It is design and it may be art, but a rendering of a set of steps seldom gets hung in the Louvre and is worth the price of admission. These must be one hell of a set of steps. I'd love to see them, but I have to feed my family so I guess I won't.

Design is a service as well as an art. You can not sell things that you value more than those that you are trying to sell them to.

The art world works this way. A few people get fame and fortune, but most are waiters (I guess the new term is "server"). They wait on tables and they wait for their fame and their fortune as life passes them by.

I would not care if the table cloth was used by a restaurant owner who only used it because it was the cheapest one he could find. The important thing is not how many people who don't care and do not respect what we do see our work, but that some of those who might will have that opportunity. You keep going back to wanting everyone along the line respecting you. Some never will no matter who you are or what you do. Those people do not matter. What does matter is that those who do matter get the opportunity to know who you are. You passed that up.

We have discussions all over about giving ideas away when we do initial meetings with potential clients. A lot of designers think that everything they say has the potential to be stolen and they will be be losing something of great value. This is a very immature and arrogant way of thinking. Imagine having the ability to design and communicate such great ideas that any homeowner can hear your words and "poof" be able to hire a toothless knuckle dragger to build it for short money without you. Its not going to happen. It can be tried, but it will fail. Imagine trying to hire a designer who will not inspire you with descriptions and demonstrations of what they can do for you that others can't. That isn't going to happen either.

I used to be just like you. But I learned, over a long time, that holding on is holding out and that there are more peole who don't have the ability to respect you and you can't let them get in the way of those who will respect you.

When I walk a property with a potential client, I'll tell them any ideas that I have. I add one extra quality with it that I could not add years ago. That is that they absolutely know that it really is not going to wreck my day if I don't get their job and I don't care what ideas I gave them. That lack of arrogance (that probably never comes across in these forums) comes across as a lot of confidence and is what gets me my respect and gets people sold on me. Not everyone hires me. Some don't have it in the budget and I don't mind that because their are those others. And sometimes people who did not hire me recommend me. To think otherwise would make me a maddog too. Instead I am content and busy doing what I like doing on my own terms.

Relax.

PS. These are described as renderings. So, to the folks that are worried about him getting burned because someone is using construction details and specifications, these are renderings.

laag, i think you missed the point on all this and misinterpreted everything. no comparison was made to socrates, prince or worhol. just the use of his socratic method, the example of how prince made millions when sinead o'connor wanted to use that song sitting in his desk, and how andy worhol made billions by entering a partnership with a mutually respectful and mindful company campbells, when they realized his work would thrust their soup products into a brand that outcompeted all others.
relax bro this all started by asking for a contract

Yea, your right. I guess I do let things fly to freely and lose lots and lots of my valued hard work. One thing that I spent an aweful amount of time on and have tweaked several times since has been my contract and the wording in it.I was going to give you that section of my contract that covered "use of documents", bro.

Now I have come to realize that there is no benefit to me to do that and you'll only use it to protect yourself and your work. What would you do to protect mine? Nothing. When someone sees it and realizes that they can't exploit your work, you would not kick me back a few bucks. Nope, you'd just take my words and I'd get nothing out of it, bro.

But seriously, you should protect your work from being reused to a reasonable point. It is sometimes hard to know where that reasonable point is and a lot of people cling too strongly to things that really do not have high use when utilized by others. They don't want to "give away ideas" which are usually very basic concepts and without the details they really are not unique.

Concept sketches and renderings we tend to cling to very hard because we feel like we put our souls into them, especially early in the game. After a while, you come to realize that there are a gazillion designers out there who all think that their ideas are the most original and gifted ever. A heck of a lot of them have great talent.

Eventually, you realize that all of these things are out there in magazines, on tv, in advertisements, and on the internet. Then it dawns on you. If they see all these other renderings all over the place, could mine really be just like one of all of those others to the average Joe? Will my renderings sell the jobs for me, or someone who wants to exploit them, or does it take more than that?

Then you realize that the design renderings separated from the designer is, more often than not, much less valued. It is like a garden design, or step design for that matter, that is cut out of a magazine vs. having the actual designer design for you. The people who know this and have the resources and desire to hire a designer are not going to bypass the designer for some chump with a rendering. The people who would go for the chump with the rendering are not the same people who would hire you. If these people are one in the same, you have a long way to go before you will be able to make a living as a designer and your renderings would not be worth much.

That is why my conclusion is that any successful designer should not be that concerned over renderings or recycled plans. I don't think that I am alone on this revelation. But, I will admit that I did not feel that way at all until I had been around a while and saw other people who did not seem worried about it. They seemed to have some mystique about them that was very confident, yet not arogant. They just had a presence. When you put them in the same room with the egocentric designers, they make them look small by comparison, although they don't try. They get the good work.

I understand what you are saying about the successful designer. And I am sure that part of that mystique includes knowing who and when to partner up with someone that is like minded for mutual benefit. I am sure the successful designer doesn't give themselves away without attaining some kind of benefit first. There are many people out there who would no sooner take credit and profit from your work, then actually work hard to do something of value on their own. How does this type of relationship expose you in a positive way. That type of person is looking out for their own best interest and not yours. In the case where the designer said her work appeared on the contractors brochure without her consent, how was she going to benefit from that? He may or may not attribute that to her. All Iam saying bro is that in contract there should be language that deals with attribution and the like, and she should get paid for her contribution, the art work. A fair person would say hey I would like to use your art work and here is something to show I appreciate it. It doesn't matter how great wise and mysterious a designer is or how egocentric. No-one should ever be taken advantage of, and everyone should make sure they get due credit by assuring up front through contract or some type of agreement that they will receive compensation - yes I am suggesting you can buy a copy of the work to hang up on the booth at your homeshow. I wasn't saying that my drawing of a simple step was THE DRAWING OF THE AGES - a Dali, Picasso or Vangoh. Far from it. Simply trying to illustrate that I did not agree with this persons point of view on how my work could be used to benefit both of us. And used a hypothetical point, in a way that did not directly say you are trying to use me for personal gain dude and that is not how I do business. Because he never indicated or had any interest in doing future business, just getting by for the home show, that was his implicit message. Its one of those I guess you had to be there to experience the arrogance. Now had this been a trusted person this topic would never have came up. By using socratic method (nothing to do with comparing myself to socrates, just copy catting the way he reasoned) isn't it the case that a potential client at a homeshow could be attracted to the portrayal of the simple step in the drawing? And isn't it the case that this client could potentially ask the question -- can something like that be built at my house? therefore couldn't it be the case that the DRAWING itself was the cause of the customer inquiry and hence the landing of the small job that does not require a drawing? and how do we deal with this and other scenarios where you alone benefit from the drawings? of course he never thought about that and he was not interested in a future relationship. the line of questioning sort of made him realize his own fallacy in reasoning. alrite bro enough of this we are not going to see eye to eye on this, if you do not want to share your contract language that is fine by me. have a pleasant day

People easily understand the concept of investing cash in newspaper, tv, radio, mass mailings, and yellow pages to very large not well targeted groups. They put out cash to people who are not necessarily either like minded of interested in a mutually beneficial relationship.

Then the opportunity comes where no cash and simply the recycling of images of earlier work is the consideration for advertisement rather than cash. The advertisement is directed to a very specific group that is the exact demographic you need to target. The cost of this advertisement is that someone else is a rider on that ad. He may get work, you may get work, both might get work, none might get work. But the other guy has paid to enter a trade show or homeshow and is offering to bring you in to some degree by allowing him to get a little more attention with your renderings. That is what is known as guerilla marketing and is something a lot of people are making great efforts to do.

I think the mason is in fact offering to do something for you that is like minded and mutually beneficial and you are not seeing it. He did not ask you to split his entry fee for the show, did he?

Maybe you should offer to split the cost if you can be there and share the space with him. That would help both of you a lot and you would not feel like he was cheating you. Are you willing to put up the cash for that and share it with him the way he was going to with you for free?